nucci Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 Incorrect. You don't risk losing your core guys. That is not how you operate. If Levitre is a core guy you plan on building your O-line you show the player that you see him as a team leader and core member of the team and you sign him in the offseason before he becomes a FA. There are 4 weeks to get that done. I believe he will be extended before october. You either know now or don't know now that levitre is your stalwart O-linemen nothing (barring catastrtophic injury) is likely to change that decision in the next 20 weeks. What part is incorrect? The part about Johnson signing one day before free agency started or that there is time to sign these guys? There is plenty of time to sign them. There were reports before camp started that the Bills have opened talks with Levitre.
Captain Hindsight Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 Incorrect. You don't risk losing your core guys. That is not how you operate. If Levitre is a core guy you plan on building your O-line you show the player that you see him as a team leader and core member of the team and you sign him in the offseason before he becomes a FA. There are 4 weeks to get that done. I believe he will be extended before october. You either know now or don't know now that levitre is your stalwart O-linemen nothing (barring catastrtophic injury) is likely to change that decision in the next 20 weeks. Imagine if someone like Drew Brees, Peyton manning, Matt Forte, Dwayne bowe, Ray Rice were allowed to play out their contracts!
1B4IDie Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) This isn't at all common in the nfl. It took the saints drew brees' AFTER his contract expired to re-sign him. Look at all the players that got a franchise tag last year. Teams don't re-sign player this early as often as you are making it out to be. And as great as byrd and levitre are, calling them leaders is a bit of exageration. Especially on levitre. I wouldn't call either of them leaders. Kyle Williams, George Wilson, Fitz, and freddy, THOSE are leaders. Hence why freddy got extended (plus he outperformed his contract). I'm sorry. I just don't see the "risk" of losing one of them of we don't sign them right now. Would it be that bad to sign them in late season? Hell, if all else fails, we can franchise one of them. This risk is so minimal You're using exceptions (Franchise Tag) as an example to demonstrate that teams frequently let their core players go unsigned until its time to tender the Franchise Tag. That is illogical. I think we can agree the total number of contract extensions outnumber the times that a team was forced into a corner and had to use the franchise tag. The franchise tag is a tool of last resort and comes with great risk. Do you know what the average of the Top 5 Guards make? As much as an average LT. A 1 year contract at the average of the Top5 of your position or a 20% pay increase whichever is greater is not an ideal situation for the player or the franchise. A good FO will extend a core player to a contract prior to a player reaching free agency. If you think Levitre is not a leader on the O-Line, you're welcome to that opinion. However in reality a player that has started in 48/48 possible games and was willing to fill in at Center and LT when he was called upon is going to be regarded as a leader by his fellow teammates. Fact. You can argue this fact if you like, that does not make it less true. Imagine if someone like Drew Brees, Peyton manning, Matt Forte, Dwayne bowe, Ray Rice were allowed to play out their contracts! Drew Brees - Walked from Chargers Peyton Manning - Walked from Colts Matt Forte - Did not receive a favorable contract from Bears during the year leading up to his Free Agency, The player did not want to sign. The Team ended up forced to use the franchise tag and inturn payed more money than negotating a contract prior to Forte's monster season. Dwayne Bowe - Ugly contract situation and still holding out Ray Rice - Ugly contract situation but worked out, probably beneficial for both. So 1 out 5 examples turned out ok for both player and franchise. 1 out 5 is still ongoing and 3 out 5 the player walked. Or we can call it 1 out 6, 2 out of 6, and 3 out 6 if you count Drew Brees twice. So I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but thanks for proving my point. Edited August 14, 2012 by Why So Serious?
