Bills Fitzpatrick has earned trust, respect of teammates

[The Cincinnati Kid]

You are right. If Trent played a little bit better, then Jouron would still be our coach and we'd be riding 7-9 to Doomsday. I like the fact that we have a Coach who understands that the NFL is a passing league, with rules designed to make passing more favorable than running. I like that we have a QB who is willing to throw it into a tight window when we are down big. I mean its better than running out of bounds on 4th and medium, right? Wouldn't you rather take the chance? I mean, I would. Fitz is a guy who is capable of improving because he is smart enough to know he has to do it. So, he knows he has to improve, so he puts in the time, the effort and the work to improve and as a result, he is improving. Its been written and stated several time since the start of OTAs. Haters are gonna hate, but I think we are doing the right things with Fitz and Chan. If you want Vince Young as the starting QB of the Buffalo Bills, maybe you ask teams like Seattle, Cleveland, Jacksonville, Kansas City, Arizona, and San Francisco why they didn't being him for a look-see.

[Gugny]

Things Vince Young has done on the field that ought to give you pause:

-Throw 4 TD and 9 INTs last year out of only 114 passes in 3 games. In case we need to do the math, that's an average of 3 INTs a game and 7.8% INT percentage. Now I'm not too stressed out by Fitz's INTs last year. Eli Manning and Brees led the league the last 2 years and they got it together. Fitz isn't Eli Manning or Brees, the point is a bad year for INTs doesn't mark a guy for life. But if you're worried about Fitz' 23 (4%) INTs, shouldn't a number that projects out to 48 INTS (using INTs/game) or 44 INTs (using INT percentage and assuming Young throws as many passes as Fitz did last year) be a little concerning with you?

-lifetime completion percentage of <58%. Last year was in line: 57.9%. I'm not saying it's you, but there are people here who stress about Fitz's 62% completion and 59% lifetime, so shouldn't throwing fewer completions than Fitzpatrick be a concern with regard to something Vince Young has done on the field?

-Number of passes per game. In 61 games, Young has thrown an average of 21 passes per game (1304 attempts in 61 games). In a pass-centric league, isn't that something he's done (or not done) on the field that should be of concern? (A typical game where the offense is going well has about 60 offensive plays. A run-centric attack would be about 45% pass, 27-28 plays per game. For comparison, Fitz averages 30 passes per game over his career.)

-Chan asserts that neither Young nor Thigpen has distinguished himself as the #2. Presumably he bases this upon what he's seen on the football field at OTAs and training camp. People who have watched have said Young > Thigpen but neither looks good. Perhaps Chan's viewpoint and what's seen at camp is something done on a football field that should concern you?

 

I'm not concerned about Vince's "deep issues" and whether or not they exist or need resolution. That's his bidness, and as long as he comports himself as a model NFL citizen (which he's done) my view is everyone deserves a chance to grow up.

 

I also hope that he "grows up" as a football player and becomes a very quality player for us.

 

I just don't understand the lack of concern about what Young's done on a football field 'cuz it may be exciting at times but it ain't all pretty and a lot of the Titans winning looks like strong D and CJ2K to me. I forgot who said it, SJBF maybe or NoSaint? Someone pointed out to me that the aura of being a top draft choice lingers, and earns much benefit of the doubt/favorable viewpoint which is not granted to lower-round guys. McCoy on his way out of Cleveland where Bradford, with similar stats, gets a pass and so forth.

Couldn't agree more. Everyone always thinks the Young-doubters think he's a basket case and a locker room cancer and that his off-field problems are the biggest concern. Personally, I don't give a crap about his off-field problems. Everyone has them. His statistical history is horrendous. This guy has had exactly one half of one season that was good. Everything else has been terrible. He is inaccurate. He is inconsistent. He cannot handle pressure. And I'm sorry, but I just don't think the guy has the brainpower to be a successful QB in the NFL. And his statistics (a.k.a. "factual data") paint a clear picture that says one thing ... HE IS NOT A GOOD QB.

[CodeMonkey]

Great article I love TSN because they cover the bills more then ESPN

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/story/?id=402002

 

Eric Wood is quoted saying they wouldn't trade him for anyone...

Or as coach Chan Gailey says: "He can win championships."

 

From the ability to take a big hit and play hurt, as Fitzpatrick did last season, or accepting pressure and blame...More proof he played injured last year in case there is any more doubters....

