Delete This Account Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 And the rest of CJ's runs this season? All against pass defenses you say? careful, asking a question you might not know the answer to. kelly watches more tape, and has more insider input than you might know. jw
Astrobot Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 Alright then. But that means he has to be the #3 qb by rule to get on the field i think. So where does that leave us? Get rid of B Smith next year keep T J as #3 and bring in a rookie trainee franchise prospect at #2? I think next April we draft Denard In RD4, have one of Gailey's competitions for the #3 QB position, and may the best man win.
8-8 Forever? Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 Had a fairly decent catch on Sunday. A very decent route and catch Sunday, when the game was scoreless. Very very decent double move and toe touch on the sidelines.
Bill from NYC Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 That is untrue. Any reasonable person and football fan (granted, that excludes you) would know that since there is no chance that Smith will throw, and in a run formation against a run defense, 4.2 yards per carry is harder to attain than the 5 yards per carry that Fred and CJ have out of predominantly pass formations against pass defenses. It's a fabulous average in fact. Agreed. I don't know his first down conversion stats, but I am thinking they are good, because I feel confident when Smith comes in for the wildcat.
Mr. WEO Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 careful, asking a question you might not know the answer to. kelly watches more tape, and has more insider input than you might know. jw Don't you worry, jw. I asked because I don't know the answer--but it seemed unlikely to me that most of Fred and CJ's runs came against pass defense formations or in situatons where the D was anticipating a pass play. I've never heard that before. If he knows then I would be happy to know to be schooled on this. Our differences in the WC may be philosophical...
3rdand12 Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 Don't you worry, jw. I asked because I don't know the answer--but it seemed unlikely to me that most of Fred and CJ's runs came against pass defense formations or in situatons where the D was anticipating a pass play. I've never heard that before. If he knows then I would be happy to know to be schooled on this. Our differences in the WC may be philosophical... some folks differences of opinion in regard to The Wildcat border on fervent religious bent.!
Mr. WEO Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 some folks differences of opinion in regard to The Wildcat border on fervent religious bent.! True. Some see things that are not there
3rdand12 Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 True. Some see things that are not there
FreakPop Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 I don't think the wildcat is a useful tool anymore. When the Dolphins first started using it, it was a new wrinkle that nobody had seen before, thus making it successful. As time has gone on it has become less and less successful to the point of being unsuccessful and almost irrelevant. To say the defense has to gameplan for it I think is somewhat untrue as the defenses now, always seem to shut it down. IDK, I just see it as a waste now, doesn't work anymore, time to scrap it.
QCity Posted September 22, 2012 Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) The day the WC wins us a big game all by itself, I will get down on my knees and pray to the Brad Smith gods. Until that happens I'll be screaming from mountain tops how stupid it is and how right I am. Your problem is you have wildly unrealistic expectations, or maybe you do not understand what the WC is, in essence. Too many people point to that Miami game where they caught the Patriots off-guard, and now incorrectly believe that result is the benchmark for the WC. The WC is not a base offense - it’s simply a play. It’s no different than calling a RB screen, student body sweep left, off-tackle run, or a WR hitch pattern. It’s not going to “win us a big game all by itself” – it’s asinine to think that way. I think swapping the QB out causes people to expect something magical to happen every time. Here’s the WC on a good day: 4-5 plays, 15-25 yards, 2-3 first downs. That right there would be what I consider a successful day of running the WC. Now, what exactly are your expectations (seriously, I want to hear what people expect)? If the Bills ran 3 screen plays in a game and they all got stuffed, would you make a thread about ditching the screen pass? If you want to argue that Brad Smith is overpaid, then fine - make that argument. He gets $4M a year for being a WC QB, kick returner, emergency QB, 4threceiver, special teams gunner and emergency RB. What should a guy like that make? $3M? That’s not what I consider overpaid. Aaron Maybin, now that is a player that was overpaid. Edited September 22, 2012 by QCity
mrags Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Your problem is you have wildly unrealistic expectations, or maybe you do not understand what the WC is, in essence. Too many people point to that Miami game where they caught the Patriots off-guard, and now incorrectly believe that result is the benchmark for the WC. The WC is not a base offense - it’s simply a play. It’s no different than calling a RB screen, student body sweep left, off-tackle run, or a WR hitch pattern. It’s not going to “win us a big game all by itself” – it’s asinine to think that way. I think swapping the QB out causes people to expect something magical to happen every time. Here’s the WC on a good day: 4-5 plays, 15-25 yards, 2-3 first downs. That right there would be what I consider a successful day of running the WC. Now, what exactly are your expectations (seriously, I want to hear what people expect)? If the Bills ran 3 screen plays in a game and they all got stuffed, would you make a thread about ditching the screen pass? If you want to argue that Brad Smith is overpaid, then fine - make that argument. He gets $4M a year for being a WC QB, kick returner, emergency QB, 4threceiver, special teams gunner and emergency RB. What should a guy like that make? $3M? That’s not what I consider overpaid. Aaron Maybin, now that is a player that was overpaid. I realize it's not an "offense". I know it's a "play". The problem is, it's a trick play. Similar in how a flea-flicker would be used. Name any other trick play and insert here. They are good once in a while (1 time a game maybe) like a fake punt or a fake FG turned TD pass ala Morman to Kelsey. It's just not going to fool people often and when you get lucky on it, it should show big gains. But the WC doesn't. It hasn't since Miami used it to fool NE and as others have said, it's not used nearly as much