ThurmasThoman Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 I think this thread confirms that the National Football League made the right decision in destroying all of the tapes that New England had which proved they cheated. It has almost been erased from the consciousness of America, and our national religion is allowed to go on, unquestioned, and continue to earn billions of dollars a year, without messy subjects like "fixed games," "cheating," and "las vegas" coming into play. Is Lance Armstrong the best cyclist ever? Is Barry Bonds the greatest home run hitter of all time? Is Tom Brady the best quarterback ever? If you think it's silly to lump those 3 together - you're right, it is. It's insulting to both Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds, who have no evidence against them that they ever cheated, unlike the New England Patriots, who receieved the harshest penalty in the history of the National Football League--for cheating! Once again - The New England Patriots were punished for cheating. How their field general (who has won ZERO championships since this scandal) can be mentioned as one of the greatest of all times, is beyond me. I live in New England. I have watched more Patriot games than any 5 people on this board, combined, and then multiplied by 20. I have essentially watched all, part of, or most of every game Tom Brady has ever played. The way they "won" those games during their Super Bowl "era" was absolutely, fundamentally--for lack of a better word--uncanny. You can't understand if you only saw the playoff games, or the Super Bowls, or the games they played a clearly inferior Bills team, or the nationally televised games. You had to see them week in and week out. Like the Steelers said, Brady was calling out their defensive signals at the line, he knew their defense better than the Steelers did. The Patriots were just, outmatched, outplayed, and outclassed in 99% of their games, from 2001 through 2007. But yet, they always found a way to win. Always. The St. Louis Rams of 2002 were one of the greatest offenses in the history of professional football--this thread should be about Kurt Warner--yet they got sideswiped in what should have been the second of their back to back Super Bowl wins. And this isn't just a Bills fan saying this--the fraternity of NFL players, from Kurt Warner to James Harrison feel the same way. Kurt Warner, the good Christian, NFL dignitary says this about Tom Brady: "Warner suggests New England would tape opponents' defensive signals from the sidelines, as it was caught doing against the Jets this season, to decode the communications and file them away for a future game against the same team. If the coaches know the defensive signals, he says, they can filter information to the quarterback through the headset in his helmet, which shuts off with 15 seconds left on the play clock. "If teams kept their signals the same, then you could get a bead on them and be able to have that information," Warner says. "It would be a distinct advantage." So no, Tom Brady is not the greatest QB of all time.
truth on hold Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Given all the coach and player suspensions, and factoring in lost wages, saints fine for cheating was far greater
sllib olaffub Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Brady's career isn't over with, yet. He might go on to win another SB or two. These arguments, to me, are somewhat comical - like trying to say who the greatest Boxer of all time is - you've got various weights to consider, you've got the change in the sport over time. Basketball, too - how can you compare players of such different time periods? One way to get around the change in the sport over time, and how that affects your ability to accurately compare QB's, is to just say, who is the greatest QB of a particular era? In that regard, I'd have to say, which QB mastered the mechanics, the play calling, and was able to fulfill the role of the QB during games - but especially the biggest ones - and lift the team to its highest level? A few QB's come to mind - Montana, Elway, Brady, Manning (and, I think Brees and Rodgers are going to be in this conversation soon, too). One thing that makes Brady different from many of these players - I think - came to my mind while listening to a radio station speaking on this very subject. The radio man was reading off the cast of players that Montana was surrounded by - and I was astounded! He had All Pro's and H.O.F.'ers all over the place. Manning had some really dynamic offenses - AND, he had an Offensive Coordinator who we all know just makes good offenses, in other words, there is a real systems thing to consider there. Another point to consider is how many big games did the QB's lose? Elway lost 3 before he won any. Manning has lost quite a few big ones before he ever won the big one. All things considered, I don't know who is the best. I know of the players currently in the NFL, I really wouldn't be able to choose anyone over Brady in big games - at this time. He is just too cool, too consistent, and he really seems to take the game PERSONALLY - which I like to see, because it means he is in it for much more than the money, and he is putting his all into it. He's been through a ton of different Offensive Coordinators, offensive personnel, and it seems no matter how many pieces around him are stripped and sent off to the copy cats around the league, he still puts up amazing numbers, still gets the job