Thigpen took $1 million pay cut to stay

[NoSaint]

 

 

Be fair, it's not that simple. Roster decisions are made as a whole. Because we need to carry more DBs due to injury and the new IR rule, and because we chose to carry 4 QB and a kickoff specialist, we wound up making some decisions that might not work to the long term good of the team - such as cutting our 5th and 6th round draft picks and IR'ing one of our 4th (quick: what body part did he injure?), as well as paring our WR corps to the bone. I'm sure the coaches and staff thought long and hard before making their choices. Essentially the QB and other roster decisions cost them 3 draft picks (this year's 5th and 6th, plus whatever they gave for Tarvaris) in addition to Thigpen's salary and season-long access to our 4th round pick.

 

Carrying thigpen cost us 7 players and 4 draft picks?

 

It's one roster spot- it had us put one player- likely a wr- on the PS instead of the active roster.

 

I think that's pretty fair.

Edited September 3, 2012 by NoSaint

[Kelly the Dog]

Essentially the QB and other roster decisions cost them 3 draft picks (this year's 5th and 6th, plus whatever they gave for Tarvaris) in addition to Thigpen's salary and season-long access to our 4th round pick.

While you are absolutely correct that the roster is chosen based on a lot of factors and often problems at position A directly affect the choices at position B or C, the ONLY reason that our #5 pick got cut is because he was outplayed by last year's #5 pick, Chris White. That is really the whole of it. If Tank outplayed him, he would have stayed. We kept 7 LBs, like we were expected to (Barnett, Shep, Moats, Bradham, Scott, Morrison and White).

 

Asper, too, had a terrible camp by all accounts. He wasn't highly rated as a draft pick and was being asked to change positions. We were expected to keep this many linemen, Nix and Gailey hoped that Asper would be able to beat out Colin Brown because he could play two positions instead of one, but he simply didn't.

 

Neither of those draft picks were released because of problems at other positions. The WRs cut, like Hagan, Roosevelt, Easley, etc. sure... you could make a strong case that the 4 QBs we had to keep for a couple weeks made it difficult if not impossible to keep 5 WR (if they wanted Dickerson). But not those two specific draft picks, Tank and Asper.

 

Furthermore, Brooks the #4 broke his foot. He was probably going to be out for 6-8 weeks anyway, and he's probably going to be our designated IR guy that returns. If he is not on the active roster, he will be replaced (IMO almost for sure) by another CB, and one CB will be let go when Brooks returns. It may not work out exactly like that, but for all intents and purposes I would bet on it. And we were always going to keep 5 CBs, and still are. I don't think other positions affected that pick either.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Kelly the Dog

[artmalibu]

Be fair, it's not that simple. Roster decisions are made as a whole. Because we need to carry more DBs due to injury and the new IR rule, and because we chose to carry 4 QB and a kickoff specialist, we wound up making some decisions that might not work to the long term good of the team - such as cutting our 5th and 6th round draft picks and IR'ing one of our 4th (quick: what body part did he injure?), as well as paring our WR corps to the bone. I'm sure the coaches and staff thought long and hard before making their choices. Essentially the QB and other roster decisions cost them 3 draft picks (this year's 5th and 6th, plus whatever they gave for Tarvaris) in addition to Thigpen's salary and season-long access to our 4th round pick.

 

Could you explain?

[Saint Doug]

 

Because we're playing one of the most important games of the year against a tough blitzing defense on Sunday and we only have one healthy QB besides Thigpen that knows the plays.

 

True, but we were going to keep TT anyhow, be it him making 5 million or $50,000. Him making a million less doesn't make this situation any more Kosher. And if him making a million less really matters, then Ralph's cheap.

 

If I were TT, I would have told Nix to shove it and would have dared him to cut me. We all know that he wasn't going to be cut.

[NoSaint]

 

 

True, but we were going to keep TT anyhow, be it him making 5 million or $50,000. Him making a million less doesn't make this situation any more Kosher. And if him making a million less really matters, then Ralph's cheap.

