Ramius Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 On the bomb to Jenkins where Williams got beat, am I the only one who saw Jenkins push off? He shoved Williams before going up for the catch.
Dorkington Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 Our CB play in general has left much to be desired, imo. We get beat on short throws way too often (which oddly enough, is McKelvin's strength). This is going to be a problem because teams will be doing this against us to counter our relatively strong pass rush (theoretically). I have no clue who should be starting, as they've all looked the same to me so far.
FreakPop Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 I posted this in another thread, but I really thought this topic deserved it's own thread..... I'm not sure why Aaron Williams seems to be catching so much criticism following last night's game. He looked pretty solid to me....even on that long (30+yd) reception by Jenkins....Williams was in his hip pocket the entire way, and even got his hand in on the ball and almost knocked it away....just a great play by the WR. Even the Vikings play-by-play guy acknowledged that Williams maintained excellent coverage. He had 2 other completions against him....both by Jerome Simpson. The first was a 4 yard reception for which Simpson faked a go-route, stopped and caught a pass from Ponder on a 4 yard out pattern. Williams respected Simpson's deep speed, adjusted well, and made a good tackle stopping him in his tracks. The second reception was a shallow crossing pattern by Simpson for which Williams was screened by another Vikings WR. Simpson should have been picked up by a linebacker, was not, and went for a decent gain. Again, I didn't notice any glaring mistakes by Williams in coverage or in run defense. After the game, the shoutbox was full of people calling for Williams to be replaced by Ron Brooks. One "shouter" even posted that McKelvin should take his place as the starting CB after his horrendous play. There were also several posts in "post-game discussion" threads stating that Aaron Williams sucks.....and so on and so forth. Maybe someone else noticed something I did not which would warrant such harsh criticism? I watched him pretty closely, but I don't claim to be any kind of expert. Thoughts?? it's because everybody thinks they know how football is played. In reality they don't, hence the criticism.
Matt in KC Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 On the bomb to Jenkins where Williams got beat, am I the only one who saw Jenkins push off? He shoved Williams before going up for the catch. I saw that. I think the normal refs would have flagged it half of the time (or a bit less). It was a veteran move that I think gets flagged only if the ref has a good view of it. Williams looks to me like a young talented player who is still growing, some days/plays better than others. Our CB play in general has left much to be desired, imo. We get beat on short throws way too often (which oddly enough, is McKelvin's strength). This is going to be a problem because teams will be doing this against us to counter our relatively strong pass rush (theoretically). I have no clue who should be starting, as they've all looked the same to me so far. I agree with this. It looks to me like the D line isn't getting it's hands up when the QB throws and the LBs are just not making those passes significantly harder to complete.
Malazan Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 The other thing to keep in mind is that Gailey has said numerous times that they weren't interested in making too many moves to help guys out. They wanted to see who stepped up. I think if Williams starts, he'll have more safety help than we've seen.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 On the bomb to Jenkins where Williams got beat, am I the only one who saw Jenkins push off? He shoved Williams before going up for the catch. Again: Also, I don't care if he's in position if he doesn't make the play. A good corner doesn't let a receiver get away with a subtle push in the back because a good corner slows down enough that there's no way the receiver will get anywhere near close to the ball. Just like a QB has to throw a ball where only his receiver can get it, a cornerback has to position himself where only he can catch it. If Williams is victimized on that play without learning, he'll be victimized many more times. It's like blocking out in basketball… position yourself where either you catch it or it falls to the ground. Leverage 101.
BuffaloFan68 Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 I feel that A Williams has a bad game against Minn. But so did a lot of other Def players. I still feel our LB group needs a LOT of work. They have been terrible so far this year. I wasn't a big fan of Barnett when we got him but he won me over last year. This year he seems slow & out of shape on the field. All of our LBs seem out of position at times so that tells me it is a coaching issue. Come on Buffalo, let's get this straightened out now - before week one.
