David Nelson speaks about team divisiveness in 2010

[Captain Hindsight]

the question remains... is that because hes been that good, or everyone else is that lackluster? i would say it would be an easy spot to still upgrade, but hes not bad either.

 

A 6'5'' receiver with great hands? Ya he's good.

[vincec]

"You can't turn the page until you're successful," Gailey said. "There's a lot of excitement. There's good reason for it. But we have not turned the page. We have to go prove it on Sundays before that changes."

 

This is my take on all of this. "Show me the baby."

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Some of you guys have me shaking my head. Nelson didn't "out" anyone (wasn't the comment about Fitz's ribs after the end of the season?). Every locker room has a "go to" guy for the press, and Nelson hasn't made any controversial comments or said anything that would impact his current team and teammates. He's not a smack talker, and genuinely seems to be a good guy.

 

Hola eball I hope your neck doesn't hurt from all that head shaking.

 

Fitz: it was very clear from FItz's response when he was called after Nelson spilled, he did not want that information out in the press for whatever reason. If you're tight with someone, and they know something about you that you don't want generally known, and they spill, how do you feel about that? You admire them for their candor? You remind yourself they're a genuinely good guy? You know they did it for the best motives? Maybe so, but I'm betting you also throw up a couple of mental curtains and get more reserved. It puts distance between you, instead of helping you bond and build trust. Is it wrong? No. Is it a huge deal? No. Is it a good idea? Also no.

 

"Leader of the Position Group" comment - I agree completely with in-a-gadda-levitre "We have no idea if Nelson was talking about Evans. He could have been standing next to (at some point) the position group leader of the offensive line, the running backs, or just about anyone else and heard a comment whispered like that". For all we know, Nelson could have been talking about leaders of other position groups, running backs (Lynch) safeties (Whitner), who knows?" I personally suspect Lynch because he was spun out of town like a top for less than we could have gotten for him, as if the coaches went to Nix and say "get this guy on a plane - NOW. But that's me.

 

Yet on this board, the overwhelming majority believe Nelson to be talking about a specific position player in the WR position group. Do you think we're different than the rest of the world? I don't. Everyone is going to take it that way. Sure, Nelson didn't name names - he didn't do anything explictly wrong or nasty, but he essentially fingered Evans as back-dooring the coaching staff to subvert the younger players from listening to the coaches. Y'all don't see something wrong with that? Here's a guy who was a good player in his day, he's down in Jax trying to catch on and make the team, and his former teammate is saying something that almost everyone will interpret as applying to him, specifically. Is that how you'd want to be treated if you'd been let go from your job, and were trying to make good in a job elsewhere? Seriously? You'd give your former colleague a pass 'cuz he's a nice guy and he just didn't realize how it would be taken, and he really didn't do anything wrong, and he didn't name names? Maybe, but it would still not do you any good and you're gonna think he needs to learn to shut his mouth more.

 

C'mon peeps, this isn't rocket science.

 

Neither is it dumping on Nelson, unless you have an unusually sensitive definition of dump. It's just saying he needs to mature a little, learn how to handle the media better, think things through a bit more. And shaddup.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Hopeful

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Ummm, pretty unprofessional, crying over spilt milk. Blaming guys that are not even here, this is a punk move.

That's ironic. You of all people accusing someone else of making a "punk move."

 

LMFAO!!!

 

Me neither. He isnt the only player quoted in the article, and no one names and names or throws anyone under the bus.

 

As a matter of fact, the very beginning of the article addresses that.

 

First three lines:

 

I bust his balls on here about "the incident" but it's a great article by Tim Graham. This is the type of reporting I've been wanting to see. Glad he is back on staff.

Tim's "Press Coverage" blog is outstanding… the best regular Bills coverage we've had in a very long time.

 

Or... combine it all. All of what you wrote, AND not buying into the new philosophy.

It's absolutely possible Evans brought the same reticence to run the whole route tree with him to Baltimore.

 

Why are people dumping on Nelson here and not Wilson? Why is what Nelson said bad and Wilson okay? Wilson's comments are only somewhat less specific, but amount to the same thing.