 

 

I know theres plenty of Fitz doubters but normally this team doesn't speak this highly of a player unless they truly think they are capable. I do believe he can do the job after watching him in Cincy I thought he had all the ability to lead a team to victory and proves he isn't afraid to take the blame or bear the weight of a loss on his shoulders.

I always get a kick out of articles like this and people reading so much into them.

Almost certainly Fitz is the man this season. I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise.

So do you really expect Wood, Gailey, or anyone else on the team to say "Fitz sucks balls, but unfortunately we have to make due with him for the time being"?

Of course you hear "he can win championships" and "wouldn't trade him for anyone". WTF else would you expect them to say to the press?

Edited August 1, 2012 by CodeMonkey

[thewildrabbit]

I like fitz a lot but is playing hurt really an attribute if your not doing it well?

I think when you look closely at the circumstances of last years season you have to acknowledge that Fitz is not only a tough as nails gamer, but someone you would want to go to war with. We all saw what happened last year. The starting center goes on IR, the starting RB goes on IR. The HC kept calling shotgun pass plays all game long with a bad O line, one decent WR, and almost always playing from behind in games.

 

Cracked ribs can be a particularly painful injury that makes it difficult to even breath, much less throw a football around all game long week after week. We never saw Fitz give up in any game, in any situation. Most fans don't realize it but the majority of NFL players play with injuries thru out the season, some serious and some not so serious.

 

Fitz should have been benched and allowed to recover from that injury. But then so should Stevie Johnson with his groin injury.

 

If anyone should take the blame for the teams lack of wins and bad play its the head coach for allowing his players to play with serious injuries, not trusting enough in his back up players.

[paintmyhouse]

They might respect him but I bet they would not be sad to see him replaced.

[PromoTheRobot]

They might respect him but I bet they would not be sad to see him replaced.

I bet you would be wrong.

 

PTR

[K-9]

They might respect him but I bet they would not be sad to see him replaced.

 

Depends on who's replacing him. Manning, Brady, Brees, or Newton? Sure.

 

Vince Young? Not so much.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[NoSaint]

I bet you would be wrong.

 

PTR

 

In the assumption that it's because option B is better than him - I'd bet your wrong.

 

Though they may like him, and even miss him as a friend/teammate - they are all there to win.

[#34fan]

Um, your original statement was that VY has never done anything on the field that gives you pause.

 

I think we all accept that VY has had some very good games and made some memorable plays. The key to being a quality QB in the NFL isn't one game (Fitz has had his "one games" after all) but consistency, Sunday after Sunday

 

Would you care to respond as to why the 4 points I raised don't give you pause about VY, or why they lead you to believe Fitz ought to be looking over his shoulder and we all ought to be looking over his shoulder at VY too?

 

Um, I thought I already did.

 

I accept the numbers you provided as they are. I simply offered a little historical perspective to your statistical analysis.

 

I've been very up front about my belief that more competition could be benficial for Fitzpatick's game. there's no doubt in my mind that our brand of offense would benefit tremendously from more competitive QB play.

 

I thought you did a good Job in avoiding MY question altogether. I was trying to ascertain whether or not you would support this franchise putting it's best product on the field. Especially if that product turns out to be V. Young.

 

Assuming #10 isn't cut, It's a possibility we could all be confronting in the near future. -Might be a good idea to know where you stand in advance.

Edited August 2, 2012 by #34fan

[PromoTheRobot]

Um, I thought I already did.

 

I accept the numbers you provided as they are. I simply offered a little historical perspective to your statistical analysis.

 

I've been very up front about my belief that more competition could be benficial for Fitzpatick's game. there's no doubt in my mind that our brand of offense would benefit tremendously from more competitive QB play.

 

I thought you did a good Job in avoiding MY question altogether. I was trying to ascertain whether or not you would support this franchise putting it's best product on the field. Especially if that product turns out to be V. Young.

 

Assuming #10 isn't cut, It's a possibility we could all be confronting in the near future. -Might be a good idea to know where you stand in advance.

I support playing the best team possible but I hate to break it to you: that does not include Vince Young. You can wish all you want but every report says he is struggling. Now did you mean the best QB or the biggest hype out of college?

 

PTR

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Um, I thought I already did.

 

I accept the numbers you provided as they are. I simply offered a little historical perspective to your statistical analysis.