Captain Hindsight Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 You're using exceptions (Franchise Tag) as an example to demonstrate that teams frequently let their core players go unsigned until its time to tender the Franchise Tag. That is illogical. I think we can agree the total number of contract extensions outnumber the times that a team was forced into a corner and had to use the franchise tag. The franchise tag is a tool of last resort and comes with great risk. Do you know what the average of the Top 5 Guards make? As much as an average LT. A 1 year contract at the average of the Top5 of your position or a 20% pay increase whichever is greater is not an ideal situation for the player or the franchise. A good FO will extend a core player to a contract prior to a player reaching free agency. If you think Levitre is not a leader on the O-Line, you're welcome to that opinion. However in reality a player that has started in 48/48 possible games and was willing to fill in at Center and LT when he was called upon is going to be regarded as a leader by his fellow teammates. Fact. You can argue this fact if you like, that does not make it less true. Drew Brees - Walked from Chargers Peyton Manning - Walked from Colts Matt Forte - Did not receive a favorable contract from Bears during the year leading up to his Free Agency, The player did not want to sign. The Team ended up forced to use the franchise tag and inturn payed more money than negotating a contract prior to Forte's monster season. Dwayne Bowe - Ugly contract situation and still holding out Ray Rice - Ugly contract situation but worked out, probably beneficial for both. So 1 out 5 examples turned out ok for both player and franchise. 1 out 5 is still ongoing and 3 out 5 the player walked. Or we can call it 1 out 6, 2 out of 6, and 3 out 6 if you count Drew Brees twice. So I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but thanks for proving my point. Youre right that its not ideal, but to say that bad front offices do this is silly. Its a common practice nowadays and I fully expect Buddy to extend the players he says hes going to. To often in society today we expect instant results, Buddy has said we will resign Stevie and Freddy before FA and TC respectfully. He did. Same with chandler. If he says levitre and byrd will be resigned, I believe him
1B4IDie Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Youre right that its not ideal, but to say that bad front offices do this is silly. Its a common practice nowadays and I fully expect Buddy to extend the players he says hes going to. To often in society today we expect instant results, Buddy has said we will resign Stevie and Freddy before FA and TC respectfully. He did. Same with chandler. If he says levitre and byrd will be resigned, I believe him Yes I may have been extreme in saying bad FOs. I am confident that Levitre will be resigned before October. I agree that Nix is doing what he says he will do and he is straight shooter. I just in principal disagree that its a sound strategy to wait until a player is a FA to franchise or sign him, If you believe in the long term potential of the player you have more than enough practice and game file to determine if the franchise wants to sign the player long term the year before they become a FA. If the player wants to stay with the team and the agent agrees with the numbers the deal should get done. And as dramatic as the FA hold out story on ESPN is, most teams get the extensions done before there is drama around their core players. For good reason the team wasn't completely sold on SJ13 prior to 2011, there was still talk of labor pains, I agree somewhat with the wait and see approach there. Levitre has shown us his baby, so I fully expect Buddy to pay that man before too long. Now is the time to strike a deal. Waiting till the off season likely gives Levitre more leverage. Thats my main point. Sign this guy up, when he will be in the prime of his athletic ability and experience, get 'er done. Edited August 14, 2012 by Why So Serious?
thebandit27 Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 You're using exceptions (Franchise Tag) as an example to demonstrate that teams frequently let their core players go unsigned until its time to tender the Franchise Tag. That is illogical. I think we can agree the total number of contract extensions outnumber the times that a team was forced into a corner and had to use the franchise tag. The franchise tag is a tool of last resort and comes with great risk. Do you know what the average of the Top 5 Guards make? As much as an average LT. A 1 year contract at the average of the Top5 of your position or a 20% pay increase whichever is greater is not an ideal situation for the player or the franchise. A good FO will extend a core player to a contract prior to a player reaching free agency. If you think Levitre is not a leader on the O-Line, you're welcome to that opinion. However in reality a player that has started in 48/48 possible games and was willing to fill in at Center and LT when he was called upon is going to be regarded as a leader by his fellow teammates. Fact. You can argue this fact if you like, that does not make it less true. Drew Brees - Walked from Chargers Peyton Manning - Walked from Colts Matt Forte - Did not receive a favorable contract from Bears during the year leading up to his Free Agency, The player did not want to sign. The Team ended up forced to use the franchise tag and inturn payed more money than negotating a contract prior to Forte's monster season. Dwayne Bowe - Ugly contract situation and still holding out Ray Rice - Ugly contract situation but worked out, probably beneficial for both. So 1 out 5 examples turned out ok for both player and franchise. 1 out 5 is still ongoing and 3 out 5 the player walked. Or we can call it 1 out 6, 2 out of 6, and 3 out 6 if you count Drew Brees twice. So I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but thanks for proving my point. There's a few major flaws in your analysis here, WSS. - Both Brees and Manning were coming off of MAJOR injuries, were questionable to continue palying at their high level (if at all) and both (if you assumed--correctly--that the Colts were going to draft Luck) had top-5 draft picks waiting to play QB behind them - Manning was franchised, signed to a $90M extension, sat out the season due to injury, and was then released; apples-to-oranges comparison if you ask me - Forte signed a contract and is in camp ready to play; impossible to say whether it worked out for both sides yet - Bowe's situation is still unresolved, so that's a question mark - Rice signed a top-5 level contract and is in camp, so again, impossible to say whether or not it worked out for both sides There are also plenty of other examples from this very off-season of top-end players playing out their contract that do not involve the franchise tag that haven't been mentioned: Marques Colston Marshawn Lynch Desean Jackson Reggie Wayne Arian Foster (although he was restricted) Jermichael Finley Chris Myers Nick Hardwick All returned to their 2011-12 teams with new contracts despite finishing the 2011-12 season without an extension. I'm not saying that the team shouldn't start negoatiations with Levitre and Byrd, I just think it's not a big deal if they wait.