 

kj

Agreed. I couldn't disagree more with the criticism of David Nelson.

 

I found this quote interesting..

 

Respectability has been emphasized under Nix, who reckoned the Bills take prospects with character concerns off their draft board as quickly as any NFL club.

 

Not that it was unknown but it speaks to passing on Floyd this last year. I'll have to remember this come draft time.

I've said it numerous times here… as a rule the Bills do not talk about character… they only acquire it.

 

My first thought after reading the OP was that Donte was the guy being referred to. If I recall he was a team captain at one point, and obviously felt the NFL needed him more than he needed the NFL. The Player's ego is size of the Pacific

Donte's ego seemed fueled by insecurity though… or as the article describes it, "false bravado."

 

yeah. And it matches up with the Coach's/GM's indirect words (and actions) as they shipped out Evans. As listed in a post above, there really wasn't any other receiver who could have been the head of the receiving corps.

The only other person Nelson could have been implicating would be the WRs Coach. But I don't think so.

 

Nelson isnt all that great and I feel that he himself could be riding pine. he certainly is good at convincinf everyone that he and fitz are tight and on the same page but competition is def on his heals and i believe don jones takes the slot w the rookie or easly as second speed threat. Nelson needs to improve his game tremendously in order to start.

Nelson's not a great receiver but he's a good one and will be second on the team in receptions again this year.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Interesting take, but when combined with Gailey's offseason comments between the 2010 and 2011 season about Lee needing to do "more things" I think it's pretty obvious where the issue was.

 

It's one thing for a player to be limited in his repetoire and to struggle or hold back from trying new roles.

 

It's another to be a position leader and be explicitly telling other players not to listen to the coaches.

 

Why are people dumping on Nelson here and not Wilson? Why is what Nelson said bad and Wilson okay? Wilson's comments are only somewhat less specific, but amount to the same thing.

 

Let me ask you this, kj. What specific players are the majority of people naming as a result of Wilson's comments? They're sufficiently less specific that no one is sure exactly who Wilson is talking about.

 

See the difference?

 

That's ironic. You of all people accusing someone else of making a "punk move."

 

LMFAO!!!

 

 

SJBF, darlin'**, don't feed the troll

 

**in the spirit of Chix and Nailey. They're SOUTHERN.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Hopeful

[San Jose Bills Fan]

That's a tad harsh man. But yea let's dump on a ex-Bill who to me was a model team mate, other than rumor and innuendo that people like to throw in after his departure and call him a "malcontent". Laughable.

First let me say that I don't have a clue as to Lee Evans' true character.

 

I would say though that just because someone is mild-mannered doesn't mean that the person is a model teammate or a classy guy.

 

The people who criticize Evans' behavior (QB controversy role, etc) have just as much ammo as those who defend him.

 

Certainly, Kelsay has been a dependable- if nothing else- grinder of an ok defensive end. A (very) poor man's Phil Hansen. So, play on the field did not warrant the amount of the extension that he received.

 

But, if signing him was the figurehead move of an entire franchise- i.e., sign those grinders and workers to build from as examples of what TO DO- then this makes great sense.

 

I'm even more encouraged that the franchise is now in capable hands.

Kelsay's extension makes a LOT more sense in the context of this article. Great point.

 

5 pages on this in less than 12 hours. Damn, lets start training camp already.

Hmmm… you don't find this to be an interesting subject… a revealing glimpse into the recent culture at One Bills Drive just before Chixley took over?

 

Certainly more interesting than a topic about whether Fitz is a franchise QB or not.

 

 

 

 

 

SJBF, darlin'**, don't feed the troll

Actually I have that person on "ignore" but saw the bush league comments in someone else's reply.

 

I usually don't feed them and my ignore list is sadly up to about 20 people.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Actually I have that person on "ignore" but saw the bush league comments in someone else's reply.

 

I usually don't feed them and my ignore list is sadly up to about 20 people.

 

Ah, yes that pitfall of the ignore feature!

[loserlovers]

In front of the media. Were you in the locker room or player meetings? Do you recall Gailey's comments when asked about getting Evans more involved in the offense?

