Rico Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 After reading many posts in this thread there is some things that most of you just don't get. Fitz's receivers besides SJ are crap, and have been crap! There is basically nobody after Stevie Johnson and he drops a ton of balls every year, plus SJ is currently not 100% healthy. The Jets DB's knew what passes Fitz was going to throw and they ran the routes better then the bills receivers. The very best DB in the game was covering SJ,and it showed Sunday. The Bills receivers were covered like a blanket and conversely the Jets receivers were wide open most of the game. Big mouth Rex and his staff outcoached the Bills coaches big time, Bills players looked very unprepared in almost every aspect. The Bears just had the wrong game plan against the Packers, and their O line blocking schemes stink. The biggest difference between the Bears and the Bills is that the Bears defense has been much much better then anything the Bills have fielded for years. Both teams have poor O lines, both teams have sub par receiver corps with one top WR. By comparing Fitz to Cutler I'd take Fitz simply because in the past he has been able to do more with less. Fitz gets the ball out to the open receiver in usually 2-3 seconds which neutralizes the pass rush against him. Plus Fitz can read a defense and set his protections better. Cutler has had better teams and coaches around him his entire NFL career is why he has accomplished more so far. No doubt IMO that Fitz's intangibles > Cutler's intangibles. I still would take Cutler over Fitz though, only because I could probably still find another chump team like the Bears & get a ton of high draft picks for him.
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 The difference between Cutler and Fitz is very significant, as I pointed out earlier in this thread. A career average of 7.3 yards for Cutler (borderline franchise QB territory), and a career average of 6.3 yards per attempt for Fitz (backup QB/out of the leage territory). During the last two seasons Fitz averaged 6.8 and 6.7 yards per attempt; thereby eliminating about half the gap between himself and Cutler. But even half of that gap is still very significant. Yet again, he still has played on one winning team since high school (I guess he was on one last year when he got hurt). Football is the ultimate team game, but he doesn't play football. He makes a lot of passes Fitz does (throw it up and hope your guy makes a play); he just has a stronger arm. Don't get me wrong. Cutler is one of the most skilled QBs in the league. There's no comparison between him and Fitz. But with his tendency for turnovers and his crappy attitude, I won't want him near my team. Nothing is ever his fault. Brees, Rodgers, and Big Ben don't play behind great olines but they help them out. Cutler has terrible pocket awareness and holds the ball too long. Like I said, he is closer to Fitz than the Brady and Rodgers of the league. And Jay "Jeff George" Cutler pretty much sums him up. Stats are similar (different league in terms of passing stats but still). http://www.nfl.com/player/jeffgeorge/2500788/careerstats Hopefully for the Bears sake, he matures. But I'd bet on him getting punched in the face by a teammate is more likely than him winning a SB.
Best Player Available Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 What year do you think Jim Kelly retired, guy?? Secondly, the point of the post was not to excuse Fitzpatrick or make a comparison to Cutler. It's to jar people out of this whiny mindset that we're the only team in the league that doesn't have Joe Montana at quarterback. And, that even teams who think they have a "franchise" guy under center have to suffer through terrible performances from that player. I was to lazy to correct a typo. I was responding to comments that went something like this. There are 5-7 franchise QB's and another 5-7 teams thinking they have one. Yes, I'm paraphrasing here My comment was. So that's and excuse for zilch starting caliber Qb's since Kelly retired? We don't even try anymore. Gailey hitched his ill conceived schemes to a clown that could be making the same money on Wall St. The ship once again will go down because of this thinking by a "Megamind" IMO. I could care less about Cutler, but one thing I know for sure I would take him anyday of the week over our current QB. Of course he could leave his attitude in Chi-Town.