John from Riverside Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 - I still think there is a chance Kelsay gets cut......Kyle Moore has been really showing well both in camp and gametime....and Kelsay makes a LOT of money - I think we keep Spencer Johnson and Heard.....would not shock me to see Edwards, Troupe, Carrington go Regarding Kelsay....I dont hate him as a player......its just that once you have been a starter and you get moved into a rotational thing (and keep in mind we have Merriman on that side) that if a younger, improving, cheaper player can play that same rotational role? You have to look at it. Cutting those players should give us enough to sign at least Levitre and Byrd......and Urbik can actually be replaced easier (although I would rather sign him and keep the line together)
Malazan Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 Byrd and Levitre will both be in the top 5 salaries for their positions. Also we don't want to lose young talent like Carrington and Heard ( I know their talent level is debatable) Holy lord, no. You think Byrd is a top 5 safety? I love the guy, but wow.
freester Posted August 14, 2012 Author Posted August 14, 2012 No way Kelsay gets cut. He is better in run support than Anderson. I think Carrington stays as well.
1B4IDie Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) There's a few major flaws in your analysis here, WSS. - Both Brees and Manning were coming off of MAJOR injuries, were questionable to continue palying at their high level (if at all) and both (if you assumed--correctly--that the Colts were going to draft Luck) had top-5 draft picks waiting to play QB behind them Not a flaw, completely Irrelevant to the result. - Manning was franchised, signed to a $90M extension, sat out the season due to injury, and was then released; apples-to-oranges comparison if you ask me If you want to shine a spotlight on Manning, lets talk about the fact that Manning negotiated a lower contract than the Colts offered so that they can sign other players. I didn't bring Manning up Captain did, the whole example should be thrown out imo as Manning is a complete outlier. - Forte signed a contract and is in camp ready to play; impossible to say whether it worked out for both sides yet I think it is a very fair conclusion that the Bears payed a boatload more money for Forte after 2011 than would have before 2011. What happens after the contract signed is irrelevant to this conversation. Where is the flaw? - Bowe's situation is still unresolved, so that's a question mark I said it was still ongoing so where is the flaw? - Rice signed a top-5 level contract and is in camp, so again, impossible to say whether or not it worked out for both sides Rice has proven to be a Top Tier Rushing and Receiving threat and a tool that the Ravens whole offense is built around. What happens after the contract is irrelevant to the fact that Ravens need him on their team and motivated to have a chance. He should be a Top 5 RB based on stats and past performance and he is. i don't think you need time to determine if it worked out for both sides in regards to this conversation. Where is the flaw? There are also plenty of other examples from this very off-season of top-end players playing out their contract that do not involve the franchise tag that haven't been mentioned: Marques Colston Marshawn Lynch Desean Jackson Reggie Wayne Arian Foster (although he was restricted) Jermichael Finley Chris Myers Nick Hardwick All returned to their 2011-12 teams with new contracts despite finishing the 2011-12 season without an extension. I'm not saying that the team shouldn't start negoatiations with Levitre and Byrd, I just think it's not a big deal if they wait. Again can we agree that there are more contract extensions than examples of teams resigning a player once they have become a FA? If you disagree with that lets discuss. Not to mention the overall point is Levitre has proven his durability and his importance to the team. Why wouldn't you sign him prior to him becoming a free agent. "Chill. There is time . . ." Isn't a real answer. There are very few higher priorities for Buddy after the final cuts than signing Levitre imo, and I'd like to understand the case against signing Levitre before the season starts. Edited August 14, 2012 by Why So Serious?