done. I wouldn't question it at all - if he were our QB, our line, our RB's, and our WR's would all look like stars. So, that is the way I'd judge it - who would I choose to play in a SB if I were to pick from active players - and it'd be Brady. However - I happen to think Cam Newton is gonig to become a totally new breed of QB, and might change that position so much that he can't be compared to anyone else, and he might be unstoppable in that regard, if the right players and scheme are in place around him (kind of a Michael Jordan of football). Also, Aaron Rodgers, in my mind, is playing QB BETTER THAN ANYONE the last 2+ years. The only reason I chose Brady over Rodgers is because we know from experience how good Brady is in big games. I think Rodgers has outplayed all other QB's, though, and will probably be considered the best active QB in a few years time.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Manning over Brady** when you have an owner blo wing Roger and have rules created for your QB so he doesn't crack... Speaking of the blo wing owner, he's out there claiming Cinderfella is better than Montana. If it wasn't got spygate, and the Tuck Rule, flasification of injury reports and other items... I don't recall Joe needing a kicker to save his sorry ass on multiple occasions!!! . Did the NFL ever suspend the Putz player for his charges for dealing pot?
Pneumonic Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) I think this thread confirms that the National Football League made the right decision in destroying all of the tapes that New England had which proved they cheated. It has almost been erased from the consciousness of America, and our national religion is allowed to go on, unquestioned, and continue to earn billions of dollars a year, without messy subjects like "fixed games," "cheating," and "las vegas" coming into play. Is Lance Armstrong the best cyclist ever? Is Barry Bonds the greatest home run hitter of all time? Is Tom Brady the best quarterback ever? If you think it's silly to lump those 3 together - you're right, it is. It's insulting to both Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds, who have no evidence against them that they ever cheated, unlike the New England Patriots, who receieved the harshest penalty in the history of the National Football League--for cheating! Once again - The New England Patriots were punished for cheating. How their field general (who has won ZERO championships since this scandal) can be mentioned as one of the greatest of all times, is beyond me. I live in New England. I have watched more Patriot games than any 5 people on this board, combined, and then multiplied by 20. I have essentially watched all, part of, or most of every game Tom Brady has ever played. The way they "won" those games during their Super Bowl "era" was absolutely, fundamentally--for lack of a better word--uncanny. You can't understand if you only saw the playoff games, or the Super Bowls, or the games they played a clearly inferior Bills team, or the nationally televised games. You had to see them week in and week out. Like the Steelers said, Brady was calling out their defensive signals at the line, he knew their defense better than the Steelers did. The Patriots were just, outmatched, outplayed, and outclassed in 99% of their games, from 2001 through 2007. But yet, they always found a way to win. Always. The St. Louis Rams of 2002 were one of the greatest offenses in the history of professional football--this thread should be about Kurt Warner--yet they got sideswiped in what should have been the second of their back to back Super Bowl wins. And this isn't just a Bills fan saying this--the fraternity of NFL players, from Kurt Warner to James Harrison feel the same way. Kurt Warner, the good Christian, NFL dignitary says this about Tom Brady: "Warner suggests New England would tape opponents' defensive signals from the sidelines, as it was caught doing against the Jets this season, to decode the communications and file them away for a future game against the same team. If the coaches know the defensive signals, he says, they can filter information to the quarterback through the headset in his helmet, which shuts off with 15 seconds left on the play clock. "If teams kept their signals the same, then you could get a bead on them and be able to have that information," Warner says. "It would be a distinct advantage." So no, Tom Brady is not the greatest QB of all time. Indeed, now that they can't cheat we are seeing them for what they truly are; a team that cannot win if their life depended on it and a QB who is now a dud of a player Edited September 1, 2012 by Pneumonic
sllib olaffub Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 The one thing about the Patriots that has changed, IMO, from the SuperBowl teams to the recent ones, all of which coached by Bellicheck - the defense. I am a Bills fan and no other, but I was always really envious of the Patriots defenses when they were winning the superbowls. I just remember seeing a lot of really creative, unorthodox stuff going on, and I really think those defenses were more responsible for the SuperBowls than any other part of the team. The offense is still and has been, with Brady, unreal. The drafting has fallen off, and the defense has fallen far. Perhaps it was Romeo Crennel, and not Bellicheck, who was responsible for those defenses? The Kansas City team, playing for Crennel, played well, and their Defense looks to be pretty good...