Kaz Posted September 14, 2012 Author Posted September 14, 2012 THIS^^^^^ Homers will go to all ends to try and validate Fitz and his continuous struggles. This thread isnt about Cutler, its about making an excuse for Fitz to say, hey look, he's not so bad. First off, Cutler has led teams to the playoffs, has a winning record, thrown quite a few more TD's than INT's, spent the last 3 years on a team with NO WR's, watched his team dump his best recieving weapon in Olsen, has had zero protection behind that line, and yet still plays at a high level. Is he as good as Rodgers, Brady, or Brees...of course not, but few in the NFL's history are. This kid is hands down a substantially better QB than Fitz. More importantly, Cutler has proven he can play at a high level where Fitz has only proven he is the most inconsistent QB in the NFL right now and doesn't have the arm strength to play the gunslinger roll. I love this argument, too. Because Fitz has always been on a team blessed with an obscene amount of receiving talent.
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 THIS^^^^^ Homers will go to all ends to try and validate Fitz and his continuous struggles. This thread isnt about Cutler, its about making an excuse for Fitz to say, hey look, he's not so bad. First off, Cutler has led teams to the playoffs, has a winning record, thrown quite a few more TD's than INT's, spent the last 3 years on a team with NO WR's, watched his team dump his best recieving weapon in Olsen, has had zero protection behind that line, and yet still plays at a high level. Is he as good as Rodgers, Brady, or Brees...of course not, but few in the NFL's history are. This kid is hands down a substantially better QB than Fitz. More importantly, Cutler has proven he can play at a high level where Fitz has only proven he is the most inconsistent QB in the NFL right now and doesn't have the arm strength to play the gunslinger roll. See some people saying he doesn't have it upstairs and makes poor decisions...well guess who makes way more poor decisions on the field...FITZ. Fitz constantly chooses to deliver the ball late, throw to guys no where near open while ignoring better options, etc etc. I would take Cutler every day and twice on Sundays over Fitz and I don't even like Cutler. No one was saying anything about Cutler last week when he was pretty good in leading Chicago to the win. He has been a substantial upgrade over Orton, the Bears issues have not been QB related, they have been pass protection and lack of talent at WR. They addressed the WR position this year, but the line is one of the worst in football at pass protection still, and no QB is going to avoid struggles when the defense is able to get your hands on you or collapse the pocket before you even complete your drop back. He has led his team to the playoffs ONCE. He finished a season with a winning record ONCE (he didn't finish last year). The Bears have a very talented receiving group right now with a top 5 receiver. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CutlJa00.htm
Kaz Posted September 14, 2012 Author Posted September 14, 2012 Don't get me wrong. Cutler is one of the most skilled QBs in the league. There's no comparison between him and Fitz. But with his tendency for turnovers and his crappy attitude, I won't want him near my team. Nothing is ever his fault. Brees, Rodgers, and Big Ben don't play behind great olines but they help them out. Cutler has terrible pocket awareness and holds the ball too long. Big Ben is the best example to use when talking about a QB who gets the stuffing beat out of him regularly, but actually plays smart most of the time and makes plays in spite of it. The argument I keep seeing in favor of Cutler is that he would suddenly play smart and cut down on his INTs if he played behind a good OL. And I don't think you can extrapolate that conclusion from anything Cutler has done in his career to this point.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 The perception on Jay is easy to understand. Bewteen our guy and theirs I see them as equally strong and lacking in different areas, ultimately a wash on the field. Fitz has and average arm, great smarts, a bit of a gambler, hreat leadership and suspect accuracy. Inconsistant. Cutler has a cannon, Average smarts, a gambler too, suspect leadership and suspect accuracy. Also inconsistant. Since fitz teammates seem to respect him, Cutlers not quite as much, and the position is as much about leading as it is throwing, I'd take fitz over cutlet too.