anymore. There's a few reasons for that, 1 is because it's not effective since all teams have spent...er wasted a year on figurng out that you stack the box and play the run. If it's going to be a pass and you let some 4th string QB/WR/RB/KR/STer complete it against a starting defensive unit then your in worse shape than anyone thought. I will argue all day that he's a waste of money. As I said, he's a 4th to 5th option for every one of the positions he plays. That is not good enough for $1m IMO. you get better as a team by having starter quality players in your team, not scrubs that would never make a roster if he only played any single position (except maybe WR). I understand you have to have the depth at those positions and he fills in as depth at 4-5 different spots but let's be honest here. Even as listed as the 3rd QB, he will NEVER be in a game as a full time QB EVER in his career. If your team has that much depth problems, you go out and hire some JP Losman type retread to play emergency QB. If he was ever our starter because of injuries, I'll give my seasons up in a heartbeat because the FO is so stupid to start this idiot they don't deserve my money. RB- see my comments about the QB WR- the only position where he actually makes sense. I've said many times I wan to see him more here, if anything for $h!ts and giggles just to see if he can become something more than a 4th string scrub. KR- he proves he can't do it here. Many will point to how nice his average is over his career. Well, I just keep pointing to how he's sucked in Buffalo, and since he left the Jets, thier Return game has progressed. Again, as in my last point, if the Jets really missed him or wanted him back in the first place, they would have signed him and not let him walk. He will be cut next season, not brought back, etc... Any way you slice it, he will not be on this team next season. Unless he really comes along as a WR. FWIW, I'd pay anyone in this league, named Maybin or anyone else for that matter $4m a year for 6 sacks a year. That's actual production, not what BS did with us last year (which by the way was his 2nd best year ever). That's a joke IMO as hebwas barely noticable.
NoSaint Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) Don't you worry, jw. I asked because I don't know the answer--but it seemed unlikely to me that most of Fred and CJ's runs came against pass defense formations or in situatons where the D was anticipating a pass play. I've never heard that before. If he knows then I would be happy to know to be schooled on this. Our differences in the WC may be philosophical... I think you know this more than your letting on. Not every carry but a large portion come with 3+ receivers on the field. A big help to our rushing average last year (and this year) is getting the defense to both swap 1-2 lbs for CBs and pulling those smaller players on the field out of the box additionally. Running out of the spread is great for averages, especially as a team that doesn't have the deep threat to push back the safeties at the third level- instead we pull the second level sideways out of the box, and take muscle out of that level. With the wildcat, we lose that schematic advantage- but we do get an extra blocker. Another numbers win, but until we pass its not as big. Very rarely do we line up in a standard I formation or two TE power running formation. Chan uses scheme to get as much as he can in the blocker to defender ratio (both quantity and size). I don't have percentages but rarely do we line up and just beat up guys in a standard running game. Edited September 23, 2012 by NoSaint
ganesh Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 Ron Brooks is eligible to return from short-term IR after 6 weeks, which means our Bye week will be the end of the Tyler Thigpen era. Or if we lose another Starter to an injury, especially at the WR position.
mrags Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 I have always respected the opinion of others although sometimes I come off like I don't. So with that said, I respect your hope that BS and the WC get going. After all, it's the Bills were talking about and anything they do that helps them, I'm all for it. I DID trust Gailey for over a year and a half, but this past half year (roughly 10-12 games) has made me do some serious head scratching with his play calls. I also did some serious head scratching when we even picked up BS in the first place. Sure, like many others here, I totally get the importance of having a guy that can play anywhere from 2-4 different positions. But... And this is a big but... I seriously doubt his ability to play any one of those positions well enough to even be a 4th or 5th option. His WR potential has me intrigued and personally I wouldn't mind him playing more of it. Just like how you can ask why I hate him and the WC so much, I'll just flip it and ask why you love it so much. It has been dissapointing at best, not just with the Bills but around the league (minus 1-2 games when the Dolphins broke it out). It doesn't fool anyone. Teams and defenses know what's coming. A run. Usually up the middle. It usually picks up 2-3 yards, many times for a first down. And this is the point where all the WC fans really start screaming "it produced --- first downs". Ya, so freaking what?!? It still doesn't male sense considering just about any run play out of your normal formation would produce just the same numbers if the WC never existed. I really dont care because it's not my money, but it is an absolute waste to pay a guy $4m for a handful of plays a year. We barely pay Fred Jackson that much. That IMO is an absolute joke. I would never take a carry away from FJ or CJ and thier potential to take it to the house on every play for this chump stain. Lee can go too. He's also an absolute waste of space IMO. Hasn't done anything with our QBs to this point and he sure as hell hasn't done anything for our WC offense. The day the WC wins us a big game all by itself, I will get down on my knees and pray to the Brad Smith gods. Until that happens I'll be screaming from mountain tops how stupid it is and how right I am. I'll also male a friendly bet with anyone that Brad Smith will not be on the 2013 Buffalo Bills. Not unless he emerges as a recieving threat this season. I just wanted to bring this back up because Chan and his little Wildcat Boy almost cost us a game yesterday. As I posted during the ge ibwas impressed with the run where he got down to the 1yrd line. But again, he hasn't won us any games, if anything we almost lost one because of him. My bet is still out there (can't remember who took me up on it) for a beer if BS would have any bit of a successful year. So far I'm looking like I'll be having a beer. On another note, not sure who I made that Lee Evans bet with either but I'm looking good there too. Sure it's a LAMP but I'm gonna take it.