Pneumonic Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 The one thing about the Patriots that has changed, IMO, from the SuperBowl teams to the recent ones, all of which coached by Bellicheck - the defense. I am a Bills fan and no other, but I was always really envious of the Patriots defenses when they were winning the superbowls. I just remember seeing a lot of really creative, unorthodox stuff going on, and I really think those defenses were more responsible for the SuperBowls than any other part of the team. The offense is still and has been, with Brady, unreal. The drafting has fallen off, and the defense has fallen far. Perhaps it was Romeo Crennel, and not Bellicheck, who was responsible for those defenses? The Kansas City team, playing for Crennel, played well, and their Defense looks to be pretty good... What has changed is the Pats have re-built their entire team since the last SB win and have done so while not missing a beat. It's amazing how they have transformed this team entirely, while still dominating in the AFC, and are today a strong SB favourite for the upcoming season after coming off a SB appearance last year. The only constant in all of this has been Brady and Belichick.
Drewgetz Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 In order for that to happen I think a QB would have to play on different teams or least very different systems. To have the same coach your whole career does not bring out adversity and that is what makes players (and people in general) great. Thinking presently if Peyton pulls the broncos to stardom with his arm and mind then he would be considered way before brady. IMO
stinky finger Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 *Tuck rule. Some may say Peyton is better and I'd agree. Little brother needs mentioning here. He's 2-0 vs Tommy in the biggest of games and outplayed him as well. I'll take Eli all.....day....long.
Drewgetz Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 *Tuck rule. Some may say Peyton is better and I'd agree. Little brother needs mentioning here. He's 2-0 vs Tommy in the biggest of games and outplayed him as well. I'll take Eli all.....day....long. I don't care how good anybody says Eli is. I will never like the man if no other reason then his draft day acting like he is bigger then the game and thinking he didn't have to play for anybody He didn't want to. Sorry, that stuff bothers me. Other then that, with the (Nike?) commercial where it's raining and he is tearing himself out of a football acting all tough, all I could see was a baby face. That just made me laugh at him. (yeah yeah yeah, who wouldn't want to be him speech has been heard) I just don't like the guy. PS. If you can rattle tom brady, you can beat tom brady. Doesn't = greatness to me.
miserable_fan Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Peyton Manning > Tom Brady. Watch how Brady plays now. He is mirroring everything Manning has done in his career. Audibles, quick hitches, no huddle, etc. Manning has revolutionized the game. I've never seen Montana play in his prime so I can't really say who's the best ever. I can, however, say that Peyton Manning is the greatest player I've ever seen. Hands down. Brady is awesome, but Peyton is better.
Dragonborn10 Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 I can't place Manning at the top. Best regular season QB of all time? Maybe. He has been average at best in the post-season.
ThurmasThoman Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Indeed, now that they can't cheat we are seeing them for what they truly are; a team that cannot win if their life depended on it and a QB who is now a dud of a player Am I supposed to get a tent in my pants over Brady, and crown him as the greatest, when, since being punished for cheating, he has had his ass handed to him by Eli in 2 super bowls? Would that not make Eli better than Brady, and in turn, the best quarterback of all time? Because really, it's the super bowl "wins" that put brady in this discussion of "best ever," and the fact that those super bowl wins shouldnt exist changes the conversation a tad, no?