 

Again, Nelson didn't say [Evans] was a bad guy. He said it was obvious some people weren't buying in.

ya thats not really a fair question. who of us was in the actual locker room? all we can do is judge a guy for 8 years of what he says in the media. Andre Reed was a baby in the end, moulds had his comments, Lee basically got cut last minute and still didnt have a negative thing to say. For a guy that had crap coaching and even worse QBing Id say he had a lot of things he could have said, but never did. If he said things behinfd closed doors, well, so does every player. Lee was the reason we even went 7-9 all those years vs maybe 3-13. You cant assume it was Lee just because hes gone. Thats bad science and goes against his entire history here. And why would he rip gailey? you dont think Lee is smart and could see Gailey was doing good things?

 

What about the rumor that Russ brandon took a paper to Gailey and said,"pick one" and they had to cut either Lee or kelsay or some high paid guy before they started the season. That was why he got traded. Not for the myth of "not running underneath routes"

[eball]

ya thats not really a fair question. who of us was in the actual locker room? all we can do is judge a guy for 8 years of what he says in the media. Andre Reed was a baby in the end, moulds had his comments, Lee basically got cut last minute and still didnt have a negative thing to say. For a guy that had crap coaching and even worse QBing Id say he had a lot of things he could have said, but never did. If he said things behinfd closed doors, well, so does every player. Lee was the reason we even went 7-9 all those years vs maybe 3-13. You cant assume it was Lee just because hes gone. Thats bad science and goes against his entire history here. And why would he rip gailey? you dont think Lee is smart and could see Gailey was doing good things?

That's my point. The fans have NO idea what goes on behind closed doors. Again, Nelson didn't say anybody "ripped" Gailey, he simply implied (strongly) that "leaders" on the team were not necessarily buying in to what Gailey was selling. As I've stated repeatedly in this thread, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming he was referring to Lee. That doesn't mean Lee wasn't a good player and teammate, or political in front of the media -- and nobody could blame him for some bitterness playing on all of those bad teams with atrocious coaching (particularly on the offensive side of the ball).

 

What about the rumor that Russ brandon took a paper to Gailey and said,"pick one" and they had to cut either Lee or kelsay or some high paid guy before they started the season. That was why he got traded. Not for the myth of "not running underneath routes"

Yes, what about this? It's a ridiculous rumor that has no basis in fact, nor have any of the actions of the franchise under the Nix/Gailey regime suggested anyone other than Nix is making the football decisions. There's a reason that rumor never had legs -- it's complete b.s.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

That's my point. The fans have NO idea what goes on behind closed doors. Again, Nelson didn't say anybody "ripped" Gailey, he simply implied (strongly) that "leaders" on the team were not necessarily buying in to what Gailey was selling. As I've stated repeatedly in this thread, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming he was referring to Lee. That doesn't mean Lee wasn't a good player and teammate, or political in front of the media -- and nobody could blame him for some bitterness playing on all of those bad teams with atrocious coaching (particularly on the offensive side of the ball).

 

What he actually said was "The leader of each position group has to believe in what the head man is trying to do," Nelson said. "If the leader of that group is doing his own thing or if the head man is telling us one thing and the group leader is whispering things like 'Oh, don't listen to him,' then the team falls apart."

 

You are inferring that the position leader Nelson is referring to was Lee Evans. I don't think that's necessarily a correct reference, but I understand why you think so. I think a lot of other people will read the Nelson quote and thing so.

 

And if so, what Nelson said goes beyond "not necessarily buying in". It says one or more position leaders were telling their teammates not to buy in to the coaches.

 

That's not a good finger to point at someone who many will feel is identifiable, and who is struggling to make another team, which is why I feel Nelson needs to master the art of Verbal Discretion.

 

Lee basically got cut last minute and still didnt have a negative thing to say.

 

Lee was not cut. He was traded for a significant draft pick (4th round - rounds 1-4 are typically expected to contribute on good-drafting teams). There is a significant difference between being cut, and being traded to a perennial playoff contender for a 4th round pick

Edited July 25, 2012 by Hopeful

[thebandit27]

First let me say that I don't have a clue as to Lee Evans' true character.