 

If I were TT, I would have told Nix to shove it and would have dared him to cut me. We all know that he wasn't going to be cut.

 

With extending other guys, having that extra million can mean 5mil in signing bonus flexibility. So that's a nice perk. Not make or break, but nice.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

So if you're going to waste time teaching him the WC plays, then he'll never become the #2 QB He doesn't even know the regular playbook yet, he doesn't have time to become the wildcat guy.

 

Mark my words. Brad Smith will no longer be listed as the 3rd QB because he sucks at it. Je will be the 4-5th WR but will see plenty of playing time at the position and as the WC back.

 

Thigpen will be the 3rd option at QB, maybe even the 2nd if Jackson can prove to be a viable option at the WC which I'd be all for it because he actually can and does pass rather nicely.

 

1500 posts, I'm a vet now!!

Edited September 3, 2012 by Ed_Roch

[Kelly the Dog]

 

If I were TT, I would have told Nix to shove it and would have dared him to cut me. We all know that he wasn't going to be cut.

I think that is exactly what happened. Nix said we will have to cut you, take the pay cut or you will be out of a job, and he took the pay cut. Otherwise, why would he take it?

 

If Brad Smith didn't hurt his groin, we probably would not have kept TT at all (although I don't know that for sure). But that was Gailey's first response when asked about keeping Thigpen, that he didnt know if Smith would be ready for the jets game and he didnt like going into a game with only two healthy QBs (especially because one of them doesn't know all the plays yet).

[NoSaint]

 

I think that is exactly what happened. Nix said we will have to cut you, take the pay cut or you will be out of a job, and he took the pay cut. Otherwise, why would he take it?

 

If Brad Smith didn't hurt his groin, we probably would not have kept TT at all (although I don't know that for sure). But that was Gailey's first response when asked about keeping Thigpen, that he didnt know if Smith would be ready for the jets game and he didnt like going into a game with only two healthy QBs (especially because one of them doesn't know all the plays yet).

 

No right answer here:

 

Smith is healthy, fitz gets blasted on the first play.... Would BS go in?

 

My best guess and what it means to the breakdown: brad smith cannot play qb for 4 quarters - no way, no how. So regardless of his injury we need a legit #2 on the roster come week 1. Tjack isn't that guy yet. That means to me that even with a healthy brad smith, that the day VY was cut, thigpen made this squad. Jackson may push him off down the line (that's the safe money) but the Vince cut, not the brad smith injury is the moment he made the 53.

[Kelly the Dog]

No right answer here:

 

Smith is healthy, fitz gets blasted on the first play.... Would BS go in?

 

My best guess and what it means to the breakdown: brad smith cannot play qb for 4 quarters - no way, no how. So regardless of his injury we need a legit #2 on the roster come week 1. Tjack isn't that guy yet. That means to me that even with a healthy brad smith, that the day VY was cut, thigpen made this squad. Jackson may push him off down the line (that's the safe money) but the Vince cut, not the brad smith injury is the moment he made the 53.

I agree there is no right answer. What I do think is a real possibility is the Bills just said we are not willing to pay TT 2.5 mil for two weeks. If Smith was healthy they COULD cut him and go into the Jets game with Fitz, hoping he is not hurt, Jackson able to play a couple series if he needed to, he could surely be able to learn enough plays for that. Smith to run the Wildcat a series here or there so Jackson wouldn't have to play as much, and in an emergency, Smith would have to play QB a series or two. I genuinely believe that Gailey could have lived with that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Carrying thigpen cost us 7 players and 4 draft picks?

 

Where did I say that? I believe the words I used were "the QB and other roster decisions"

[NoSaint]

 

 

Where did I say that? I believe the words I used were "the QB and other roster decisions"

 

But the discussion was what thigpen cost.

 

If we were discussing the full 53 it'd be fair. In discussing what thigpen cost, my assessment that it was one wr going to the practice squad was very fair, which you disputed, listing about a half dozen guys, and the picks used on those guys and adding in guys that could've been kept if we were healthy at cb, if we didn't keep an extra kicker, etc....

