Penn State sanctions handed down

[Fan in San Diego]

It will be interesting to see how many players leave the school.

[NoSaint]

It will be interesting to see how many players leave the school.

New guys had to have some idea what was coming when they signed. I think you see some guys that were already on the fence take a shot but i don't know that it'll be a mass exodus.

[Haplo848]

These sanctions are complete bull. This whole situation is not a football problem, it was a problem with the current and retired administration. Something DEFINITELY needs to be done with regards to the people involved. And guess what? Something IS being done. The people responsible (Sandusky, Curly, etc.) are all on trial or have already been convicted. However, not everything has been released, nor will it until the trials are over. For the NCAA to hand down sanctions at this point in time is irresponsible and is simply a knee-jerk reaction.

 

What everyone seems to be missing here is that the Freeh report was an investigation that was IMPLEMENTED BY PENN STATE. They investigated themselves! Everything in the Freeh report is anything that is or could be construed as wrong-doing by people within the administration. There is no attempt at a defense for Penn State in it, it was simply laying out facts. Neither Penn State, nor the people being condemned, have had a chance to defend themselves. Everyone seems to be coming to the conclusion that the Freeh report is infallible and law. It's the opinions and conclusions of one man after his investigation. Oh, and the "proof" that Paterno actually did ANYTHING wrong? Two emails. That's it. Of those two emails, only one is particularly damning, where it asks if there's an investigation going and what the status of it was (which means that he actually was aware of a prior investigation). The funny thing about these emails? Joe Paterno DID NOT USE EMAIL. They were sent by a grad student, supposedly at Paterno's behest.

 

Pretty much this whole situation over Paterno has been completely overblown and whipped into a frenzy by the media. They are obsessed with covering the fall of a giant that they are making sure that it actually happens. As a grad student at Penn State, I've been seeing one knee-jerk reaction after another. None of those decisions have seemed like they were well thought out or for the good of all. They all have essentially been people trying to save their own a$$es and maintain their own image in front of the media who would lacerate them if they didn't.

 

There are good things about the sanction. An entire year's worth of football profits ($60 million) is gone from Penn State. You hit an institution with such huge loss, it will ensure that pressure is put upon administrators to never let something like this happen again, to go by the book. That money goes to helping people who have been victims of child abuse (Note: it does nothing to stop the child abuse from happening). However, the problem with the sanctions as I see it as that not only are they trying to destroy the people who allowed Sandusky to perpetrate his heinous crimes, they're trying to destroy Penn State football, and more importantly, the entire culture that Paterno in large part helped to build. He instituted a "victory with integrity" culture at Penn State and maintained it his entire time here. He believed that student-athletes could be both athletes AND students. His family has donated incredible amounts of money to promote learning at Penn State. But with the sanctions handed down, the people at Penn State that hold these ideals will be gone, the football program will essentially be dead for 4 years, and by the time it finally starts up again, the people who maintained this culture will be long gone, and my guess is that this culture will be gone with it. I know that Paterno didn't follow through on the ideals he instituted 100% of the time. People have envisioned this god-like ideal of Paterno. When it was finally revealed that he was just human after all, people have been shocked and scandalized. But in his time here, Paterno did do much more good then bad.

 

P.S. Want proof that Paterno's culture was such a success at Penn State?

http://ideas.time.com/2011/12/07/paternos-revenge-penn-state-football-is-no-1-in-academic-bowl/

Penn State graduates the most student-athlete football players within the given time frame of Division I schools. Not only that, but there is no achievement gap between black and white players (At LSU, by comparison, the team’s black players are 32% less likely to graduate than their white counterparts).

[Lurker]

boo hoo

Another tree falls in the forest...

 

Let's not get carried away. I think as long as the players weren't also complicit in the child rape going on behind Sandusky's doors, then their college experience hasn't been tainted in any way other than knowing the leaders at their school made some very bad decisions. They still played the games, attended classes, and had the same "Penn State Experience" as hundreds before and after them.

I'm talking about the current team. Very few of them will get a chance to transfer to quality programs at this point in the season when all the scholarships have been already allocated.

[Mr. WEO]

They have to reduce the scholarships over time to 65 total--a couple of years from now. I would guess 20-30% of their scholarships are wasted on 2nd and 3rd string kids who play nearly not at all through their careers at Penn State. Don't they dress like 100 guys for home games?

 

Look, top recruits weren;t going to go to Penn State before the sanctions--especially with the new coaching staff. No Heisman candidates are on that roster (when was the last time one was??). They had 2 guys drafted in 2011 and 4 this year--one in the second round and the rest in the 5th and later. This program isn't what it used to be--in a conference with a lot of teams that fit that description.

