TakeYouToTasker Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) It's not backed by any commodity other than trust, ultimately, if you want to call trust a commodity. But that's the point, isn't it? You can look at the intrinsic value of a dollar, as being no different than that of gold, silver, etc....and why? Because of the inherent value of the US, as a whole. The dollar is now a representation of the US economic strength...however defined. Or....I wonder how those clowns who were spreading the "the Euro will replace the dollar as the currency of choice" and "reserve currency status of US dollar in jeopardy are doing.... ...now that the Euro itself may not be around this time next year. The US Dollar is pegged to the production of future labor. The labor units themselves are the actual money, because the basis for all exchange becomes the barter of labor. How much time does it take for you to earn/acquire the currency to purchase a car? Your time represents the real money value of that object, not the absolute amount of dollars used. Edit: I'm off to bed for the night, and will resume tomorrow if either of you are interested. Edited August 22, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Explain to me how I would even get a cup of coffee if the government didn't built ports to import it, or stop pirates from stealing it, or stop organized crime from bleeding businesses to death, or build roads to transport the coffee? So without the government, you could not figure out how to even get a cup of coffee? No government, no coffee? That's the deal? Really? Did you just type that? Well, one thing you can say about this president...he sure can bring out the batschitt crazy in some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 The US Dollar is pegged to the production of future labor. The labor units themselves are the actual money, because the basis for all exchange becomes the barter of labor. How much time does it take for you to earn/acquire the currency to purchase a car? Your time represents the real money value of that object, not the absolute amount of dollars used. Edit: I'm off to bed for the night, and will resume tomorrow if either of you are interested. More classic economics bunk. The time it takes somebody to acquire currency to buy a car depends on that person's earning potential and wealth, which are not always one and the same. The 400 years of economics still gets you nowhere near predicting the future, and you still have 360 degree polarization of opinion among practitioners in the field. So please don't come here pretending that you've stumbled onto a Eureka moment of economics where the Austrian school is the accepted and proven science, which it is far from that. The dollar is not a representation of future labor production. Its value is pegged to the country's economic strength, currency convertibility and laws that back it. No matter the war you people have against the Fed, at the end of the day, the Fed does not have the final say on the greenback value. That's why comparisons to Zimbabwe are childish. Yet you accuse others of building strawmen. You may notice that people don't take kindly to proselytizers here, no matter what side you are on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I don't know about Zimbabwe...but I do know that an independently wealthy guy buying a blue Ford Taurus....is not the same as me buying one, in terms of the production of future labor. (First person to get that sub-reference gets a star) He just gets out his black Amex and drops it on the desk. Not much "labor" involved there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 So without the government, you could not figure out how to even get a cup of coffee? No government, no coffee? That's the deal? Really? Did you just type that? Well, one thing you can say about this president...he sure can bring out the batschitt crazy in some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) I don't know about Zimbabwe...but I do know that an independently wealthy guy buying a blue Ford Taurus....is not the same as me buying one, in terms of the production of future labor. (First person to get that sub-reference gets a star) He just gets out his black Amex and drops it on the desk. Not much "labor" involved there. The independantly wealthy individual has more aquired units of labor than you. The Amex Black is not what he pays with, it is simply his prefered method of currency transfer, although I think you understand this. In practice, it is exactly the same as you purchasing the same car, with the only diference being that he has already aquired the units of labor he wishes to exchange. As an aside, it needs to be understood that the aquisition of units of labor is not the same as the creation of units of labor. Simply beause the man in question has aquired an abundance of these units does not mean he created any of them. Edited August 23, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) More classic economics bunk. The time it takes somebody to acquire currency to buy a car depends on that person's earning potential and wealth, which are not always one and the same. The 400 years of economics still gets you nowhere near predicting the future, and you still have 360 degree polarization of opinion among practitioners in the field. So please don't come here pretending that you've stumbled onto a Eureka moment of economics where the Austrian school is the accepted and proven science, which it is far from that. of free The dollar is not a representation of future labor production. Its value is pegged to the country's economic strength, currency convertibility and laws that back it. No matter the war you people have against the Fed, at the end of the day, the Fed does not have the final say on the greenback value. That's why comparisons to Zimbabwe are childish. Yet you accuse others of building strawmen. Let me know when you're ready to stop behaving like a child, and then you can have claim to some of my time. You're speaking in fragmented terms, which are barely linked, and are denying facts that are universally accepted by virtually every school of economic thought; all in blind opposition to the Austrian school which you clearly don't understand well enough to oppose. Compounding your silliness, you appear to be a true believer of some unstated macro-school, but won't clarify which one in order to protect your hollow argument from scruitiny. In short, you're in far over your head. You may notice that people don't take kindly to proselytizers here, no matter what side you are on. Then perhaps