DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 You need to actually look at the reality of the situation. This is what the contract was: 4 years, $28.200 million total with $11 million signing bonus. 2011 - $6.230 million base salary + $2.750 million prorated signing bonus. $8.980 million cap hit last year. 2012 - $3.500 million base salary + $2.750 million prorated signing bonus. $6.250 million cap hit this year. 2013 - $3.725 million base salary + $2.750 million prorated signing bonus. $6.475 million cap hit next year. 2014 - $3.745 million base salary + $2.750 million prorated signing bonus. $6.495 million cap hit in 2014. Do yourself a favor and do some math. $28.2/4 years = $7.05 million per year. Not only is it over $5 million, it's over $5 million EVERY year. Definitely baffling. NFL contracts are MUCH more complicated than just dividing the biggest number by the number of years. Please find me one article or link that shows his actual numbers being that high. Im willing to believe you, but need some proof first as everything Ive seen shows my numbers.
Mark Vader Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I would have asked Nix at this point: "Why did you draft these guys from low-level schools to begin with. Haven't they really performed pretty much where expected, coming from where they did?" Anyhow, I hope both contribute this year--doing so would give us great depth. I think they both have shown flashes of potential, but time to produce. And I would respond to you by saying: "Are you implying that we should only draft players from big name schools, because in your opinion they are the only players who can make it in the NFL?"
bmur66 Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Regarding Kelsay: There is a saying in management. You get what you reward. Obviously Kelsay has the work ethic and attitude that they want. That is why he got the contract he got. Why can't you haters get off it. He played well last year when he lined up as an end. And really, who are you to say what someone should be paid?
rochesterbull Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 based on actual real games not PRE SEASON Thigpen has played well over his career. If we are going to base things on preseason a lot of players look terrible playing with guys who are NFL players I don't understand why everyone thinks Thigpen has played so well over this career. GS: 12 Team's Record: 1-11 Passing Yards: 2531 (210.9/game) Comp. %: 56.1 TD: 18 (1.5/game) Int: 12 (1.1/game) Sacks: 32 (2.7/game) Not very impressive and even less so since the bulk of his starts were 4 years ago.
Luxy312 Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 NFL contracts are MUCH more complicated than just dividing the biggest number by the number of years. Please find me one article or link that shows his actual numbers being that high. Im willing to believe you, but need some proof first as everything Ive seen shows my numbers. Not a big deal. You can find the contract details on Rotoworld. I did get something wrong with my numbers though. I thought the contract extension just covered 2011-2014 for the $28.2 million. It was actually a 4-year extension, but represented a 5-year deal. What that would mean: 2010-2011 - $10.630 million for the two years in cap hit (don't know the breakout between the 2 except the $2.2 million per year prorated bonus). 2012 - $5.700 million 2013 - $5.925 million 2014 - $5.945 million Not quite as pricy as I thought, but still too much for my taste for a backup DE.
boyst Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I don't understand why everyone thinks Thigpen has played so well over this career. GS: 12 Team's Record: 1-11 Passing Yards: 2531 (210.9/game) Comp. %: 56.1 TD: 18 (1.5/game) Int: 12 (1.1/game) Sacks: 32 (2.7/game) Not very impressive and even less so since the bulk of his starts were 4 years ago. The wins associated with the QB don't always give the best info, nor do all the other stats. Thigpen's strength heading in to last season was his familiarity with the Gailey offense and his ability to think and act quickly, albeit not for the better some times. Thigpen going in to Preseason (I think he and VY will make it that far) will have a chance to show that he has progressed.
Luxy312 Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Regarding Kelsay: There is a saying in management. You get what you reward. Obviously Kelsay has the work ethic and attitude that they want. That is why he got the contract he got. Why can't you haters get off it. He played well last year when he lined up as an end. And really, who are you to say what someone should be paid? Just the fans, who pay for the tickets to see the games and want to see the best product on the field for their dollar as possible.
