Have we had enough Brad Smith yet?

[BRAWNDO]

Can we at least agree not to allow him to throw any more passes? 0 for 2 with two interceptions has done it for me.

[HamSandwhich]

Oh, so this is fun, so you went ahead and bumped up a thread to kind of say, "see I told you so?" Origional.

[T master]

He only gets on the field for a handfull of plays. The kick return game is no longer an important part of the NFL. The wildcat seems to be just a diversion and not a real yard gainer. Smith at reciever in my mind is as good as Roosevelt. I know Chan likes his versatility, but come on. That money could be spent on another quality reciever or an actual back up quarterback option. If Brad Smith has to come in to play our qb position, the year is over. Thoughts?

 

I had enough of him in the preseason i don't get why they keep him around , sure he is a athletic guy but get creative with him say do a reverse & have him throw out of that or something .

 

When he's in there every one knows what he is doing no guess work . Maybe they can package him & Fitz for a trade some where , just don't know who they could trade for J Campbell , M Moore ???

[NoSaint]

Oh so the defenders of Brad Smith must be working today, or maybe they have a hangover from such an amazing win. This game is a microcasm of why the WC shouldn't be used. Yeah you had a couple nice runs, but as was stated before could have probably come from our base offense. No scoring plays. CJ did have some bigger runs in the spread. And finally, Brad Smith did what every defender of the wildcat has been asking him to do for weeks, throw the ball. How did that work out? Its easy to put blame on Gailey for calling the play. It was dumb. It was dumb to have the WC on the field. You can blame Donald Jones for "not getting to the middle of the field" which was the excuse when Chan threw him under the bus as soon as he could. Way to take responsibility. If your a QB and you know the play is "supposed" to go to the middle of the field (which as you can tell I'm not sold on) then why in the HELL do you throw it outside? Is that the recievers fault? Throw the F***ing ball inside and make him adjust, not into double coverage. Brad Smith = waste of millions.

 

So you think that knowing everyone knew the play call he lied to the media to burn jones and protect himself? That's be a pretty high risk low reward move.

[Kevin]

Well, no actually. Some fans on here were calling for him in the GDT yesterday.

[mrags]

 

 

Smith is not worth his salary. But lets be clear here Gailey almost lost the game yesterday. On more than one hair brained call to.

"CHAN and his little wildcat boy almost cost us a game yesterday"

 

I didn't leave the MEGAIDIOT out of it.

[Captain Caveman]

Can we at least agree not to allow him to throw any more passes? 0 for 2 with two interceptions has done it for me.

 

I will agree to not let him throw anymore passes when we are trying to protect a lead and run the clock. But I don't actually have the power to make that happen.

[mrags]

Oh, so this is fun, so you went ahead and bumped up a thread to kind of say, "see I told you so?" Origional.

Ya. That's what I did. I thought maybe you and your 100 posts needed to see it since you just got here about 4 days ago. And probably missed it the first time it was posted. Get some posts kid.

[uncle flap]

Oh so the defenders of Brad Smith must be working today, or maybe they have a hangover from such an amazing win.

 

Nah, I just got to it this morning in the wildcat thread that was started yesterday.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/151409-wildcat/page__st__20#entry2599917

 

Besides, I already gave my thoughts in this very thread (post #112) and no one bothered to reply.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/150225-have-we-had-enough-brad-smith-yet/page__st__100#entry2570909

 

I'll sum up the main points if anyone's too lazy to click:

 

1. The Wildcat is productive.

 

2. Do people believe that the time spent on installing the Wildcat package is hurting the team somehow? Like Fitz will learn to throw if they just stopped practicing the damn wildcat so much?

 

3. Do people expect every wildcat snap to be a 40 yard run and/or a TD? The detractors sure act like it.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

I would say "Have we have enough of this play calling yet" ? What a ridiculous slap in the face to the rest of the Offense, even if it had worked.

[uncle flap]

I would say "Have we have enough of this play calling yet" ? What a ridiculous slap in the face to the rest of the Offense, even if it had worked.

 

Good. Fitz needs a slap.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

Good. Fitz needs a slap.

He actually needs "The Boot"

[mrags]

 

 

No, the complete opposite is true.

 

Maybe you don't like the wildcat so much because you don't understand it.

 

IMO, there are two valid arguments against using the wildcat: 1. The team doesn't have the personell, and 2. The package is proven to be ineffective over time (which would probably mean that the first argument is true).

 

On the first point, it seems to me that the Bills do have the personell. You or anyone would be hard pressed to convince me otherwise, though this point is certainly debatable.

 

On the second point, the Bills have not had a large enough sample to deem it ineffective. In fact, I'd argue if one looks at the production, it has shown to be pretty damn productive for the Bills, but again we are looking at a rather small sample size. I don't know if people are expecting every run to be 40 yards or a TD or something, but to act if there is some serious detriment to running the wildcat 5 or 6 snaps a game seems foolish to me, considering the success we've seen. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time I've felt many posters here aren't watching the same games I am.