you should sit down and shut up. Your ass is showing. Edited August 23, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) Wait...didn't you say "the time it takes"...etc.? Looking...yeah, you did. Therefore, a guy with a million in the bank's dollar would have a different value...because it takes 0 time to draw out ~$25k and pay for the car....than mine....because it takes me much longer to generate that cash with my labor. Therefore, the time...means that the value of the dollar is different for each of us. But, when are talking market value, which is value for everyone...then that's incongruent. The price of the car is what it is, and the effort required to pay for it today...is not the same for me and the millionaire. Yeah, a single dollar means more to a guy who makes minimum wage, than it does to me. But, that's obvious. And, we can't use that to determine the intrinsic value of that dollar for everyone. Not helping yourself here. Edited August 22, 2012 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) Wait...didn't you say "the time it takes"...etc.? Looking...yeah, you did. Therefore, a guy with a million in the bank's dollar would have a different value...because it takes 0 time to draw out ~$25k and pay for the car....than mine....because it takes me much longer to generate that cash with my labor. Therefore, the time...means that the value of the dollar is different for each of us. But, when are talking market value, which is value for everyone...then that's incongruent. The price of the car is what it is, and the effort required to pay for it today...is not the same for me and the millionaire. Yeah, a single dollar means more to a guy who makes minimum wage, than it does to me. But, that's obvious. And, we can't use that to determine the intrinsic value of that dollar for everyone. Not helping yourself here. As I said last night before heading off to bed: "The US Dollar is pegged to the production of future labor. The labor units themselves are the actual money, because the basis for all exchange becomes the barter of labor. How much time does it take for you to earn/acquire the currency to purchase a car? Your time represents the real money value of that object, not the absolute amount of dollars used." Now I'll expand because your last post segues nicely: Your time represents the real money value of that car, not the absolute amount of dollars used, and because labor has different currency valuations, the fiat currency demands an inordinately imbalanced money system. Bill Gates' labor is worth more than yours in currency terms. Why does his labor generate more dollars per unit measure of time than yours? These are the fundamental problems of the fiat currency, and because our system of paper money reduces the individual human being to a commodity and ties their economic power to the fluctuating value of their time, it reduces economic mobility as a side effect. IE: Non-Unionized hard work ceases to be a viable means of achieving economic stability. You must be smarter, faster, stronger than your competitors. Because currency is now tied to labor and various individuals have different values per unit time, the money supply is neither naturally regulated nor naturally limited by the current availability of resources. Thus, the emergence of global paper markets (read: the European debt crisis). Because we're doing nothing more than trading time and speculative production capability, there's no end to the amount of currency that can be generated/claimed by a unit of time of one person. Bill Gates still generates millions of dollars (currency) in value a second, while you make an amount orders of magnitude less, yet, labor is neither scarce nor limited by any real means short of a global apocalypse. Edited August 22, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Holy craptastic gobbledegook. You ask to be taken seriously, then you post a steaming plate of bunk on your theory of currency? Please. Whether it was the inane theory that expenses shouldn't be indexed to revenues or the current manifestation of wealth creation, it all equates to a compendium of incomprehensible words that don't make any sense in a sentence, let alone in a theory. I'm not a believer in some unstated macro-school, because it's all garbage when you try to apply it to forecasting. That's why each economist will tell you a different outcome to 2+2. You're proof positive why Dismal Science is a kind description of the field, especially with the idiotic notion that providing a service don't aid wealth creation. Bill Gates doesn't generate any currency. His wealth fluctuates based on something that he created 30 years ago and that somebody else is now minding the store. That currency is the value of his ownership of MSFT, and it has nothing to do with what the money supply does. As for the creation of the paper markets being the cause of European debt crisis, you should do well to read up on history of sovereign debts. This is not the first time that countries/governments got into debt problems. Let me guess, the Austrians predicted the French fiscal crisis that forced them to sell Louisiana Territory? Now I'm going to grab a Mai Tai and watch the Austrians heads explode as the world moves away from paper dollars to mobile & electronic transactions that are settled somewhere in the cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) Holy craptastic gobbledegook. You ask to be taken seriously, then you post a steaming plate of bunk on your theory of currency? Please. Whether it was the inane theory that expenses shouldn't be indexed to revenues or the current manifestation of wealth creation, it all equates to a compendium of incomprehensible words that don't make any sense in a sentence, let alone in a theory. I'm not a believer in some unstated macro-school, because it's all garbage when you try to apply it to forecasting. That's why each economist will tell you a different outcome to 2+2. You're proof positive why Dismal Science is a kind description of the field, especially with the idiotic notion that providing a service don't aid wealth creation. Bill Gates doesn't generate any currency. His wealth fluctuates based on something that he created 30 years ago and that somebody else is now minding the store. That currency is the value of his ownership of MSFT, and it has nothing to do with what the money supply does. As for the creation of the paper markets being the cause of European debt crisis, you should do well to read up on history of sovereign debts. This is not the first time that countries/governments got into