 

The question wasn't whether you "accept the numbers provided", it was whether any of those numbers give you pause about the wisdom of looking to VY as a plausibly "better product" than Fitz.

If not, why not? Explain.

 

I didn't see a response to that point from you. You said this:

>>Vince's first start after a year of not playing at all was a win vs. NYG.

>>He was a BACKUP on a NEW team, coming off a rough emotional experience and thrust into game against a tough divisional rival.

>>Vince delivered.

>>With Vince at the helm, Philly converted SIX third downs on ONE drive. Two of those, VY rushed for HIMSELF. -Think about that. How cool would it be to have a guy who can wear down defenses by extending drives like that?

 

Your "historical perspective" appears to consist of pointing out that VY won one game as a backup being "thrust into a game". Whoo hoo, good for him, what's your point? That he can win a game? No one disputes that.

 

So I'll repeat. Do any of those numbers give you pause about VY? If not, why not? Explain.

 

I've been very up front about my belief that more competition could be benficial for Fitzpatick's game. there's no doubt in my mind that our brand of offense would benefit tremendously from more competitive QB play.

I thought you did a good Job in avoiding MY question altogether. I was trying to ascertain whether or not you would support this franchise putting it's best product on the field. Especially if that product turns out to be V. Young.

Assuming #10 isn't cut, It's a possibility we could all be confronting in the near future. -Might be a good idea to know where you stand in advance.

 

It's a rather meaningless question as asked - what's referred to, I believe, as a leading question.

 

Of course I support the team putting its best product on the field. That's why I'm a Bills fan, not a Fitz fan or a VY fan.

 

Your implication is that there's a strong possibility VY is that best product. "It's a possibility we could all be confronting in the near future"

 

That begs the question "how do you tell who's the best?"

 

You don't tell by W-L record - that's a team stat. You don't tell for sure by how guys look in shorts or preseason.

 

So how do you tell?

 

What they've accomplished statistically over a career? Worth considering

What they accomplished last year when given a chance to start? Worth considering.

How they looked in one game? Mmmmm not so much, good or bad.

 

I'm not saying it's inconceivable that VY could be given a chance to start over a healthy Fitz, I'm just saying I don't see any evidence so far to support any contention that he's the "best product" the Bills have at QB.

The only way that happens is if Fitz were to start this season with a total reprise of the 3 games after the Washington hit, lasting for 6 games (avert). Then maybe.

 

I also don't understand why there's nothing that gives you pause about Young's play on the field.

 

By the way, just to be fair - in 2010 Young rushed for 13.4 ypg, average 5.0 ypa. In 2010 Fitz rushed for 20.7 ypg, average 6.7 ypa. So while I agree it's cool to have the ability for the QB to extend drives by using his feet, *we already have that ability*.

Fitz is not as fast or as dominant a runner as Young can be, but (when his ribs are intact) he moves the chains when he needs to. Opponents forget Fitz has wheels to their cost.

[PromoTheRobot]

http://wgr550.com/Gailey-wants-more-out-of-2nd-team-O--Sheppard-sits/13876028

 

Oh look! Another article saying VY ain't gettng it done.

 

PTR

[NoSaint]

http://wgr550.com/Gailey-wants-more-out-of-2nd-team-O--Sheppard-sits/13876028

 

Oh look! Another article saying VY ain't gettng it done.

 

PTR

 

You'd think a bills fan would be seemingly less happy about this. Ultimately I hope VY looks great and pushes the heck out of fitz.

[biglukes]

They might respect him but I bet they would not be sad to see him replaced.

That's just a plain stupid thing to say. The guys in that room love Fitz. We all know how much you hate him, but don't even bother trying to project your issues on the guys on the team.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Rhetorical Question… not sure why it comes to mind.

 

Let's say you're standing at the bar and you strike up a conversation with the guy next to you… after all you're in a bar and the point is to socialize and have a good time.

 

However in pretty short order you realize the person you're talking to is really, really stupid and besides that, you disagree with most of his opinions.

 

Would you:

 

1) start arguing with him over your differences of opinion, trying to convince him to change his mind or:

 

2) ignore him and start talking to someone else?

[PromoTheRobot]

You'd think a bills fan would be seemingly less happy about this. Ultimately I hope VY looks great and pushes the heck out of fitz.

I'm not pleased VY is not getting it done, but certain people keep flogging the dead mule that VY should be starting when every report says not only is he struggling but Fitz looks tremendous.