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Posted September 2, 2012 PS. If you can rattle tom brady, you can beat tom brady. Doesn't = greatness to me. Yep...can you imagine John Elway getting rattled? All you have to do is re-watch the Green Bay super bowl and you'll see what it looks like to "not get rattled".
Pneumonic Posted September 2, 2012 Posted September 2, 2012 Am I supposed to get a tent in my pants over Brady, and crown him as the greatest, when, since being punished for cheating, he has had his ass handed to him by Eli in 2 super bowls? Would that not make Eli better than Brady, and in turn, the best quarterback of all time? Because really, it's the super bowl "wins" that put brady in this discussion of "best ever," and the fact that those super bowl wins shouldnt exist changes the conversation a tad, no? I think it's premature to select Brady as GOAT while he's still playing. I do, however, believe that should he continue to put up stats as he's currently doing he's certainly going to be in the discussion when all is said and done. And, should he win another SB, he's probably going to end up atop the heap. Not sure I share your belief that Brady should personally be discredited for the whole spygate thingy. For starters because I don't believe it was that big a deal and secondly because Brady's never performed better as a QB since the spygate fiasco. Yep...can you imagine John Elway getting rattled? All you have to do is re-watch the Green Bay super bowl and you'll see what it looks like to "not get rattled". If one determines a QB's greatness by how well he handles being rattled then Big Ben is the greatest of all time.
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Posted September 2, 2012 I think it's premature to select Brady as GOAT while he's still playing. I do, however, believe that should he continue to put up stats as he's currently doing he's certainly going to be in the discussion when all is said and done. And, should he win another SB, he's probably going to end up atop the heap. Not sure I share your belief that Brady should personally be discredited for the whole spygate thingy. For starters because I don't believe it was that big a deal and secondly because Brady's never performed better as a QB since the spygate fiasco. If one determines a QB's greatness by how well he handles being rattled then Big Ben is the greatest of all time. True, Ben is friggin great in those terms. I think greatness is determined by several factors. Ben was clutch in that Arizona super bowl...I thought for sure Warner and Fitz had put the game away.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2012 Posted September 2, 2012 In the conversation, sure. I dont think I could put him #1 though. Watching Cassel take that team to 11-5 took the wind out of Brady's sail a bit. I think when Peyton wins the Super Bowl with Denver, which I think he will, he will be considered the greatest.
Pneumonic Posted September 2, 2012 Posted September 2, 2012 True, Ben is friggin great in those terms. I think greatness is determined by several factors. Ben was clutch in that Arizona super bowl...I thought for sure Warner and Fitz had put the game away. Ben may be a dick but he's a top QB who I believe is too stupid to know that getting hit hurts. I suppose that's an admirable trait for a QB to have.
ajzepp Posted September 2, 2012 Posted September 2, 2012 Ben may be a dick but he's a top QB who I believe is too stupid to know that getting hit hurts. I suppose that's an admirable trait for a QB to have. I agree. I don't really like the guy (based on what I know about him...not that I know him personally) but I respect his game for sure. He's a rugged son of a gun and he's clutch. TD was really eager to trade up for him from what I understand...we would have been a completely different franchise if that had happened....and I bet TD woulld even still be here.
RI Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2012 Posted September 2, 2012 Multiple Superbowl starts by QB's Terry Bradshaw 4-0 100% Joe Montana 4-0 100% Troy Aikman 3-0 100 % Bart Starr 2-0 100% Jim Plunkett 2-0 100% Eli Manning 2-0 100% Ben Rothlesburger 2-1 66% Bob Greise 2-1 66% Tom Brady 3-2 60% Then there's these guys: Dan Marino Otto Graham Sammy Baugh Peyton Manning John Elway Steve Young Johnny Unitas Dan Fouts Tom Brady might make the top ten, But greatest of all time? Nope, not even close.
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