Ramius Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 Again: Also, I don't care if he's in position if he doesn't make the play. A good corner doesn't let a receiver get away with a subtle push in the back because a good corner slows down enough that there's no way the receiver will get anywhere near close to the ball. Just like a QB has to throw a ball where only his receiver can get it, a cornerback has to position himself where only he can catch it. If Williams is victimized on that play without learning, he'll be victimized many more times. It's like blocking out in basketball… position yourself where either you catch it or it falls to the ground. Leverage 101. Michael Jenkins is 4 inches taller than Williams, and Ponder made a great back shoulder throw on the pass. That little push off (combined with the aforementioned details) gave him that extra little bit of separation that made all the difference on the play. On a play like that, the little push is what made Williams unable to get up there and knock the ball down. He was right there, turned, and got shoved. I'm sorry these facts don't fit your preconceived "Aaron Williams sucks" notion, but that's what happened on the play.
Matt in KC Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 Again: Also, I don't care if he's in position if he doesn't make the play. A good corner doesn't let a receiver get away with a subtle push in the back because a good corner slows down enough that there's no way the receiver will get anywhere near close to the ball. Michael Jenkins is 4 inches taller than Williams, and Ponder made a great back shoulder throw on the pass. That little push off (combined with the aforementioned details) gave him that extra little bit of separation that made all the difference on the play. On a play like that, the little push is what made Williams unable to get up there and knock the ball down. He was right there, turned, and got shoved. I'm sorry these facts don't fit your preconceived "Aaron Williams sucks" notion, but that's what happened on the play. Yes, Williams got beat on that play. But, run it 100 times and I think there are penalties called 30 times (with the real refs), Jenkins beats him 40 times and Williams breaks up the pass the other 30 times. Why extrapolate this play to Williams being a bad corner? He looks like a young player who is progressing, some days beter than others.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted August 19, 2012 Posted August 19, 2012 Michael Jenkins is 4 inches taller than Williams, and Ponder made a great back shoulder throw on the pass. That little push off (combined with the aforementioned details) gave him that extra little bit of separation that made all the difference on the play. On a play like that, the little push is what made Williams unable to get up there and knock the ball down. He was right there, turned, and got shoved. I'm sorry these facts don't fit your preconceived "Aaron Williams sucks" notion, but that's what happened on the play. Yes, Williams got beat on that play. But, run it 100 times and I think there are penalties called 30 times (with the real refs), Jenkins beats him 40 times and Williams breaks up the pass the other 30 times. Why extrapolate this play to Williams being a bad corner? He looks like a young player who is progressing, some days beter than others. Wow. So defensive guys. I have never said that Williams sucks. I have said that he has to play better… and he does. Also, close but no cigar is not a defense for a cornerback being beaten. Williams could have slowed and impeded Jenkins but he didn't. Ask Antoine Winfield how he would have played that ball.
Webster Guy Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 Dont worry about AW's tackling or jamming receivers, he's great at both. I think all corners ball skills are a little rusty in the summer. Brooks might creep in front of Aaron as the season goes on, but right now he's in front. Great hitter on special teams too.
caracara Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 He has tons of potential and all the tools, but it might have been better if he had stayed at Texas with Duane Akina for his junior year. He's young and probably 2 seasons away from being great. IMO he'll be great, but maybe not this year.
Billsrhody Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 If he screws up he deserves criticism.. and he did screw up on that Jenkins play, no one can deny that. He didnt have his head around and started looking for the ball too late. With that said he has done a lot of things well and was even in good position on that play. I'm sure the coaches criticized him and I'm sure he'll learn from it
Ronin Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 I posted this in another thread, but I really thought this topic deserved it's own thread..... I'm not sure why Aaron Williams seems to be catching so much criticism following last night's game. He has been at least somwhat of a liability in both preseason games. We'll see how much that means in the regular season. Last season he was OK, but not average or above average by any means. ProFootballFocus discusses him here in their preseason preview - http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/08/02/32-teams-in-32-days-buffalo-bills/ I agree with the coverage grade that they gave him, generally speaking, below average, based on what we saw last season. He only started 6 games. You may or may not subscribe to the way that they do their stats, but mathematically speaking, they do as good a job as anyone could given that stats don't always tell the full story. Funny though, stats sure seem to be telling quite the story regarding Mario though. Either way, take it fwiw, but he's got something to prove this season, and so far in preseason, the way that both teams have had no difficulty passing, the very first place to point a finger is at the Cornerbacks. Gilmore too may be good in camp vs. the likes of Roosevelt and Naaman, but in two preseason games he has looked less than fantastic too from what we can see on TV. Both are going to have to step up in a big big way if this team is really going to make the playoffs. The can generate all the pass pressure that they want to, but if the WRs are constantly able to make big plays, that's a net loser. They shouldn't have cut Florence. I have no idea why they did. He wasn't great either, but he was capable of starting and providing adequate play at CB. All they'll need this season is adequate play at CB and LB. Will they get it?