 

I would say though that just because someone is mild-mannered doesn't mean that the person is a model teammate or a classy guy.

The people who criticize Evans' behavior (QB controversy role, etc) have just as much ammo as those who defend him.

 

Strong point.

 

I can remember thinking for years what a great teammate and person Marvin Harrison must've been, simply because he went about his business and carried that same mild mannerism.

 

Then this stuff came out:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/14/marvin-harrison-shooting_n_423586.html

 

We can never really know a person's true character; especially someone we don't know personally.

[Gordio]

There is no doubt nelson was talking about Evans. Come on guys connect the dots. I have it on a pretty good source that Evans & Gailey did not see eye to eye on the way the offense should be runned & he should be used & that gailey could not get Evans out of here fast enough. Didn't one time during traing camp Gailey stated something to the effect that Evans needed to start running better more precise routes. That is a pretty good shot coming from a head coach to a 7-8 year veteran receiver. Evans to me was always a little overrated as a teammate. He threw Edwards under the bus a few times(not that it wasn't deserved at times) & he always seemed like he had these underlying meanings in his quotes. Good receiver that had a nice career but I think when Nix/Gailey took over they immediately earmarked Evans as expendable.

[EC-Bills]

He is obviously talking about Garrison Sanborn. It just boggles my mind that Nix hasn't yet removed that cancer from the locker room.

 

Franchise long snappers are hard to find in this day and age.

[BRAWNDO]

What do you make of this passage from this morning's article in The News?

 

"Wide receiver David Nelson was a rookie Gailey's first season, but Nelson noticed an unpleasant carryover from the previous regime.

 

"The leader of each position group has to believe in what the head man is trying to do," Nelson said. "If the leader of that group is doing his own thing or if the head man is telling us one thing and the group leader is whispering things like 'Oh, don't listen to him,' then the team falls apart.

 

"I think we've gotten rid of all that. Guys are giving up selfish ambitions and buying into that team atmosphere."

 

So what I'm getting is that Lee Evans was somewhat divisive behind the scenes. Anyone else have a different take? Nelson's first season was Evans's last (2010), in which he (Evans)would have been the leader of the receivers' position group. If this was the "purge" it now appears to be, it might help explain Buddy's dancing around the issue of Evans' release back then.

 

Great Stuff!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I can remember thinking for years what a great teammate and person Marvin Harrison must've been, simply because he went about his business and carried that same mild mannerism.

 

Then this stuff came out:

 

http://www.huffingto...g_n_423586.html

 

We can never really know a person's true character; especially someone we don't know personally.

 

That story about Harrison is sad on so many levels...a modern-day Shakespearian tragedy, and an example of the gangsta mentality infecting so many of our black youth (male and female).

[Thurman#1]

What do you make of this passage from this morning's article in The News?

 

"Wide receiver David Nelson was a rookie Gailey's first season, but Nelson noticed an unpleasant carryover from the previous regime.

 

"The leader of each position group has to believe in what the head man is trying to do," Nelson said. "If the leader of that group is doing his own thing or if the head man is telling us one thing and the group leader is whispering things like 'Oh, don't listen to him,' then the team falls apart.

 

"I think we've gotten rid of all that. Guys are giving up selfish ambitions and buying into that team atmosphere."

 

So what I'm getting is that Lee Evans was somewhat divisive behind the scenes. Anyone else have a different take? Nelson's first season was Evans's last (2010), in which he (Evans)would have been the leader of the receivers' position group. If this was the "purge" it now appears to be, it might help explain Buddy's dancing around the issue of Evans' release back then.

 

 

It's certainly one guess. Might even be true. Might just as easily not. Could be a reference to Marshawn. Or Hangartner (the most experienced OL starter that year, by a couple of years). Or even Trent. And that's only the offense, it could just as easily be a defender he's talking about. Or multiple guys.

 

It's a guess. You can't assume it's true.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

Or.... Maybe, juuuust maybe the Bills cut their losses with Lee Evans because he is no longer able to play at a starting level, run any routes other than a go route, get enough separation from defenders, or make plays that would extend drives.