 

 

I agree there is no right answer. What I do think is a real possibility is the Bills just said we are not willing to pay TT 2.5 mil for two weeks. If Smith was healthy they COULD cut him and go into the Jets game with Fitz, hoping he is not hurt, Jackson able to play a couple series if he needed to, he could surely be able to learn enough plays for that. Smith to run the Wildcat a series here or there so Jackson wouldn't have to play as much, and in an emergency, Smith would have to play QB a series or two. I genuinely believe that Gailey could have lived with that.

Could be true. Essentially, it's just assessing how risk averse chan is and how complicated he thinks his playbook is.

 

I'd like to think we wouldn't ever roll with BS as #2 but the reality is, if fitz broke his leg last year we would've been rolling with thigpen, a qb with 1 week on the roster the following sunday, and BS so I can't say your wrong by any means. I may not agree but can't say your wrong!

Edited September 3, 2012 by NoSaint

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Could you explain?

 

Well, I can try. Not sure I can do any better than I already did. I'll try to line it out.

 

The Bills made a decision to cut Vince Young and trade for Tarvaris Jackson. Net impact: -1 draft pick

Tarvaris Jackson had zip time to learn our system. That means Thiggy stays. Net impact: -1 roster spot

Bills decided to keep kickoff return specialist Net impact: -1 roster spot

Bills decided to keep 2 injured DBs on the roster, one past 4Sep deadline Net impact: -2 roster spots

In order to free up a roster spot, Bills keep only 4 WR (will prob. pull 1 back when the IR Brooks): Net impact: +1 roster spot

 

So the Bills need to free up 3 roster spots.

Place 4th round pick Zebrie Sanders (?what's hurt Zebrie?) on IR, rendering him unavailable to Bills and unable to practice for season: Net impact +1 roster spot

Cut 5th and 6th round picks Net impact: +2 roster spots

5th and 6th round picks promising enough to get signed off waivers. Net impact: -2 draft picks

 

So overall, by making the roster decisions that were made (late QB trade, keeping 4 QB on roster, keeping kickoff specialist, keeping injured DBs), cost the Bills 3 draft picks (2012 5th and 6th plus whatever they gave for TJax) as well as access to a 2012 4th round pick for the season and his ability to practice with the team and improve.

 

And, Thigpen's salary, since it's a sucker bet he'll be on the opening day roster.

 

All of these may be the best decisions for the Bills right now and for this season. It depends on what you think the potential of the draft picks that were sacrificed really was. Maybe it was low and they gave up really little. Maybe they gave up a good player. The way Nix stockpiles picks, I'm sure he didn't do it lightly.

[truth on hold]

 

 

No. There was no common sense. How does paying him 1.5 million instead of 2.5 make him a player that doesn't suck? This whole situation reeks of stupidity:

 

Nix: hey, Tyler. We're gonna cut you because you suck.

Thigpen: wait, I really don't want to be cut. My Mom will kill me! How about you give me 1.5 million instead? You'll save a million dollars!

Nix: Well, son, I like your style. You got a deal!

Probably because the 2.5 wasnt guaranteed and the 1.5 is. Thats the swap they made. So if TT gets cut before 1.5/2.5 of the season is played he. makes more. Lasts longer he loses. Basically he thinks he's going to get during the year

[Hapless Bills Fan]

But the discussion was what thigpen cost.

 

If we were discussing the full 53 it'd be fair. In discussing what thigpen cost, my assessment that it was one wr going to the practice squad was very fair, which you disputed

 

Yes, exactly - you were making the assumption that all Thigpen cost was a #6 WR to the PS.

My point is it's not that simple, the Bills may have planned to keep only 5 WR in any event due to other choices and their choice for #5 was likely not PS eligible

I don't see how it's a fair assumption at all that the spot Thigpen took was slated in for a PS-eligible WR they likely wouldn't have kept on the 53 even if Thigpen left town

 

It's not a zero sum game, the roster choices the Bills made this year at the 53 man cutdown are interesting (to me anyway) but they did have a cost more than $$.