I'll answer it. The points about if we have the personel or not and if it's effective or not are certainly up for debate. Over a sample size of just yesterday alone it seems that CJ was more effective than BS in the formation and that's what many WC haters are complaining about. BS is not good and we should just use one of our RBs instead. Sure BS got us more yards yesterday but he also threw a huge int that almost (should have) cost us a loss.

 

That's not normally true you say? I'm not doing the math here because it's not worth my time on such a useless facet of the game but I'm putting money on it that CJ has more yardage and success this year than BS does out of the WC.

 

FWIW, gimmick plays are often implimented for big plays. The reason for it is because they have a high failure rate (example of Brad Smiths throw yesterday). Even when they are runs for only a few yards they are more subject to fumbles and injuries because people are playing out of position and asked to block or do things they normally don't. So yes, a lot is expected of the WC If they are going to run it and honestly, it's been a dissapointment. However, the point you make is right. 4-5 times a game running the ball in the right situations would be fine and shouldn't negetively affect us. However, you can't watch that game yesterday and honestly say after that interception that we should have won. We gave the game away. Chan gave the game away. In a time where he should have been running the ball (and yes i would have even accepted a WC run play there) and killing the clock, he ran a pass playbfrom his 3rd string QB that hasn't attempted a pass in a game in over a year and when he did it was an INT. You don't put the rest of the team in a position like that. WRs running plays they probably haven't run before. Different QBs throwing them the balls. Not knowing where each other will be expecting the ball to be. It's a recipe for disaster and for that alone we should can the stupid formation.

 

So ya, your right. No one can expect it to go for 40 and a TD every time. But at the same time we just expect it to not lose us a game. If it wasn't for Carrington and his garguantuan arms it would have been a loss.

 

To that, I say I'm not sure what games you've been watching.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

This issue isn't terribly important to me but I have a few thoughts on it.

 

1) If the Bills had a great offense, they probably wouldn't bother running the Wildcat. I can't think of a good offense which uses the Wildcat and the teams that do use it generally have bad offenses.

 

2) The play Patrick Peterson made on that interception was incredible… maybe only Antonio Cromartie among DBs could have made that play… maybe a young Ed Reed. Donald Jones wasn't even his man and Peterson came off his primary coverage, outraced 3 players to an overthrown ball and still had the athleticism to catch the ball and take it back the other way.

 

Absolutely incredible play.

 

Incidentally, passing on Peterson is a much bigger issue to me than the Wildcat.

 

p.s.- And I'm a big Marcell Dareus supporter and was in favor of drafting him.

[apuszczalowski]

Smiths throw was still better and more accurate then almost all of Fitzs throws though............

[mrags]

Smiths throw was still better and more accurate then almost all of Fitzs throws though............

I was really hoping for some smart @$$ remark out of you about this but I can't argue with this statement.

[Kelly the Dog]

I have now heard a few different members of the Bills talk about that play and there is no question that Donald Jones !@#$ed it up and ran the wrong route. I blame Chan first for calling that play at that time. I blame Donald Jones second for not only running the wrong route but because he ran the wrong route, Patrick Peterson made the INT, where he never would have been able to had Jone just ran the right route. And I blame Brad Smith third, for the overthrow, and for not realizing that two WRs were too close to each other, although I would imagine that he just got the ball, looked for Jones who was his main target, saw Jones with a step on his man, and then threw the ball to him.

[uncle flap]

I'll answer it. The points about if we have the personel or not and if it's effective or not are certainly up for debate. Over a sample size of just yesterday alone it seems that CJ was more effective than BS in the formation and that's what many WC haters are complaining about. BS is not good and we should just use one of our RBs instead. Sure BS got us more yards yesterday but he also threw a huge int that almost (should have) cost us a loss.

 

That's not normally true you say? I'm not doing the math here because it's not worth my time on such a useless facet of the game but I'm putting money on it that CJ has more yardage and success this year than BS does out of the WC.

 

FWIW, gimmick plays are often implimented for big plays. The reason for it is because they have a high failure rate (example of Brad Smiths throw yesterday). Even when they are runs for only a few yards they are more subject to fumbles and injuries because people are playing out of position and asked to block or do things they normally don't. So yes, a lot is expected of the WC If they are going to run it and honestly, it's been a dissapointment. However, the point you make is right. 4-5 times a game running the ball in the right situations would be fine and shouldn't negetively affect us. However, you can't watch that game yesterday and honestly say after that interception that we should have won. We gave the game away. Chan gave the game away. In a time where he should have been running the ball (and yes i would have even accepted a WC run play there) and killing the clock, he ran a pass playbfrom his 3rd string QB that hasn't attempted a pass in a game in over a year and when he did it was an INT. You don't put the rest of the team in a position like that. WRs running plays they probably haven't run before. Different QBs throwing them the balls. Not knowing where each other will be expecting the ball to be. It's a recipe for disaster and for that alone we should can the stupid formation.

 

So ya, your right. No one can expect it to go for 40 and a TD every time. But at the same time we just expect it to not lose us a game. If it wasn't for Carrington and his garguantuan arms it would have been a loss.