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 McKelvins woes werent pass rush related last year(and the year before). His problem was that he would be right there with the WR(due to his freakish speed)--the ball would be a toss up betw McK and the WR....and the WR came up with it time after time after time after time.--McK will be close to the WR most of the time---so with a better passrush he will still be right w the WR. Stopping the WR from catching the ball is usually next on the agenda.McK constantly fails at that. He will be fine as a nickel corner. He is must better playing the ball when he just needs to react. It's the deep ball where he has too much time to think where he gets in trouble. Williams got beat every time they threw his way. And not by Brady and welker, it was Jerome Simpson and Christian Ponder. I can understand why folks are underwhelmed. Then you see brooks out there albeit with 2s and he is everywhere. No matter how the depth chart shakes out the bills got two good young DBS this year
Ronin Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 He will be fine as a nickel corner. He is must better playing the ball when he just needs to react. It's the deep ball where he has too much time to think where he gets in trouble. Williams got beat every time they threw his way. And not by Brady and welker, it was Jerome Simpson and Christian Ponder. I can understand why folks are underwhelmed. Then you see brooks out there albeit with 2s and he is everywhere. Exactly. And he got beat by the rookie RGIII and the Skins' lackluster WRs at least once on their TD drive too. Granted, it's his second season and he obviously deserves a full season of starts, but there is definitely room for concern. There should be no questioning why he is being criticized though apart from that.
Turbosrrgood Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) I think Williams has looked like a stud every time he steps on the field. He was by far our best CB last year as a rookie, I thought he looked pretty good against the Vikes as well. No one is going to perfect and prevent every pass targeted against him, especially in the pre-season. I think the Bills have a very solid secondary now, but there will be a few "hiccups" with all those young players. Now our LB's on the other hand....Yikes. I went from thinking Moats wouldn't make the team, to thinking he is the best LB on the team. Which doesn't say much about the other guys. Sheppard looks very slow and very lost so far, McKillop has looked much better. Edited August 20, 2012 by Turbosrrgood
Maury Ballstein Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 He has been at least somwhat of a liability in both preseason games. We'll see how much that means in the regular season. Last season he was OK, but not average or above average by any means. ProFootballFocus discusses him here in their preseason preview - http://www.profootba...-buffalo-bills/ I agree with the coverage grade that they gave him, generally speaking, below average, based on what we saw last season. He only started 6 games. You may or may not subscribe to the way that they do their stats, but mathematically speaking, they do as good a job as anyone could given that stats don't always tell the full story. Funny though, stats sure seem to be telling quite the story regarding Mario though. Either way, take it fwiw, but he's got something to prove this season, and so far in preseason, the way that both teams have had no difficulty passing, the very first place to point a finger is at the Cornerbacks. Gilmore too may be good in camp vs. the likes of Roosevelt and Naaman, but in two preseason games he has looked less than fantastic too from what we can see on TV. Both are going to have to step up in a big big way if this team is really going to make the playoffs. The can generate all the pass pressure that they want to, but if the WRs are constantly able to make big plays, that's a net loser. They shouldn't have cut Florence. I have no idea why they did. He wasn't great either, but he was capable of starting and providing adequate play at CB. All they'll need this season is adequate play at CB and LB. Will they get it? Gotta disagree with you on Florence, he was toasted by WR's routinely.....no reason to keep him around.
Malazan Posted August 20, 2012 Posted August 20, 2012 (edited) Gotta disagree with you on Florence, he was toasted by WR's routinely.....no reason to keep him around. The selective memory around here is amazing. People ran by Florence almost as quickly as they do by Wayne Hunter. Edited August 20, 2012 by jeremy2020
San Jose Bills Fan Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Yeah, Drayton was a good Bill and I liked him but he was a liability in coverage last year. He has tons of potential and all the tools, but it might have been better if he had stayed at Texas with Duane Akina for his junior year. He's young and probably 2 seasons away from being great. IMO he'll be great, but maybe not this year. Great point about Aaron Williams' age. He just turned 22 in April which makes him younger than some of this year's rookie class. So that's something to take into account.
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