 

Now mind you, I'm not particularly upset about it. 3 years from now, if Carder goes to the Probowl and Asper is an all-pro OLman, we can all watch this board P&M, but neither of them looked all-world to me and I have to assume, if they did, Chix and Nailey would have chosen another path.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Now mind you, I'm not particularly upset about it. 3 years from now, if Carder goes to the Probowl and Asper is an all-pro OLman, we can all watch this board P&M, but neither of them looked all-world to me and I have to assume, if they did, Chix and Nailey would have chosen another path.

As I stated above, neither of those guys were cut due to roster limitations, and I would love to see any argument whatsoever that makes you believe they were. Tank got beat out by the #5 from last year Chris White, plain and simple. There was no way we were keeping eight LBs for 3 positions. 7 was always the number talked about and that's how many we kept. If Carder played well, or beat out White, he would have stayed. I hope you're not implying that we would have kept 8 linebackers in a 4-3.

 

Asper, as well, was brought in to beat out Colin Brown. Nix stated as much when Asper was drafted. They liked his versatility and wanted him to be able to play C and G, thereby saving a roster spot not on the team but even moreso on gameday. But he sucked, and he didn't beat out Colin Brown. So they opted to keep the guy who could only play C instead of Asper. We were always going to keep 9 OL, 1 C, 4 OG (with Urbik able to play C), and 4 OT. Because Asper didn't beat out Brown, we kept 2 C, 3 G and 4 T.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

As I stated above, neither of those guys were cut due to roster limitations, and I would love to see any argument whatsoever that makes you believe they were.

 

Well, I think those arguments have been made elsewhere, so sorry to be disobliging on what you'd love to see. We'll have to agree to disagree. 'night!

[Kelly the Dog]

Well, I think those arguments have been made elsewhere, so sorry to be disobliging on what you'd love to see. We'll have to agree to disagree. 'night!

No, they haven't as far as I have seen. I looked at every post in this thread. I read most threads. I could be wrong but nowhere have you or anyone made the case that 1] Carder would have been kept in addition to Chris White and the team would have kept 8 linebackers, or that 2] Asper would have been kept in addition to Colin Brown and the Bills wanted to and would have kept 10 OL but couldn't because we had to keep 4 QBs. And 3] You repeatedly bring up the #4 pick Ron Brooks as if he kept an extra roster spot, too, when he didn't at all. We kept 5, he will go on IR for 6 or more weeks and then come back as soon as he is healthy. We couldn't have IRd him earlier because then he wouldn't be eligible to come back this year when we want him to. He will be IRd soon, and in all likelihood another CB will be put on the active roster in his place because we want and need 5.

 

Again, none of those three fit your scenario. Sorry.

[benderbender]

Thigpen takes a million dollar payout to hold a clipboard and not come into a regular season game, a huge personal sacrifice

[WhickedWilliams]

 

 

No. There was no common sense. How does paying him 1.5 million instead of 2.5 make him a player that doesn't suck? This whole situation reeks of stupidity:

 

Nix: hey, Tyler. We're gonna cut you because you suck.

Thigpen: wait, I really don't want to be cut. My Mom will kill me! How about you give me 1.5 million instead? You'll save a million dollars!

Nix: Well, son, I like your style. You got a deal!

[Dragonborn10]

I applaud Nix/Gailey for giving up on VY. I will admit I thought it was a good signing. What is unforgivable is only draftng one QB in three years when your starter is at best mediocre, and the back-up situation is now a mess. They wasted late round draft picks on trading up to get a WR that they likely could have gotten anyways and a LB that gets cut and not even signed to the PS. I have no faith in Nix and his draft acumen. I suspect any success he was associated with was Butler and AJ Smith. However to not even take a chance on a mid to late round QB other than Levi Brown is shameful.