Mr. WEO Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I will never apologize to you or anyone else for being a "homer" for my favorite football team. I think the content of my posts speaks for itself. Please put me on ignore so I don't continue to eat away at your sensibility. And yes, you are miserable. You don't have to apologize for being a homer--it balances out the "pessimists" like me I guess. That's why this is such a great place, I think. Nothing in my initial response was uncivil. You need to grow a thicker skin and defend your positions better, that's all I'm saying. And I would never put someone on ignore--that's crazy. MAkes no sense. Yet no one in this thread gets your point, other than trying to be a prick. So what does that say? Are you saying you dont like Nix as a GM? That he is wrong to be calling out Troup and Carrington? What IS your point? It's not like Buddy does the entire draft process by himself. And anyone with half a brain can see the changes in personnel since Modrak and Co. were let go. So what is your point? What's done is done. There will always be some mistakes. It's an imperfect world. And even more imperfect when you have a moron staff your first year. He's trying to motivate some guys the day before camp starts. It's good to see him be candid and open in the media like that, instead of just getting the usual GM-speak. What more do you want? :thumbsup: I agree with most of what you said. I just don't think it's very clever to call out some inapropriately highly drafted players when they predictably underperform. I think Buddy has made some good moves this off season. But he had a rough start--2010 draft, agreeing to the 3-4 defense and then hiring George Edwards to run it. These were huge blunders--and somewhat predictable. I'll kiss ass with the homers when all of this result in a winnong season. Until then, I'd rather reserve judgement and remain skeptical. Yeah but your act wears thin. It seems like you argue just for the sake of arguing. It is a noticeable & pretty significant point E is making. Nix is calling out 2nd & 3rd round picks that he drafted. Very few GM's call their own picks into question so early in their careers. Nix is confident & secure enough to do this. He was also candid about stating the excuses are over, it is time to start winning some ball games. Unlike some posters, I actually don't mind some of your posts but you do seem overly pessimistic most of the time almost as if you rather see the Bills lose & be able to B word about it then have them win & be happy about the team. If your a Bills fan & can't be optimistic going into training camp after the offseason we have had you probably should look for another team to route for. See above. I am more optimistic than in years actually. But my optimism doesn;t move me to start threads about how many guys will go to the pro bowl or how many teams are we going to shut out or whether Buddy will be GM of the year , etc. And if you've been paying attention to my "act", you'll see I don't repsond to those over the top type threads. I just don't see the calling out of these 2 players as Buddy admitting he may have made an error in picking them. I see it as the opposite--that he's telling the fans these guys aren't playing like the fine players he was sure they were when he drafted them, so it is their failure, not his. That's my interpretation and it's not overly "pessimistic" to say so--especially when I thought the Troup pick was fichy back then. If they get cut and Buddy comes into a presser and says he shouldn't have drafted them then e ball can post about him "taking the blame" for the picks. I don't see that type of breath of fresh air coming from Buddy or any GM.
DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Not a big deal. You can find the contract details on Rotoworld. I did get something wrong with my numbers though. I thought the contract extension just covered 2011-2014 for the $28.2 million. It was actually a 4-year extension, but represented a 5-year deal. What that would mean: 2010-2011 - $10.630 million for the two years in cap hit (don't know the breakout between the 2 except the $2.2 million per year prorated bonus). 2012 - $5.700 million 2013 - $5.925 million 2014 - $5.945 million Not quite as pricy as I thought, but still too much for my taste for a backup DE. So it looks like the truth was in the middle of both of us. And my last point will be that he is not a "backup" DE. He is solid depth at a position that will see a LOT of rotation. And frankly, he may be the 2nd best Run Stopping DE after Mario Williams. Look at it this way: We signed Mark Anderson to a very similar deal, and he only has 1 very good season, and mostly as a pass rusher. We are paying Kelsay about $6mil to be a solid DE who can stop the run, and Anderson about the same to be a solid DE who can rush the passer. And if either gets hurt, the other can fill the other role adequately. The money has to be spent, and Im all for spending it on the Lines
bmur66 Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Just the fans, who pay for the tickets to see the games and want to see the best product on the field for their dollar as possible. That fair. I hope we get our money's worth this year.