Captain Hindsight Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 You're using exceptions (Franchise Tag) as an example to demonstrate that teams frequently let their core players go unsigned until its time to tender the Franchise Tag. That is illogical. I think we can agree the total number of contract extensions outnumber the times that a team was forced into a corner and had to use the franchise tag. The franchise tag is a tool of last resort and comes with great risk. Do you know what the average of the Top 5 Guards make? As much as an average LT. A 1 year contract at the average of the Top5 of your position or a 20% pay increase whichever is greater is not an ideal situation for the player or the franchise. A good FO will extend a core player to a contract prior to a player reaching free agency. If you think Levitre is not a leader on the O-Line, you're welcome to that opinion. However in reality a player that has started in 48/48 possible games and was willing to fill in at Center and LT when he was called upon is going to be regarded as a leader by his fellow teammates. Fact. You can argue this fact if you like, that does not make it less true. Drew Brees - Walked from Chargers Peyton Manning - Walked from Colts Matt Forte - Did not receive a favorable contract from Bears during the year leading up to his Free Agency, The player did not want to sign. The Team ended up forced to use the franchise tag and inturn payed more money than negotating a contract prior to Forte's monster season. Dwayne Bowe - Ugly contract situation and still holding out Ray Rice - Ugly contract situation but worked out, probably beneficial for both. So 1 out 5 examples turned out ok for both player and franchise. 1 out 5 is still ongoing and 3 out 5 the player walked. Or we can call it 1 out 6, 2 out of 6, and 3 out 6 if you count Drew Brees twice. So I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but thanks for proving my point. Manning was released and Brees had some guy named Phillip Rivers behind him and just had a serious shoulder injury, they let him walk after he gave 2 great seasons. Ray Rice was hardly ugly since he signed before camp. Ill give you Bowe, but do you expect levitre or byrd to be a dumbass like Bowe is?
Billsrhody Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 There are very few higher priorities for Buddy after the final cuts than signing Levitre imo, and I'd like to understand the case against signing Levitre before the season starts. Why don't we let Buddy worry about talent evaluation now and worry about extending our current players once the season starts?
K-9 Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 Drew Brees - Walked from Chargers Peyton Manning - Walked from Colts Revisionist at best. GO BILLS!!!
mattsox Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 These two studs will be resigned, no wquestion. Doesnt the salary cap take a nice % jump next year in 2013 when the renewed TV contracts go in to affect? I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered reading this some where, maybe even here on twobillsdrive. I sure hope so. All I can say is Get er done!!! We don't need more holes on this team!
thebandit27 Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 Not a flaw, completely Irrelevant to the result. If you want to shine a spotlight on Manning, lets talk about the fact that Manning negotiated a lower contract than the Colts offered so that they can sign other players. I didn't bring Manning up Captain did, the whole example should be thrown out imo as Manning is a complete outlier. I think it is a very fair conclusion that the Bears payed a boatload more money for Forte after 2011 than would have before 2011. What happens after the contract signed is irrelevant to this conversation. Where is the flaw? I said it was still ongoing so where is the flaw? Rice has proven to be a Top Tier Rushing and Receiving threat and a tool that the Ravens whole offense is built around. What happens after the contract is irrelevant to the fact that Ravens need him on their team and motivated to have a chance. He should be a Top 5 RB based on stats and past performance and he is. i don't think you need time to determine if it worked out for both sides in regards to this conversation. Where is the flaw? The flaw with Manning and Brees is that their respective teams didn't wait and then lose them, as you seem to be implying the case could be with Levitre. Brees sustained a serious throwing-arm injury, and that fact, combined with the presence of Rivers, made the Chargers decline to offer him a new contract. He didn't just bolt for the money once he had freedom, which I believe is your worry with Levitre if he gets close to the open market. Same goes for Manning. He played out his deal, signed a new one, then was released when injury hit. They didn't lose out on him. There's no way to know on Forte...I think you're assuming that the team could have signed him for less when we don't really know what he was looking for money-wise. My statement regarding the flaws in your argument was made to reflect that you're insinuating that the expiration of those players contracts lead to trouble. In the case of Brees & Manning, it's completely false, as their troubled situations were due to injury, not the expiration of their contracts. With regard to Rice & Forte, they both got top 5 deals as they wanted, and the team gets to keep them, so I don't think it's prudent to say it didn't work out for either side. Again can we agree that there are more contract extensions than examples of teams resigning a player once they have become a FA? If you disagree with that lets discuss. Not to mention the overall point is Levitre has proven his durability and his importance to the team. Why wouldn't you sign him prior to him becoming a free agent. "Chill. There is time . . ." Isn't a real answer. There are very few higher priorities for Buddy after the final cuts than signing Levitre imo, and I'd like to understand the case against signing Levitre before the season starts. Not sure as I haven't really looked at the numbers over the past few years, but I'd assume that the re-signing rate is higher for certain positions than others. As for Levitre, as I said, it's not as though I think they shouldn't work on his contract; I'm just not concerned if they don't. As for what I'd want Nix doing, I'm far more interested in him scouting the rest of the league right now, as nearly every year there's a handful of players that don't make the last round of cuts that end up having an impact for another team (Ryan Grant, LaGarrette Blount, etc.). IMO that's a higher priority.