Billsrhody Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 After reading many posts in this thread there is some things that most of you just don't get. Fitz's receivers besides SJ are crap, and have been crap! There is basically nobody after Stevie Johnson and he drops a ton of balls every year, plus SJ is currently not 100% healthy. The Jets DB's knew what passes Fitz was going to throw and they ran the routes better then the bills receivers. The very best DB in the game was covering SJ,and it showed Sunday. The Bills receivers were covered like a blanket and conversely the Jets receivers were wide open most of the game. Big mouth Rex and his staff outcoached the Bills coaches big time, Bills players looked very unprepared in almost every aspect. The Bears just had the wrong game plan against the Packers, and their O line blocking schemes stink. The biggest difference between the Bears and the Bills is that the Bears defense has been much much better then anything the Bills have fielded for years. Both teams have poor O lines, both teams have sub par receiver corps with one top WR. By comparing Fitz to Cutler I'd take Fitz simply because in the past he has been able to do more with less. Fitz gets the ball out to the open receiver in usually 2-3 seconds which neutralizes the pass rush against him. Plus Fitz can read a defense and set his protections better. Cutler has had better teams and coaches around him his entire NFL career is why he has accomplished more so far. I dont get your logic here. You give Fitz a pass because you say he doesnt have weapons, but Cutler is one of the few QBs in the league who has worse weapons than Fitz. He's had absolutely no WRs for the past 4 years, and just now has Brandon Marshall. He has a RB who is on par with Jackson. He has one of the worst offense lines in football. If anything, Cutler does more with less. He has led his team to the playoffs ONCE. He finished a season with a winning record ONCE (he didn't finish last year). The Bears have a very talented receiving group right now with a top 5 receiver. http://www.pro-footb.../C/CutlJa00.htm What??? One guy makes a group talented? And a headcase named brandon marshall at that?? How about the last 4 years?
thewildrabbit Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 No doubt IMO that Fitz's intangibles > Cutler's intangibles. I still would take Cutler over Fitz though, only because I could probably still find another chump team like the Bears & get a ton of high draft picks for him. Yea, Cutlers arm is way better. But I would think that Cutler wouldn't last long behind the Bills line if he can't get that ball out in 2-3 seconds
thewildrabbit Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 I dont get your logic here. You give Fitz a pass because you say he doesnt have weapons, but Cutler is one of the few QBs in the league who has worse weapons than Fitz. He's had absolutely no WRs for the past 4 years, and just now has Brandon Marshall. He has a RB who is on par with Jackson. He has one of the worst offense lines in football. If anything, Cutler does more with less. What??? One guy makes a group talented? And a headcase named brandon marshall at that?? How about the last 4 years? Take into consideration the Bears vs Bills defense. Fitz was almost always trying to play catchup because Gailey would go pass happy as soon as the Bills lost the lead. The Bears run the ball more with Forte Earl Bennett and play great defense. They have had better tight ends as Greg Olsen was his outlet as was RB Earl Bennett. But yea, you could make the case the Bears didn't have a top 20 WR, AND their O line was actually worse then the Bills. Plus they ran the Mike Martz scheme, its a wonder Cutler is still alive
Mr. WEO Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 I don't know what my ultimate point is, OK, it's been 4 pages, have you figured out what your point is? I haven't--other than maybe to say that we shouldn't feel so bad that our QB spot has been unsettled for over 15 years? Am I getting warm?
Buffalo Barbarian Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 11/27, TD, 4 INT "We understand that Jay is excited about his new weapons, but it's the same-old Jay. We don't need luck; Jay will throw us the ball." --Charles Woodson, after last night's game Cutler was the 11th overall pick in the 2006 draft. The Bears traded Orton, two first-rounders and a third-round pick to get Cutler. I don't know what my ultimate point is, but I think some members of this board need a reminder from time to time that Fitz isn't the only QB in the league who has shortcomings. Cutler's bio is a lot shinier than Fitz's, but, are the results any different? Only a select few clubs are set at the quarterback position. The rest of them are just trying to get by. That's great but I don't care about the other teams and we still need a better QB
Kaz Posted September 14, 2012 Author Posted September 14, 2012 OK, it's been 4 pages, have you figured out what your point is? I haven't--other than maybe to say that we shouldn't feel so bad that our QB spot has been unsettled for over 15 years? Am I getting warm? I don't know, professor, are you? I assume you can read, and I know you can count. I guess you're confused that someone posted something other than, "Fitz blows! He's stealing the team's money! 'Fitzsucky' is more like it!" There are plenty of other threads out there that will quench your thirst for that. That's great but I don't care about the other teams and we still need a better QB OK, thanks for the thought-provoking contribution.
atlbillsfan1975 Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 Cutler can not win. He was accused a few seasons ago of 'not caring' when the Bears lost in the playoffs. Last night i saw a guy who is pissed he has an Oline which stunk up the places. Greenbay is good, but he had olineman getting killed one on one. I do not feel bad for him, but if you gave him a good o line i think he would look pretty darn good. And to even compare him to Fitz is crazy. You can keep all the stats you want, but Cutler is a good QB. he just has a knack for pissing people off, kind of like Rivers in SD. Once you realize the guys just want to win then you get over their antics. Peyton Manning is another guy that was notorious for throwing his teammates under the bus early on in his career.