 

PTR

[#34fan]

The question wasn't whether you "accept the numbers provided", it was whether any of those numbers give you pause about the wisdom of looking to VY as a plausibly "better product" than Fitz.

If not, why not? Explain.

 

I didn't see a response to that point from you. You said this:

>>Vince's first start after a year of not playing at all was a win vs. NYG.

>>He was a BACKUP on a NEW team, coming off a rough emotional experience and thrust into game against a tough divisional rival.

>>Vince delivered.

>>With Vince at the helm, Philly converted SIX third downs on ONE drive. Two of those, VY rushed for HIMSELF. -Think about that. How cool would it be to have a guy who can wear down defenses by extending drives like that?

 

Your "historical perspective" appears to consist of pointing out that VY won one game as a backup being "thrust into a game". Whoo hoo, good for him, what's your point? That he can win a game? No one disputes that.

 

So I'll repeat. Do any of those numbers give you pause about VY? If not, why not? Explain.

 

No Hopeful, they don't.

 

But let's go back.

 

You were the one who started your statistical analysis by dredging up Young's three game stint as starter last year. I simply pointed out that after a year of not playing, Vince WON one of those games against a tough divisional rival. I also drew attention to the fashion in which he won that game. Namely his ability to extend key drives with his feet.

 

Which brings me to why those stats you pointed out DO NOT give me pause.

 

A two-time pro bowler, Vince Young has produced 13 game winning drives since entering the league in 2006. Five of those coming in his rookie year. In those thirteen games Young averaged a 60.32 completion percentage, and a respectable 37ypg rushing.

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick has been in the league a year longer, and been made starter of not one, but THREE different NFL franchises. In that time, he has produced exactly 6 (Six) game-winning drives, and ZERO pro bowl berths.

 

So when I read things like: "Eric Wood is quoted saying they wouldn't trade him for anyone... Or as coach Chan Gailey says: "He can win championships."

I have no choice but to ask what all this support is based on?

 

Has Fitz ever won any Championships? -Vince has. Granted it was in college. Still, If memory serves, It was a game-winning drive against a vaunted USC team Ranked number one in the BCS! -In the biggest game of his life, Vince trotted in for a TD with 19 seconds left on the clock. Bottom line? Vince young's overall body of work yields more reasons for hope than Fitzpatrick's. -Which brings me to my second point. You said:

 

That begs the question "how do you tell who's the best?"

 

You don't tell by W-L record - that's a team stat. You don't tell for sure by how guys look in shorts or preseason.

 

So how do you tell?

 

What they've accomplished statistically over a career? Worth considering

What they accomplished last year when given a chance to start? Worth considering.

How they looked in one game? Mmmmm not so much, good or bad.

 

You're making this WAY harder than it actually is. -Here's a hint. Whoever performs best under the hot lights wins out. Vince Young has demonstrated his big game potential in the past. However, as you point out, VY has also been wildly inconsistent througout his career. If Fitz is indeed the better option, he should have NO PROBLEM dispatching a guy who got canned from his last job, and rocked a single-digit score on his wonderlic. Moving right along, You also said:

 

I'm not saying it's inconceivable that VY could be given a chance to start over a healthy Fitz, I'm just saying I don't see any evidence so far to support any contention that he's the "best product" the Bills have at QB.

The only way that happens is if Fitz were to start this season with a total reprise of the 3 games after the Washington hit, lasting for 6 games (avert). Then maybe.

 

I've NEVER ONCE suggested that that Vince was the undisputed best product the Bills have at QB. I've simply mentioned a few reasons not to completely count him out. Not yet anyway.

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick has 59.5 million reasons to win this job. Why not let the guy go out and earn his money?

Edited August 2, 2012 by #34fan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

No Hopeful, they don't.

 

Thank you for the clear answer to my question.

 

My point is, I think they should. That they don't, demonstrates questionable football acumen.

 

And let's get this straight - Fitz doesn't have to "dispatch" VY. Fitz is the starter. It's his job to lose. Very poor (but revealing) choice of words.

 

A two-time pro bowler, Vince Young has produced 13 game winning drives since entering the league in 2006. Five of those coming in his rookie year. In those thirteen games Young averaged a 60.32 completion percentage, and a respectable 37ypg rushing.

 

Ryan Fitzpatrick has been in the league a year longer, and been made starter of not one, but THREE different NFL franchises. In that time, he has produced exactly 6 (Six) game-winning drives, and ZERO pro bowl berths.