[Mark Vader]

he was clearly pointing out the SEC is the top dog and that no one else matters... that said penn state might not be an elite program but they were definitely an upper echelon program that 95% of teams would have traded records/bowl success with.

Here is his original post on this matter:

Mr. WEO

 

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Posted Today, 10:58 AM

Oooooo. No postseason. We won;t be thrilled by Penn State in the "Ticket City Bowl", the "Outback Bowl" or the Capital One Bowl".

 

Big deal.. This team became irrelevant some time ago.

 

What's with the 60 million fine? Where does that go?

 

I do not see anything in there about the SEC.

[NoSaint]

Here is his original post on this matter:

 

 

I do not see anything in there about the SEC.

He later made reference more than once about the school and the big ten being in a decline and not being powerhouses anymore. Who took that title - the sec. I know the dots weren't explicitly connected but I think it was a pretty easy one to see. The big 10 getting beat up by the sec is a pretty basic story line and talking about the big ten not being premiere is closely related.

 

Not to mention his post that the players won't be getting shots in the SEC.

 

Notice your correcting me, not him.

Edited July 24, 2012 by NoSaint

[Offside Number 76]

Write this down: with this "punishment," PSU will be in a bowl game the first year that it is eligible. They will go at least the minimum 6-5, and will get into one. (They likely will go 9-2 or something and be a preseason favorite like USC, but let's leave that alone for now.)

 

This is no real change. There will be no real inducement for PSU to properly focus its priorities.

[todd]

I am not a Penn State fan, I am not a Joe Paterno fan. Joe Paterno did not molest any children, Jerry Sandusky did. Joe Paterno was not convicted of a crime! Jerry Sandusky was. This is above and beyond the NCAA's business, Sports. They are not a court of law!

 

Did you really just type this?

[truth on hold]

They have to reduce the scholarships over time to 65 total--a couple of years from now. I would guess 20-30% of their scholarships are wasted on 2nd and 3rd string kids who play nearly not at all through their careers at Penn State. Don't they dress like 100 guys for home games?

 

But I think there's more nuance and importance to it than that. Scholarships in college are analogous to both sign on bomus and restricted free agency in pros: its how you.attract and keep your key players. The reason for such a seemingly high number is because of the higher attrtition rate among players. There's no such thing as a >4 year college starter unlike the NFL where some guys can have careers playing at high levels for the same team around 15 years. (Ray lewis)

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I am not a Penn State fan, I am not a Joe Paterno fan. Joe Paterno did not molest any children, Jerry Sandusky did. Joe Paterno was not convicted of a crime! Jerry Sandusky was. This is above and beyond the NCAA's business, Sports. They are not a court of law!

And what was Paterno's role? Have you actually followed this story at all?

 

Oh come on; they'll be back in a bowl game in 2016. It will be like this never happened. This punishment was more appropriate for what went on at Miami than for what went on at PSU.

You make two points, none of them very well explained.

 

When a college president is afraid for his job because a coach (Paterno) could UN-officially over rule him (he did) something is wrong. Man talk about a fall from grace. The Paterno name will now be forever shamed. Deservedly so.

It's very likely that Paterno had the most power in the room when discussing how to deal with this situation. He was the most powerful man at Penn State and people who don't understand that are very naive, IMO.

 

The players are welcome to transfer without penalty. They are not bearing the brunt of anything.

Wow.

 

A bit of an exaggeration. Penn State recruits very heavily in Pennsylvania. Many of the kids who play on the football team have dreamed about playing for Penn State since the first moment they knew what a football was. Is this a tragedy for them? I would judge that on a case-by-case basis but your comment about "not bearing the brunt of anything" is a bit ridiculous.

 

we very often do not punish what "enables the problem" and instead learn from mistakes and refine policies and practices to help prevent them in the future.

I think a lot of the NCAA sanctions were based upon the intention that this be a warning to other institutions. In other words, "If anything like this is happening at your school, you had damn better report it to the authorities and if you don't, this is what 's gonna happen."

 

I think it's an appropriate message. The collateral damage however is highly unfortunate.

 

New guys had to have some idea what was coming when they signed. I think you see some guys that were already on the fence take a shot but i don't know that it'll be a mass exodus.

Anyone know how their latest recruiting class stacks up to recruiting classes of the recent past?