 

Since he has done so much since leaving Buffalo, it couldn't possibly have been that stuff...

 

 

 

The guy was injured. It's not easy to extend drives from a hospital bed.

 

Personally, I always thought it was because he and Fitz just weren't a good fit. Lee didn't have an unbelievably fast first few steps, but his top end was among the fastest in the league. So he would often not get free till 20 or 25 yards down the field. And while Fitz's arm is fine for an NFL QB, his ceiling is about 49 or 50 yards, and if he threw when Lee was starting to get open, he was going to have to slow down for it. Losman had a cannon and regularly threw 55 or even 60 yarders. Losman also was willing to throw before Lee got open, and Fitz just never seemed to trust him that much. Just a really bad match of styles, IMHO.

 

Possible, I guess, that Lee was either the guy or one of the guys Nelson was referring to. But it's a guess and nothing more.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Thurman#1

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The guy was injured. It's not easy to extend drives from a hospital bed.

 

Personally, I always thought it was because he and Fitz just weren't a good fit. Lee didn't have an unbelievably fast first few steps, but his top end was among the fastest in the league. So he would often not get free till 20 or 25 yards down the field. And while Fitz's arm is fine for an NFL QB, his ceiling is about 49 or 50 yards, and if he threw when Lee was starting to get open, he was going to have to slow down for it. Losman had a cannon and regularly threw 55 or even 60 yarders. Losman also was willing to throw before Lee got open, and Fitz just never seemed to trust him that much. Just a really bad match of styles, IMHO.

 

Possible, I guess, that Lee was either the guy or one of the guys Nelson was referring to. But it's a guess and nothing more.

 

I was watching Youtube highlights of the Bills in 2010 and 2011 and it was striking how many of the good completions were to Parrish and Evans. I agree that Fitz and Evans didn't have "It" but it was never clear to me why. It was notable to me that Lee was not at Camp Fitz. When I've watched film, a lot of missed long throws to Evans from Fitz were actually overthrows. I don't know if that's just an unrepresentative set, it's just what I saw. If the Camp Fitz thing is representative, could it have been that Evans wasn't willing to work extra with Fitz to establish timing?

 

I don't think Evans was an outright locker room virus, or he would have been spun out of here in 2010 along with Lynch.

[mrags]

Agreed. Schobel played his ass off on some bad teams. Contrarian? Maybe...he certainly walked his own path. I'd hardly think of him as a quitter, though.

 

I wouldn't consider Lynch in that category, either. Lynch's problem was less selfishness and more knuckleheadedness.

let's not kid ourselves. Lynch was at the least a distraction and while Schobel didnplay his ass off his career for us that doesn't negate the fact that he quit. He could have played longer, basically stated that he didn't want to go through another rebuild. Most likely (no real proof) he didn't want to switch positions to 3-4 olb which he was suited for anyway. At th end of the day, as a leader and Captain, he quit on his team probably for the same reasons as Lee Evans (as assumed by Nelsons comments). It just sounds like Lee and Schobel were not buying into what Gailey was selling. Not to take away from thier thoughts, both players had played through multiple caching changes and were probably doubting the FO in general. Or maybe they were part of the players as a whole that helped bring this team down. Yeah they might have been good but that doesn't mean they were great locker room guys or team mates. It just might mean they were good and greedy and wanted thier own personal gains and didn't care about the team. Of course this is all unknown and unless Nelson or someone comes out and admits certain names (which will most likely never happen) we will never know. It's all speculation. But it does hold water that alot of the "leaders" on those teams are no longer here.

[Jauronimo]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was Lee. I also can't blame him too much. He played his whole career on a losing team under 4 different head coaches, 5 QBs, and at least 4 different OCs. The system Gailey wanted to run on offense and defense really didn't suit Lee or Schobel and they both moved on. If Lee had a miserable attitude in hist last season in Buffalo he at least kept his gripes in house. Show me a team that doesn't have this same issue during a total overhaul of the entire front office, coaching staff and roster.

 

Its good to see that the general attitude and morale are much improved though.