 

As, frankly, does this. There is a big difference between "being made starter" and "starting a game as the backup QB when the starter gets hurt". The latter is what Fitz did with the Rams and Cincy. The Bills are Fitz' first gig as starter. This is an overwhelmingly common usage of the word "starter" and constitutes "Football 101" level understanding.

 

Probowls are currently a popularity contest. Winning teams tend to have more players selected. Losing teams tend to have fewer players selected. And winning or losing are team stats. This is also "Football 101" level understanding.

 

No one (but perhaps you?) touts "game winning drives" as a realistic overall measure of QB play for the simple fact that if the QB plays well from the start of the game and the D is good enough to get the stop, there is no need for them. It's simply silly to be concerned about "game winning drives" but not completion percentage or number of yards.

 

You continue to advance "cherry picked" positives whilst now explicitly stating you have no concern over indicators that are red flags for consistency. You even bring up college championships!!!! which have a long history of not necessarily translating to the NFL. You can't even acknowledge the point that the "hot lights" aren't a reasonable measure of who's best, because equal chances to perform under the "hot lights" are not afforded. Someone is picked as the starter, and everyone else gets their chance only if "bad stuff" goes down and that "bad stuff" involves the QB.

 

I've NEVER ONCE suggested that that Vince was the undisputed best product the Bills have at QB. I've simply mentioned a few reasons not to completely count him out. Not yet anyway.

 

The capital letters suggest that you're emphatically responding to something I imputed to you. That simply isn't so. To claim you're "simply mentioning a few reasons not to completely count him out" in my opinion completely misrepresents the tenor of your posts. You're strongly implying that VY is providing serious competition for Fitz ("my belief that more competition could be benficial for Fitzpatick's game") and that fans should consider whether he might be the best product and they would support him as starter (asking "whether or not you would support this franchise putting it's best product on the field. Especially if that product turns out to be V. Young....It's a possibility we could all be confronting in the near future. -Might be a good idea to know where you stand in advance").

 

I'll leave the accurate characterization of this wording for anyone else still reading, but "simply mentioned a few reasons not to completely count VY out" doesn't seem descriptive.

 

I think I'm outta here. You get the last shot. I'm not trying to dis on VY here. His talent is undisputed and I hope he masters our offense and is there to help the team if Fitz gets hurt. But I argue when the discussion is good and thought provoking and I'm enjoying it, and quite frankly, both the level of football savvy you're displaying in your choice of arguments, and the "frameshifting" of your position, are not what I enjoy. Laters!

Edited August 2, 2012 by Hopeful

[ddaryl]

There's an awful lot of trust to being given to a QB who threw more INT's than anyone else in the league last year. THE LEAGUE. -But whatever.

 

 

 

 

Ok but a couple of years back Eli Manning led the league in INT's.... Just saying.

 

 

Fitz will improve this year for 2 reasons.

 

a.) The team around him has improved, and the youth on the O has gained a lot of experience

 

b.) Fitz is workings hard to improve his own short comings.

 

 

I can easily see Fitz throwing 5 more TD's and 5 less INT's this year... I expect even better then that

Edited August 2, 2012 by ddaryl

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Rhetorical Question… not sure why it comes to mind.

 

Let's say you're standing at the bar and you strike up a conversation with the guy next to you… after all you're in a bar and the point is to socialize and have a good time.

 

However in pretty short order you realize the person you're talking to is really, really stupid and besides that, you disagree with most of his opinions.

 

Would you:

 

1) start arguing with him over your differences of opinion, trying to convince him to change his mind or:

 

2) ignore him and start talking to someone else?

 

Aha! SJBF Rule #2!

 

You rascal, you know good and well why it comes to mind.

 

Yep, you're right, arguing is enjoyable when the person you're arguing with has good points in defense of opinions you disagree with, and can acknowledge valid points you make and offer a reasoned rebuttal.

 

When they don't and they can't, it gets old real fast.

 

Laters!

 

Ok but a couple of years back Eli Manning led the league in INT's.... Just saying.

I can easily see Fitz throwing 5 more TD's and 5 less INT's this year... I expect even better then that

 

Yep, in 2010 and Drew Brees was right behind him. In 2009 it was Jay Cutler.

 

INTs per se don't seem to be a reason to lose trust in a QB. They beg the question "why all the INTs, and is it something that can be fixed?"