KD in CA Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 From what you've told me, the moral of the story is: Cutler can't beat the Packers. That's kind of a big deal for guy who plays QB for Green Bay's biggest rival. Not very good resume material. I'd rather have a guy who can't beat his biggest rival than a guy who can't beat his 3 biggest rivals. What??? One guy makes a group talented? And a headcase named brandon marshall at that?? How about the last 4 years? And a headcase that dropped a TD pass last night to boot!
Kaz Posted September 14, 2012 Author Posted September 14, 2012 Cutler can not win. He was accused a few seasons ago of 'not caring' when the Bears lost in the playoffs. Last night i saw a guy who is pissed he has an Oline which stunk up the places. Greenbay is good, but he had olineman getting killed one on one. I do not feel bad for him, but if you gave him a good o line i think he would look pretty darn good. And to even compare him to Fitz is crazy. You can keep all the stats you want, but Cutler is a good QB. he just has a knack for pissing people off, kind of like Rivers in SD. Once you realize the guys just want to win then you get over their antics. Peyton Manning is another guy that was notorious for throwing his teammates under the bus early on in his career. When are some of you going to stop equating "caring" to acting like a cranky toddler? I think pretty much every player who puts on an NFL uniform cares about winning, but not all of them stomp around and shove their teammates when things get bad. And a headcase that dropped a TD pass last night to boot! Except, that headcase (Marshall) and the other headcase (Cutler) hooked up for 15 touchdowns in the three years they were teammates in Denver. But, I know, he dropped a pass last night so he sucks. I get it.
Tipster19 Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 What a great freakin' thread this is! EVERYONE has a intelligent rebuttal, I can't ever remember that EVER happening on this message board! Lol! I would have to say that Buffalo Barbarian summed it up the best when he said that he doesn't care about other team's QBs and that we need a better one. I couldn't agree more with this thinking. Now here is my final observation. I think that we should experiment like Dr. Frankenstein and make the ultimate QB out of Cutler and Fitzpatrick, you know 2 parts Cutler, 1 part Fitz, etc etc because we sure haven't had success in drafting them.
Orton's Arm Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 Yet again, he still has played on one winning team since high school (I guess he was on one last year when he got hurt). Football is the ultimate team game, but he doesn't play football. He makes a lot of passes Fitz does (throw it up and hope your guy makes a play); he just has a stronger arm. Don't get me wrong. Cutler is one of the most skilled QBs in the league. There's no comparison between him and Fitz. But with his tendency for turnovers and his crappy attitude, I won't want him near my team. Nothing is ever his fault. Brees, Rodgers, and Big Ben don't play behind great olines but they help them out. Cutler has terrible pocket awareness and holds the ball too long. Like I said, he is closer to Fitz than the Brady and Rodgers of the league. And Jay "Jeff George" Cutler pretty much sums him up. Stats are similar (different league in terms of passing stats but still). http://www.nfl.com/p...788/careerstats Hopefully for the Bears sake, he matures. But I'd bet on him getting punched in the face by a teammate is more likely than him winning a SB. I've never bought into the idea that a QB should be given personal credit when his team wins, or should take the blame when his team loses. There were plenty of times when John Elway's teams went 7-9. With Dilfer at the helm, the Ravens went on a 15-1 stretch, including a Super Bowl win. Cutler's stats are not even remotely comparable to Fitz's. Let's start throwing numbers around to put things into perspective. Trent Edwards has averaged 6.5 yards per attempt over the course of his career; and JP Losman has averaged 6.6 yards per attempt over the course of his career. At the other end of the spectrum, Peyton Manning has averaged 7.6 yards per attempt during his career; and Tom Brady's career average is 7.5 yards per attempt. Jay Cutler's career average of 7.3 yards per attempt is a lot closer to the Manning/Brady level than it is to the Losman/Edwards