 

 

[Captain Hindsight]

I am beyond embarrassed by some things Penn St Alum have been posting today. This is from someone on Facebook. I can't make this up

 

"I'm seriously beginning to think Sandusky was pimping boys out to judges and politicians and they are using Penn State as a smoke screen to cover their tracks. He couldn't bring it up during the trial because he knew he'd still get jail time and he thought he had an outside shot at beating the rap. Pressed by the Govenor and some of the board of trustees, the Penn State president agrees to everything in the Freeh report, and then sells out to the NCAA. Everything is over in a couple weeks. JoePa, Curlie, Shultz, and Spannier and 600,000 Penn Staters take the fall. All you have to do is find one of the boys"

 

Edited July 24, 2012 by Captain Hindsight

[Mr. WEO]

He later made reference more than once about the school and the big ten being in a decline and not being powerhouses anymore. Who took that title - the sec. I know the dots weren't explicitly connected but I think it was a pretty easy one to see. The big 10 getting beat up by the sec is a pretty basic story line and talking about the big ten not being premiere is closely related.

 

Not to mention his post that the players won't be getting shots in the SEC.

 

Notice your correcting me, not him.

 

Thanks Saint. I'll give Vader the benefit of the doubt and assume he missed my post on page 2 stating that none of these kids will be transferring their scholarships to the SEC.And as you say, the significant change in the status of the Big 10 over the years is hardly breaking news.

 

 

But I think there's more nuance and importance to it than that. Scholarships in college are analogous to both sign on bomus and restricted free agency in pros: its how you.attract and keep your key players. The reason for such a seemingly high number is because of the higher attrtition rate among players. There's no such thing as a >4 year college starter unlike the NFL where some guys can have careers playing at high levels for the same team around 15 years. (Ray lewis)

So what? If a guy leaves after a year or 2, his scholarship is given to someone else.

 

I don't understand posters who say Penn state will struggle to win a few, or even 1 game next year. They are returning the same team they were 24 hours ago. What, a few freshman may not stay? So what--how were they really going to alter the fate of this team as freshmen? And where are the upper classmen going to go? Nowhere.

 

I see very little changing in the composition of the team as a result of the penalty. In a few years, maybe it gets worse. But if they are pretty much the same team coming as they would have been, and they win 7 or 8 games anyway, and Michigan still sucks, and the fans still sell out the stadium--I say they still will get a large bulk of the regional recruits (who weren't going to the SEC, PAC-12...OR the NFL).

[Ramius]

Write this down: with this "punishment," PSU will be in a bowl game the first year that it is eligible. They will go at least the minimum 6-5, and will get into one. (They likely will go 9-2 or something and be a preseason favorite like USC, but let's leave that alone for now.)

 

This is no real change. There will be no real inducement for PSU to properly focus its priorities.

 

USC was completely different than penn st. Penn state is going to be gutted. Virtually everyone knowledgeable in college football, from sportswriters to TV guys, to coaches, believe that this is going to hurt penn state for a long time. No way penn state goes to a bowl the year they come back. here are some simple differences.

 

-USC got a 2 year bowl ban. That means that they can tell kids they'll redshirt a year, and by the start of their sophomore season they'll be bowl eligible and will get 3 shots at a bowl/title. penn state kids will never get a shot.

 

-USC is inifinitely better at recruiting than penn state is. I highlighted this in my earlier post. Kids beat down the door from all over the country to play at USC. The onyl kids that beat down the door to play at penn state are kids from BFE, PA. There's a huge talent differential.

 

-USC had years of appeals prior to being hit with the bowl ban. They basically stockpiled great freshmen so they'd be ready and raring to go when the ban was lifted. No way penn state can do this since an entire class or 2 will never get the chance to sniff a post season game.

 

-Penn state will struggle to physically field a team capable of competing on a week in and week out basis while under scholarship restriction. This won't be overcome the instant they are off of bowl ban and back to full scholarship.

 

-Finally, penn state has been an also-ran for years now. USC was recently a powerhouse. They aren't going to all of a sudden rise from the ashes coming off a 4 year bowl ban and be in the national picture. penn state will flounder for at least the better part of a decade.

 

Thanks Saint. I'll give Vader the benefit of the doubt and assume he missed my post on page 2 stating that none of these kids will be transferring their scholarships to the SEC.And as you say, the significant change in the status of the Big 10 over the years is hardly breaking news.

 

 

 

So what? If a guy leaves after a year or 2, his scholarship is given to someone else.

 

I don't understand posters who say Penn state will struggle to win a few, or even 1 game next year. They are returning the same team they were 24 hours ago. What, a few freshman may not stay? So what--how were they really going to alter the fate of this team as freshmen? And where are the upper classmen going to go? Nowhere.