Luxy312 Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 So it looks like the truth was in the middle of both of us. And my last point will be that he is not a "backup" DE. He is solid depth at a position that will see a LOT of rotation. And frankly, he may be the 2nd best Run Stopping DE after Mario Williams. Look at it this way: We signed Mark Anderson to a very similar deal, and he only has 1 very good season, and mostly as a pass rusher. We are paying Kelsay about $6mil to be a solid DE who can stop the run, and Anderson about the same to be a solid DE who can rush the passer. And if either gets hurt, the other can fill the other role adequately. The money has to be spent, and Im all for spending it on the Lines I really don't think you can compare Mark Anderson to Kelsay. Anderson has never been a full time starter in his career and still managed to be a double digit sack guy twice (including last year). In Kelsay's complete seasons as a starter, he's only gotten between 2.5-5.5 sacks. That's not very impressive even when he was the full time guy. As far as being a "run stopper", this team has been absolutely awful against the run and for a long long time. 27th in Y/A last year. 32nd the year before that, and 30th the year before that. The numbers don't support your suggestion that this is something that Kelsay has excelled at. More to the point, Kelsay has played the LDE position his entire career. Suggesting he can suddenly play RDE (where Anderson will start) is a bit of a reach. Right now, Kelsay is set up to spell Mario and behind him on the depth charts on the left side, whereas Merriman is set up to spell Mark and on behind him on the depth charts on the right side.
John from Riverside Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 The guy I feel has been really hosed through all of this is Carrington...... He is such an absolute athletic freak that he has no true position....which is compouned by a DC in Edwards that would ask him to do things that were not realistic.... A 300 pound linebacker? Really? What this means is that for a huge man this guy is extremely athletic.....but he is NOT going to move like a 250-270 pound guy no matter what......its like comparing a middleweight with a heavyweight but in THIS defense where Wanstaddt keeps things extremely simple he doesn't have to try to cut weight down to be a linebacker....he can be "as big as he wants" meaning that he can go to 310 if that is his natural weight and just line up and shoot caps as a inside defensive tackle..... The question now becomes does he have the power to go against big huge hulking roadgrating guards......
Luxy312 Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 That fair. I hope we get our money's worth this year. For the first time in 3 years, I bought the Sunday Ticket. I certainly hope to get my money's worth and I hope it starts with a week 1 thumping of the New Jersey Jets.
boyst Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 So it looks like the truth was in the middle of both of us. And my last point will be that he is not a "backup" DE. He is solid depth at a position that will see a LOT of rotation. And frankly, he may be the 2nd best Run Stopping DE after Mario Williams. Look at it this way: We signed Mark Anderson to a very similar deal, and he only has 1 very good season, and mostly as a pass rusher. We are paying Kelsay about $6mil to be a solid DE who can stop the run, and Anderson about the same to be a solid DE who can rush the passer. And if either gets hurt, the other can fill the other role adequately. The money has to be spent, and Im all for spending it on the Lines And then you get whatever comes from Merriman. Imagine Merriman 80% of what he was then trading deadline comes what we could get for Kelsay? Merriman? Anderson? Or one of their backups?
milehiLou Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I believe modrak had alot to do with that draft, i think he allowed Nix (gailey) the first pick and he would take second two, like old pickup games. Troup was picked because at the time Kyle W was a good player but had not achieved the success consistantly that he did in '10 and was viewed by many as too small to succeed as a true NT. (which we now know is wrong) Kellen Heard displayed the ability last season to make Troup expendable unless he shows he has the ability to make plays on the field. I think Carrington is a valuable player in rotation because he has experience at end and the size to move inside on pure passing downs, and is pretty cheap on the cap (as is Heard) compared to Spencer or Dwan.
Mark Long Beach Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 It is a valid point that there were some that did not think these picks were good from the instant they were announced. That is a fact, and those people may not be quite so "exuberant" about Nix hinting about a possible admission. It's just real hard to give too much credit for people not liking a draft pick the instant they heard it. Especially for players with less name recognition or who play an out-of-favor-position-of-the-day. For a kick re-read the comments about the second round draft pick of Byrd who's arguably a top 10 safety in the NFL. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/87947-round-2-pick-42-jairus-byrd-cb-oregon/ Lots of people instantly hated that pick. I don't give them much credit at all.
