The concept of the "statesman"

[chicot]

In June 1961, Mandela sent a letter to South African newspapers warning the government, that if they did not meet their demands, the Umkhonto we Sizwe would embark on a campaign of sabotage. The letter demanded the government accept a call for a national constitutional convention.^[40] The demands were not met by the government and beginning on 16 December 1961, the Umkhonto we Sizwe with Mandela as its leader, launched a bombing campaign against government targets with the first action of the campaign being the bombing of an electricity sub-station.^[41] In total, over the next eighteen months, the Umkhonto we Sizwe would initiate dozens more acts of sabotage and bombings. The South African government alleged more acts of sabotage had been carried out and at the Rivonia trial the accused would be charged with 193 acts of sabotage in total.^[42] The campaign of sabotage against the government included attacks on government posts, machines, power facilities, and crop burning in various places including Johannesburg, Port Elizabeth and Durban. ^[43]

Later, mostly in the 1980s, MK, the organisation co-founded by Mandela, waged a guerrilla war against the apartheid government in which many civilians became casualties.^[37] For example, the Church Street bomb in Pretoria killed 19 people and injured 217. After he had become President, Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, criticising those in his own party who attempted to remove statements mentioning this from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.^[44]

 

That's a statesman?

 

Are you a pacifist? If no, then I have two further questions:

 

1) Do you agree that apartheid was an evil oppressive system that it was right to fight against?

2) Please enlighten us as to how exactly you would have managed to combat apartheid without anyone getting hurt?

[Rob's House]

Are you a pacifist? If no, then I have two further questions:

 

1) Do you agree that apartheid was an evil oppressive system that it was right to fight against?

2) Please enlighten us as to how exactly you would have managed to combat apartheid without anyone getting hurt?

I myself once dabbled in pacifism. Not in Nam, of course.

[DC Tom]

Are you a pacifist? If no, then I have two further questions:

 

1) Do you agree that apartheid was an evil oppressive system that it was right to fight against?

2) Please enlighten us as to how exactly you would have managed to combat apartheid without anyone getting hurt?

 

3) Is it a statesman-like thing to do, resorting to violence to force change?

 

Which, really, is the point of the thread.

[chicot]

3) Is it a statesman-like thing to do, resorting to violence to force change?

 

Which, really, is the point of the thread.

 

In that case, was George Washington a statesman?

[DC Tom]

In that case, was George Washington a statesman?

 

Far more accurate analogy: was Francis Marion a statesman?

[chicot]

Far more accurate analogy: was Francis Marion a statesman?

 

Perhaps it is but my knowledge of American revolutionary history is somewhat less than yours so I chose Washington as an obvious example of someone who I would expect many to describe as a statesman but resorted to violence to force change.

[DC Tom]

Perhaps it is but my knowledge of American revolutionary history is somewhat less than yours so I chose Washington as an obvious example of someone who I would expect many to describe as a statesman but resorted to violence to force change.

 

Which is also why I didn't call you an idiot.

[CosmicBills]

Perhaps it is but my knowledge of American revolutionary history is somewhat less than yours so I chose Washington as an obvious example of someone who I would expect many to describe as a statesman but resorted to violence to force change.

Which is also why I didn't call you an idiot.

 

We all just witnessed a nice moment there.

[3rdnlng]

 

 

Far more accurate analogy: was Francis Marion a statesman?

 

You sly fox, you.

[DC Tom]

We all just witnessed a nice moment there.

 

I'm only an !@#$ with a purpose.

[3rdnlng]

 

 

Are you a pacifist? If no, then I have two further questions:

 

1) Do you agree that apartheid was an evil oppressive system that it was right to fight against?

2) Please enlighten us as to how exactly you would have managed to combat apartheid without anyone getting hurt?

 

Ask Ghandi or MLK.

[chicot]

Ask Ghandi or MLK.

 

As I possess neither the power of time-travel nor the ability to resurrect the dead that may be somewhat difficult. I never realised you were such a passionate advocate of non-violence but I'll remember it the next time I find you cheerleading some US military action.

[3rdnlng]

 

 

As I possess neither the power of time-travel nor the ability to resurrect the dead that may be somewhat difficult. I never realised you were such a passionate advocate of non-violence but I'll remember it the next time I find you cheerleading some US military action.

 

When was the last time you observed me cheerleading some U.S. military action? Furthermore, aren't you from France?

[chicot]

When was the last time you observed me cheerleading some U.S. military action? Furthermore, aren't you from France?

 

No, I live in the UK.

 

Ok, fair point. I can't recall a time but I certainly wouldn't have taken you for an advocate of non-violence either. I'll rephrase that to "if I find you cheerleading some US military action"

[3rdnlng]

 

 

No, I live in the UK.

 

Ok, fair point. I can't recall a time but I certainly wouldn't have taken you for an advocate of non-violence either. I'll rephrase that to "if I find you cheerleading some US military action"

 

While not an advocate of blatant military action, I do see the necessity of it at times. Seems like we bailed out Europe's ass a couple of times and kept your country from all driving Volkswagens.

 

I find it humorous that just because I'm a conservative you classify me as some type of war mongerer. I take it you are liberal, should I assume you must be gay?

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Here's a quote from a "statesmen"

 

I stand by what I said, whatever it was. - Mitt Romney

[chicot]

While not an advocate of blatant military action, I do see the necessity of it at times. Seems like we bailed out Europe's ass a couple of times and kept your country from all driving Volkswagens.

 

I find it humorous that just because I'm a conservative you classify me as some type of war mongerer. I take it you are liberal, should I assume you must be gay?

 

I'm not the one advocating non-violence here. There are some things that should be fought against and, as far as I'm concerned, apartheid certainly falls into that category. If you're going to limit the definition of "statesman" to include only those who have used and advocated non-violent means then you going to be left with a very short list indeed.