 

I see very little changing in the composition of the team as a result of the penalty. In a few years, maybe it gets worse. But if they are pretty much the same team coming as they would have been, and they win 7 or 8 games anyway, and Michigan still sucks, and the fans still sell out the stadium--I say they still will get a large bulk of the regional recruits (who weren't going to the SEC, PAC-12...OR the NFL).

 

I said they'd have trouble winning a conference game...in a few seasons when the sanctions take full effect. This year's team will probably still be respectable, since i don't see many seniors leaving. But, in a few years, the team will be gutted of the little top end talent they had.

[Offside Number 76]

And what was Paterno's role? Have you actually followed this story at all?

 

You make two points, none of them very well explained.

 

It's very likely that Paterno had the most power in the room when discussing how to deal with this situation. He was the most powerful man at Penn State and people who don't understand that are very naive, IMO.

 

 

Wow.

 

A bit of an exaggeration. Penn State recruits very heavily in Pennsylvania. Many of the kids who play on the football team have dreamed about playing for Penn State since the first moment they knew what a football was. Is this a tragedy for them? I would judge that on a case-by-case basis but your comment about "not bearing the brunt of anything" is a bit ridiculous.

 

 

I think a lot of the NCAA sanctions were based upon the intention that this be a warning to other institutions. In other words, "If anything like this is happening at your school, you had damn better report it to the authorities and if you don't, this is what 's gonna happen."

 

I think it's an appropriate message. The collateral damage however is highly unfortunate.

 

 

Anyone know how their latest recruiting class stacks up to recruiting classes of the recent past?

 

 

Bold # 1. You tell me what part was difficult for you to understand, and I'll try to explain it for you. But I think you got it, and just had to disagree in a disagreeable way.

 

Bold # 2. Who cares? People dreamt of working for Credit Suisse and got laid off, too. This life is supposed to be full of guaranteed dreams? The students will be just fine playing for WVU or Ohio State.

 

USC was completely different than penn st. Penn state is going to be gutted. Virtually everyone knowledgeable in college football, from sportswriters to TV guys, to coaches, believe that this is going to hurt penn state for a long time. No way penn state goes to a bowl the year they come back. here are some simple differences.

 

-USC got a 2 year bowl ban. That means that they can tell kids they'll redshirt a year, and by the start of their sophomore season they'll be bowl eligible and will get 3 shots at a bowl/title. penn state kids will never get a shot.

 

-USC is inifinitely better at recruiting than penn state is. I highlighted this in my earlier post. Kids beat down the door from all over the country to play at USC. The onyl kids that beat down the door to play at penn state are kids from BFE, PA. There's a huge talent differential.

 

-USC had years of appeals prior to being hit with the bowl ban. They basically stockpiled great freshmen so they'd be ready and raring to go when the ban was lifted. No way penn state can do this since an entire class or 2 will never get the chance to sniff a post season game.

 

-Penn state will struggle to physically field a team capable of competing on a week in and week out basis while under scholarship restriction. This won't be overcome the instant they are off of bowl ban and back to full scholarship.

 

-Finally, penn state has been an also-ran for years now. USC was recently a powerhouse. They aren't going to all of a sudden rise from the ashes coming off a 4 year bowl ban and be in the national picture. penn state will flounder for at least the better part of a decade.

 

 

 

I said they'd have trouble winning a conference game...in a few seasons when the sanctions take full effect. This year's team will probably still be respectable, since i don't see many seniors leaving. But, in a few years, the team will be gutted of the little top end talent they had.

 

I understand, but just disagree. I think PSU's football program will be in perfect shape as soon as the ban ends. (Well, obviously, I do; I've said it three times now. Sorry for the redundancy.) It will be interesting to resurrect this thread then, I guess.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Offsides Number 76

[KD in CA]

they're trying to destroy Penn State football, and more importantly, the entire culture that Paterno in large part helped to build. He instituted a "victory with integrity" culture at Penn State and maintained it his entire time here.

 

So 'victory with integrity'' includes covering up child rape? You are dog****. Go cry your eyes out over your disgraced hero.

Edited July 24, 2012 by KD in CT

[NoSaint]

Bold # 1. You tell me what part was difficult for you to understand, and I'll try to explain it for you. But I think you got it, and just had to disagree in a disagreeable way.

 

Bold # 2. Who cares? People dreamt of working for Credit Suisse and got laid off, too. This life is supposed to be full of guaranteed dreams? The students will be just fine playing for WVU or Ohio State.