1B4IDie Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) There's no way to know on Forte...I think you're assuming that the team could have signed him for less when we don't really know what he was looking for money-wise. This statement right hear just shows you're being argumentative for argumentative sake. If you're not willing to give any ground and say, It is very likely that Matt Forte prior to 2011 would have signed a deal less than what he signed after 2011 yet more than what the Bears offered him prior to 2011, then you can play Devil's advocate withs someone else. The Argument is this: Andy Levitre has more bargaining leverage the closer he gets to Free Agency. Andy Levitre is a proven quantity and it is better for the future of the Buffalo Bills to have him on the roster for the forceable future. Therefore it is in the best interest of the Buffalo Bills to sign Andy Levitre sooner than later. The Counter Argument is: Chill, Dude. There is tons of times. People get resigned all the time once they're Free Agents, plus you can use the Franchise Tag, what's the big deal? Unless I'm missing something. So I will continue to take the position that Buddy Nix needs to sign Levitre sooner than later. More importantly I believe Buddy Nix knows this and will get this done before October. Edited August 14, 2012 by Why So Serious?
wnyBacker Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 That cut list is rediculous on many levels seeing as how d lineman are always getting injured
stony Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 I'm glad this thread has proven that we can agree on one thing. Andy Levitre is our best OL right now. Sign him long term ASAP before his pro bowls hike up his price. I believe Levitre will be able to be signed to a team-friendly deal unlike some of the other huge Guard deals that have been signed in recent years.
thebandit27 Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 This statement right hear just shows you're being argumentative for argumentative sake. If you're not willing to give any ground and say, It is very likely that Matt Forte prior to 2011 would have signed a deal less than what he signed after 2011 yet more than what the Bears offered him prior to 2011, then you can play Devil's advocate withs someone else. The Argument is this: Andy Levitre has more bargaining leverage the closer he gets to Free Agency. Andy Levitre is a proven quantity and it is better for the future of the Buffalo Bills to have him on the roster for the forceable future. Therefore it is in the best interest of the Buffalo Bills to sign Andy Levitre sooner than later. The Counter Argument is: Chill, Dude. There is tons of times. People get resigned all the time once they're Free Agents, plus you can use the Franchise Tag, what's the big deal? Unless I'm missing something. So I will continue to take the position that Buddy Nix needs to sign Levitre sooner than later. More importantly I believe Buddy Nix knows this and will get this done before October. I actually wasn't aware I was being argumentative at all. I also didn't realize that the absence of an assumption regarding the level of contract that Matt Forte would've signed constitutes failure to give ground...as I said, I don't know what Forte's number was, nor do I know what Chicago would've been willing to offer. That's why I said we can't really know. All I do know is that his contract expired and he was re-signed to a deal that both he and the team could live with...that was my only point. I really have no problem with wanting the team to address Levitre's contract, as I've said multiple times. I merely suggested that it doesn't need to be Nix's #1 priority right now. You disagree, that's cool.
Koufax Posted August 14, 2012 Posted August 14, 2012 Its time to resign Byrd, Levitre and Urbik You do know that there are two unrelated errors in the title alone right? They are also two of the most common ones. Posts and replies can have a lower threshold, but it would be nice to have reasonable use of the English language in the actual topic. As for the content of the discussion, I think there is no rush on any of the three, but I think all three should remain contributing members of the Buffalo Bills for years to come if that is possible.
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