truth on hold Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Lol can't believe Ive been awy for hours, come back and it's 4 pages and growing. It's no secret to anyone where and when they were drafted, that neither has done a whole lot and that theyre gonna need to see more this years. Heck would nix get credit for "standing up" and conceding its been a hot summer? Reality is the message had encouragement anyway: troupes finally putting the injuries behind him, and carrigtons moving inside where his size better suits him. Some "call out". And no e ball I have no agenda against you or anyone else here (unlike you it seems toward me). But this one should have been aborted from the start. Hey everyone can succumb to fan enthusiasm and Get carried away aometimes Don't be so defensive. Edited July 25, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack
stony Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I really don't think you can compare Mark Anderson to Kelsay. Anderson has never been a full time starter in his career and still managed to be a double digit sack guy twice (including last year). In Kelsay's complete seasons as a starter, he's only gotten between 2.5-5.5 sacks. That's not very impressive even when he was the full time guy. As far as being a "run stopper", this team has been absolutely awful against the run and for a long long time. 27th in Y/A last year. 32nd the year before that, and 30th the year before that. The numbers don't support your suggestion that this is something that Kelsay has excelled at. More to the point, Kelsay has played the LDE position his entire career. Suggesting he can suddenly play RDE (where Anderson will start) is a bit of a reach. Right now, Kelsay is set up to spell Mario and behind him on the depth charts on the left side, whereas Merriman is set up to spell Mark and on behind him on the depth charts on the right side. Pretty sure Kelsay was w/ the 1s during minicamp. Anderson will have to beat him out for the position, right now it's Kelsay's to lose whether fans like it or not.
eball Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 You don't have to apologize for being a homer--it balances out the "pessimists" like me I guess. That's why this is such a great place, I think. Nothing in my initial response was uncivil. You need to grow a thicker skin and defend your positions better, that's all I'm saying. And I would never put someone on ignore--that's crazy. MAkes no sense. Here's the thing, WEO -- I DO defend my posts with facts and logical opinions. You refuse to engage in a civil discussion, though -- it's as if you're just disgusted that someone could take an optimistic viewpoint. The Kelsay thing is a great example -- I get fed up with all of the "cut Kelsay" bullcrap so I post SPECIFIC QUOTES from the Bills coaches explaining why they value him. I'm called a homer for that -- what gives? I agree with most of what you said. I just don't think it's very clever to call out some inapropriately highly drafted players when they predictably underperform. I think Buddy has made some good moves this off season. But he had a rough start--2010 draft, agreeing to the 3-4 defense and then hiring George Edwards to run it. These were huge blunders--and somewhat predictable. I'll kiss ass with the homers when all of this result in a winnong season. Until then, I'd rather reserve judgement and remain skeptical. See above. I am more optimistic than in years actually. But my optimism doesn;t move me to start threads about how many guys will go to the pro bowl or how many teams are we going to shut out or whether Buddy will be GM of the year , etc. And if you've been paying attention to my "act", you'll see I don't repsond to those over the top type threads. I just don't see the calling out of these 2 players as Buddy admitting he may have made an error in picking them. I see it as the opposite--that he's telling the fans these guys aren't playing like the fine players he was sure they were when he drafted them, so it is their failure, not his. That's my interpretation and it's not overly "pessimistic" to say so--especially when I thought the Troup pick was fichy back then. If they get cut and Buddy comes into a presser and says he shouldn't have drafted them then e ball can post about him "taking the blame" for the picks. I don't see that type of breath of fresh air coming from Buddy or any GM. You are really picking nits here. First, there are always fans who disagree with draft picks, but clearly the GM believes in them or he wouldn't be making the selections...right? Second, tell me the last time you heard a GM call out a 2nd rounder and 3rd rounder, two years after they were drafted, as needing to "get it done now." If that's not accepting responsibility for the picks and demanding accountability, I don't know what is. Buddy knows he was the guy who drafted them. That, my friend, is most certainly a breath of fresh air.
Mark Long Beach Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 You are really picking nits here. First, there are always fans who disagree with draft picks, but clearly the GM believes in them or he wouldn't be making the selections...right? Second, tell me the last time you heard a GM call out a 2nd rounder and 3rd rounder, two years after they were drafted, as needing to "get it done now." If that's not accepting responsibility for the picks and demanding accountability, I don't know what is. Buddy knows he was the guy who drafted them. That, my friend, is most certainly a breath of fresh air. Not only that, he called out Troup & Carrington by names even though the questioner didn't directly use them. So it IS a little more of a calling out than was "necessary".
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