debt problems. Let me guess, the Austrians predicted the French fiscal crisis that forced them to sell Louisiana Territory? Now I'm going to grab a Mai Tai and watch the Austrians heads explode as the world moves away from paper dollars to mobile & electronic transactions that are settled somewhere in the cloud. As I said, feel free to excuse yourself from the conversation. I'm not in the habit of doing free consulting for santimonius simpletons who dismiss entire Nobel fields with the wave of a hand, have no understanding of basic 101 concepts, and offer no opposing beliefs for rational debate. You aren't interested in a conversation, you're just looking for a pulpit to demagogue from; which is just as well, given you haven't shown the skill for debate, and that my time is valuable. Cheers. Edited August 23, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 As I said, feel free to excuse yourself from the conversation. I'm not in the habit of doing free consulting for santimonius simpletons who dismiss entire Nobel fields with the wave of a hand, Not just one...Economics AND Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) Not just one...Economics AND Peace. Some science too. Never mond that the Nobel in Economics have been given to practical economists who bridge economics, investing and finance, not to a shlub who rotely restates theories on product extraction. As I said, feel free to excuse yourself from the conversation. I'm not in the habit of doing free consulting for santimonius simpletons who dismiss entire Nobel fields with the wave of a hand, have no understanding of basic 101 concepts, and offer no opposing beliefs for rational debate. You aren't interested in a conversation, you're just looking for a pulpit to demagogue from; which is just a well, given you haven shown the skill for debate, and that my time is valuable. Cheers. If you think that you're providing consulting advice, you're sadly mistaken. We're eagerly awaiting an explanation on how services don't create wealth and how it's wrong for expenses to be indexed to revenues. Edited August 23, 2012 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) GG: No, see, that's not how this works. Once you settle down and begin behaving like an adult, I'll consider allowing you a seat at the grownup table where the ideas are discussed. So far you've managed to be rude, insulting, obstinate, and childishly dismissive. You've offered nothing resembling origional or borrowed thought, contributed nothing but canard and claptrap, and overall added nothing but noise to the conversation. You, like Park, have failed at worthwhile discussion; and are unwelcome until you demonstrate some maturity. Edited August 23, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 GG: No, see, that's not how this works. Once you setle down and begin behaving like an adult, I'll consider allowing you a seat at the grownup table where the ideas are discussed. So far you managed to be rude, insulting, obstinate, and childishly dismissive. You've offered nothing resembling origional or borrowed thought, contributed nothing but canard and claptrap, and overall added nothing but noise to the conversation. You, like Park, have failed at worthwhile discussion; and are unwelcome until you demonstrate some maturity. I suggest TPS mediates youins dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I suggest TPS mediates youins dispute. It's not a dispute until (*^*&%^$^#offers anything of substance. It's one person offering ideas and another screaming at the top of his lungs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 GG: No, see, that's not how this works. Once you setle down and begin behaving like an adult, I'll consider allowing you a seat at the grownup table where the ideas are discussed. So far you managed to be rude, insulting, obstinate, and childishly dismissive. You've offered nothing resembling origional or borrowed thought, contributed nothing but canard and claptrap, and overall added nothing but noise to the conversation. You, like Park, have failed at worthwhile discussion; and are unwelcome until you demonstrate some maturity. Eat your own medicine. Don't barge into threads with inane tangents, and then retreat into a textbook when someone calls you out on it. Use the search function, newbie. I don't debate grandstanders. Stay on topic, or get the treatment you've been receiving. We don't need TPS to moderate, as this is not a debate. I wonder what kind of world Tasker lives in where an adult conversation involves calling the other party a dipshit. Must be the world of trolls. You almost had me there, junior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 It's not a dispute until (*^*&%^$^#offers anything of substance. It's one person offering ideas and another screaming at the top of his lungs. You and GG are more alike than you know. TPS needs to straighten you guys out. Calling TPS............This could be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) Eat your own medicine. Don't barge into threads with inane tangents, and then retreat into a textbook when someone calls you out on it. Use the search function, newbie. I don't debate grandstanders. Stay on topic, or get the treatment you've been receiving. We don't need TPS to moderate, as this is not a debate. I wonder what kind of world Tasker lives in where an adult conversation involves calling the other party a dipshit. Must be the world of trolls. You almost had me there, junior. As I examine the thread title, I see that it states, in no uncertain terms, "that the public sector doesn't produce". There must be something germane to the discussion which it doesn't produce, no? Or is that to remain some unspoken, unknowable vaguery? Yes, yes... it's an intrusive scandal when one comments on the OP. The beauty of a message board is that the history of your ridiculousness in this thread is preserved. Edited August 23, 2012 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_dodgers007 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 So without the government, you could not figure out how to even get a cup of coffee? No government, no coffee? That's the deal? Really? Did you just type that? Well, one thing you can say about this president...he sure can bring out the batschitt crazy in some people. You are a stupid idiot. You are just as dumb as it it. Who prints the money? Huh? Do you have a job? I find it hard to believe you function in society because you are just such a slug brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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