Kelly the Dog Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 (edited) I guess you hated the 16 yard run from the 17 yard line to give us a first and goal and Freddy's TD run. The pass was just a terrible call by Chan at that time, and Donald Jones ran the wrong pattern. He was supposed to run to the middle of the field and the overthrow would never have been intercepted. Terrible call. Bad throw. Bad pattern. The WC however, had three good plays out of three that I can remember before that. Got a first down on 2nd and short, about a 7-8 CJ run, and a great 16 yard run to the 1 yard line. Edited October 15, 2012 by Kelly the Dog
mrags Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 I guess you hated the 16 yard run from the 17 yard line to give us a first and goal and Freddy's TD run. The pass was just a terrible call by Chan at that time, and Donald Jones ran the wrong pattern. He was supposed to run to the middle of the field and the overthrow would never have been intercepted. Terrible call. Bad throw. Bad pattern. The WC however, had three good plays out of three that I can remember before that. Got a first down on 2nd and short, about a 7-8 CJ run, and a great 16 yard run to the 1 yard line. First of all, I said I was impressed with the run to take us to the 1yard line. If you really think a 2nd and short culdnt have been made by one of our RBs or Fitz falling forward your dilusional. If you think CJ and his 7+ yard average couldn't have ran 7-8 yards in his WC run then you apparently don't watch CJ run the ball. In another note, we have Brad Smith taking up millions on this roster to do 1 thing well and it's play WC and he wasn't in on this play. In the end, he produced a large gain on a run which was impressive but nothing more than CJ does on a weekly basis, and a horrible throw and descision to throw out of the WC. He is 0-2 with 2 picks. This one in a very bad timing situation that shouldn't have been called in the first place. If the stupid WC and rediculously overpaid Brad Smith weren't on our roster or in our playbook we would all have a few extra years on our hearts after yesterdays debacle. Face it Kelly. Your wrong on this one.
NoSaint Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 even if overpaid - what are you supposing we do to upgrade from brad smith right now - may as well ride it out at this point. personally i dont think its near as bad a situation as those complaining would assert.
mrags Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 even if overpaid - what are you supposing we do to upgrade from brad smith right now - may as well ride it out at this point. personally i dont think its near as bad a situation as those complaining would assert. Im not proposing we look to replace BS at all at this point. Simply stating that he and the WC are a mistake and almost cost us a game yesterday. Stating that Chan needs to learn when the proper time to use it is. It's more on Chan than BS at this point honestly. When the game was in hand an we had a lead while driving deep into AZ territory we should have been running the ball and killing the clock as much as possible. Chan got cute and it was a horrible descision. One that most likely wouldn't be made if there was no BS. Between BS, the WC, and Chans inability to make smart play calls with the game on the line, it's a bad idea. That's all.
Best Player Available Posted October 15, 2012 Posted October 15, 2012 I just wanted to bring this back up because Chan and his little Wildcat Boy almost cost us a game yesterday. As I posted during the ge ibwas impressed with the run where he got down to the 1yrd line. But again, he hasn't won us any games, if anything we almost lost one because of him. My bet is still out there (can't remember who took me up on it) for a beer if BS would have any bit of a successful year. So far I'm looking like I'll be having a beer. On another note, not sure who I made that Lee Evans bet with either but I'm looking good there too. Sure it's a LAMP but I'm gonna take it. Smith is not worth his salary. But lets be clear here Gailey almost lost the game yesterday. On more than one hair brained call to.
Russ 'Em Posted October 15, 2012 Author Posted October 15, 2012 Oh so the defenders of Brad Smith must be working today, or maybe they have a hangover from such an amazing win. This game is a microcasm of why the WC shouldn't be used. Yeah you had a couple nice runs, but as was stated before could have probably come from our base offense. No scoring plays. CJ did have some bigger runs in the spread. And finally, Brad Smith did what every defender of the wildcat has been asking him to do for weeks, throw the ball. How did that work out? Its easy to put blame on Gailey for calling the play. It was dumb. It was dumb to have the WC on the field. You can blame Donald Jones for "not getting to the middle of the field" which was the excuse when Chan threw him under the bus as soon as he could. Way to take responsibility. If your a QB and you know the play is "supposed" to go to the middle of the field (which as you can tell I'm not sold on) then why in the HELL do you throw it outside? Is that the recievers fault? Throw the F***ing ball inside and make him adjust, not into double coverage. Brad Smith = waste of millions.
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