level. Cutler's high level of production is why he was worth two first round picks in a trade; whereas Losman is out of the league, and Edwards is struggling to remain on a roster. Now look at at Fitz. A career average of 6.3 yards per attempt, which is worse than either Edwards' or Losman's career average. In 2010 and 2011 Fitz averaged 6.8 and 6.7 yards per attempt--better than Losman or Edwards, but still nowhere near Cutler's career average. Cutler's 7.3 is still closer to Manning's 7.6 than it is to Fitz's 6.7 - 6.8. Some here have argued that interceptions are Cutler's downfall. Over his career, Cutler has thrown 91 INTs over 2583 pass attempts, for a INT percentage of . . . wait for it . . . 3.5%. Fitz has 68 career INTs over 1776 pass attempts, for a career INT percentage of 3.8%. In 2010 Fitz's career INT percentage was 3.4%, and in 2011 it was 4.0%. Peyton Manning's career INT percentage is 2.7%, and Brady's is 2.1%. While Cutler could be better at avoiding INTs, he's somewhat less INT-prone than Fitz. According to a regression analysis done by the New York Times, a QB's yards per attempt is three times as important as his INT percentage. (I can translate that into statistics-speak if anyone's interested.) On the one measure which matters most (yards per attempt) Cutler and Fitz are in vastly different quarterbacks. And for anyone who might be tempted to say that wins is the statistic that matters most: when you measure wins, you're measuring the quality of the team. Not the quality of the quarterback.
Mr. WEO Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) I don't know, professor, are you? I assume you can read, and I know you can count. I guess you're confused that someone posted something other than, "Fitz blows! He's stealing the team's money! 'Fitzsucky' is more like it!" There are plenty of other threads out there that will quench your thirst for that. OK, thanks for the thought-provoking contribution. Well, you stated in your initial post that you weren't sure what your point in posting was. In truth, I am a bit confused about your thread, that's why I asked if you figured it out yet. Knocking Cutler is all you have accomplished so far. Maybe that was your point? A little diversion? Or.....something? (by the way, it's always a laugh when guys post some nonsense and then challenge another's "reading comprehension" when the post blow up on them). I'm a Fitz supporter, Sport, not a "Fitzsucky" guy. Edited September 14, 2012 by Mr. WEO
Kaz Posted September 14, 2012 Author Posted September 14, 2012 Well, you stated in your initial post that you weren't sure what your point in posting was. In truth, I am a bit confused about your thread, that's why I asked if you figured it out yet. Knocking Cutler is all you have accomplished so far. Maybe that was your point? A little diversion? Or.....something? (by the way, it's always a laugh when guys post some nonsense and then challenge another's "reading comprehension" when the post blow up on them). I'm a Fitz supporter, Sport, not a "Fitzsucky" guy. Have I knocked Cutler in any other way than pointing to facts? If nothing else, we've seen some of the same people who blame Fitz for just about everything emerge from slumber to apologize for Cutler in every which way. But, why? Because they really like Cutler, or they really hate Fitzpatrick? I've pointed to Cutler's poor game from last night, and how his career has featured a good number of these. How, even teams with lofty playoff aspirations might have their wagons hitched to a horse that isn't all that it's cracked up to be. In response, I've been informed by assorted people that Cutler is head-and-shoulders above Fitzpatrick, and how his career has been hampered by bad OL play or lack of weapons or Mike Martz, etc. If not for any of these factors, we could plug Cutler into the Patriots offense and it wouldn't skip a beat. I've asked for explanations and data to back these claims, and have barely gotten anything. Except for the guy who is talking about yards per reception. I guess you can come to your own conclusion in regards this thread. Maybe I thought a dose of reality outside of the Buffalo Bills bubble that some people live in would be something to spark conversation. So maybe I've accomplished that. By the way, I'm not sure who or what you're referring to in terms of the post blowing up and "reading comprehension" etc.
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