 

To that, I say I'm not sure what games you've been watching.

 

I respect your opinion, and can understand where you are coming from.

 

Many of the things discussed in this and the other thread I linked are related, but separate issues.

 

The three main points boil down to three things:

1. The opinion on signing/paying Brad Smith and his use of a roster spot.

2. The use of the Wildcat- whether it is effective at all, or effective enough to be worth using, or if it just plain shouldn't be used because of some other reason

3. The call for BS to throw against all conventional wisdom.

 

However, I think yours (and many others') arguments become muddled when you combine all three points into some kind of misguided rant.

 

I don't mean to offend you or anyone else, but it often isn't clear on here if we are arguing, discussing, or simply venting. All of which are cool, but let's try to be sure which we are doing when we're addressing each other if indeed we want to have a discussion.

 

In regard to the 3 points I listed above:

 

1. I don't know that if I was GM, I would make BS a priority signing. Obviously the FO felt they needed an extra wrinkle, and BS is a good fit for a wildcat QB.

 

It's hard to quantify $ vs return except in the most extreme cases, so I'd say $4 million or whatever he's making isn't really making a big difference, so it's not really important what kind of difference BS makes with respect to his earnings. The roster spot he uses would likely otherwise be occupied by a player that would be inactive on game days, and because BS can fill a number of roles, that saves additional spots.

 

The question I pose for those who disagree on the signing- who would you rather have in that roster spot? I bet I can convince you that BS is a better option. Or maybe not, idk, try me lol.

 

2. If someone doesn't like the wildcat because he considers it a gimmick and/or would rather see the base packages, that's his opinion, and I probably can't convince him otherwise.

 

To say it's ineffective is misleading. Yes, there have been miscues, but the results are generally positive.

 

This point gets muddled again because some don't like the idea of Brad Smith running the ball or don't get why he should bother taking the snap if he's just going to hand off to Spiller. Well, now that's an Xs and Os discussion.

 

It seems like the dislike of Brad Smith and the wildcat are linked, but not for a legitimate reason. It's like saying, "I don't like Brad Smith because of the wildcat, and I don't like the wildcat because of Brad Smith." That statement can be true, but the argument is circular.

 

I just don't see the wildcat as ineffective, and I don't often hear or read good arguments to scrap the package. I like creativity and I think it puts the defense in a tougher spot than it would appear.

 

I will gladly call for the package to be scrapped once I don't see any potential AND/OR the base offense (read: Fitz) proves to have enough consistency that I'd rather see that every play.

 

3. I would've never called that play in a million years in that situation. But because it happened to be an interception doesn't make me want them to eliminate that play, much less the wildcat.

 

If you watch again, a better read would be Spiller coming out of the backfield. He almost certainly would've picked up the first down. If Jones ran the correct route as Chan alluded it probably would've been a TD, or a huge gain in some other situation.

 

I'd love to see that play run a few more times this season, but that was absolutely a bonehead call in that situation.

 

I think I and most if not all wildcat proponents disagreed with the call, but that doesn't have anything to do with incorporating the wildcat package in other scenarios. Niether does the fact that both time BS has thrown he's been picked off. As I and many others have discussed, the pick in the KC game was a glorified punt in garbage time for the benefit of opposing teams' game tape. This pick was a mistake by Jones (maybe BS too) but even more so an incredible play by Peterson.

 

The Bills might've lost as a result of that play, but certainly not that play alone. Fred spotted the Cards 3 points to start in what wound up being a 3 point game. Refs jobbed the BIlls on a bad spot/measurement. Defensive miscues allowed huge scrambles from Kolb. More than once motion was used to get Fitzgerald into single coverage, sometimes even by LBs and Safeties. Again, definitely a terrible call given the circumstances but the game shouldn't even have been close. Eliminate a few of these problems, maybe have Fitz connect a couple more times, and the Bills would've trounced them.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, it's a fun discussion to have, and I enjoy being on the unpopular side for once. I can just as easily debate why they shouldn't use the wildcat, but since I like the wildcat, I'll do the opposite. Hope that doesn't make me a troll.

Edited October 16, 2012 by uncle flap

[Best Player Available]

I have now heard a few different members of the Bills talk about that play and there is no question that Donald Jones !@#$ed it up and ran the wrong route. I blame Chan first for calling that play at that time. I blame Donald Jones second for not only running the wrong route but because he ran the wrong route, Patrick Peterson made the INT, where he never would have been able to had Jone just ran the right route. And I blame Brad Smith third, for the overthrow, and for not realizing that two WRs were too close to each other, although I would imagine that he just got the ball, looked for Jones who was his main target, saw Jones with a step on his man, and then threw the ball to him.

I never watched a replay. It was a bad play from all involved. And looked more like B Smith was chucking a hail Mary, rather than an actual timed pass route. Worst offensive play call and execution of a "play" this season. Pure college crap play from Gailey.

[reddogblitz]

Brad Smith is OK. Just don't let him pass the football. He has had success running the Wild Bill the last 2 weeks. Stick to that.