 

 

 

I understand, but just disagree. I think PSU's football program will be in perfect shape as soon as the ban ends. (Well, obviously, I do; I've said it three times now. Sorry for the redundancy.) It will be interesting to resurrect this thread then, I guess.

 

They will have some real struggles. In the last 8 months they went from prestige to shambles reputation wise, lost resources, lost recruiting connections and credibility, lost any and all continuity.... USC has to deal with 2 year punishments, LA star power, and southern cal weather while psu has 4 years, no identity and child rape.....

 

On tradition alone, they may field a competitive team along the way but they won't be able to get star power or gamechangers without luck. As we have seen, ties in the area are STRONG they will likely not be a 1 win team,, but inevitably they will take a hit. We saw how hard it was to get a real coach. He may be good but it wasn't a top option.

 

If the qb in this recruiting class amounts to anything (and he may - did I see he was a top 20 overall ranked recruit?) then it will change everything in the discussion. Barkley does wonders for the USC assessment.

 

I still think breaking .500 is going to take hitting on this coach choice as well as some more pieces falling into place. Not outlandish but will be a real accomplishment. From .500 the papajohns.com presented by sorrento cheese bowl isn't a reach.

 

Long story short.... They won't be totally crippled but they will have to work twice as hard and get twice as lucky to get half as far.

Edited July 24, 2012 by NoSaint

[truth on hold]

Thanks Saint. I'll give Vader the benefit of the doubt and assume he missed my post on page 2 stating that none of these kids will be transferring their scholarships to the SEC.And as you say, the significant change in the status of the Big 10 over the years is hardly breaking news.

 

 

 

So what? If a guy leaves after a year or 2, his scholarship is given to someone else.

 

I don't understand posters who say Penn state will struggle to win a few, or even 1 game next year. They are returning the same team they were 24 hours ago. What, a few freshman may not stay? So what--how were they really going to alter the fate of this team as freshmen? And where are the upper classmen going to go? Nowhere.

 

I see very little changing in the composition of the team as a result of the penalty. In a few years, maybe it gets worse. But if they are pretty much the same team coming as they would have been, and they win 7 or 8 games anyway, and Michigan still sucks, and the fans still sell out the stadium--I say they still will get a large bulk of the regional recruits (who weren't going to the SEC, PAC-12...OR the NFL).

replaced by what? a new, unproven guy who doesnt know their system. scholarship is essential to recruiting any desirable player. you dont think retaining top players matters? concurrently grooming their replacements? one analyst related to a major baseball team losing their entire farm system. THATS DEATH

 

idk how many games theyre going to win.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Bold # 1. You tell me what part was difficult for you to understand, and I'll try to explain it for you. But I think you got it, and just had to disagree in a disagreeable way.

 

Bold # 2. Who cares? People dreamt of working for Credit Suisse and got laid off, too. This life is supposed to be full of guaranteed dreams? The students will be just fine playing for WVU or Ohio State.

Who cares?

 

Like I said, it's not really a tragedy but it's not really for you to say things like "they are not bearing the brunt of anything" and "the students will be just fine playing for WVU or Ohio State."

 

How do you know? What if those schools are no longer options for them? For you to be this dismissive and flip is pretty offensive to me, I'll admit that.

 

 

"Oh come on; they'll be back in a bowl game in 2016. It will be like this never happened."

 

As for the above comment, I guess I'm mystified that you would think that. It's quite amazing the very wide range of views on the NCAA sanctions. Some like yourself see it as being a bump in the road. Others view it as a virtual death sentence having a decade-long effect on Penn State. But in that post at least you didn't support your view at all. Again, flip and unsupported. What do you think of Ramius' post?

 

 

"This punishment was more appropriate for what went on at Miami than for what went on at PSU."

 

Again, why enter a discussion if you really don't want to elaborate on your points? It's a mystery as to what point you're trying to make: That covering up child sexual abuse is the same as recruiting violations? That the nature of the transgression is the same? That the magnitude of the transgressions is the same?

Edited July 24, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Offside Number 76]

Who cares?

 

Like I said, it's not really a tragedy but it's not really for you to say things like "they are not bearing the brunt of anything" and "the students will be just fine playing for WVU or Ohio State. How do you know? What if those schools are no longer options for them? For you to be this dismissive and flip is pretty offensive to me, I'll admit that.

 

 

"Oh come on; they'll be back in a bowl game in 2016. It will be like this never happened."

As for the above comment, I guess I'm mystified that you would think that. It's quite amazing the very wide range of views on the NCAA sanctions. Some like yourself see it as being a bump in the road. Others view it as a virtual death sentence having a decades-long effect on Penn State. But in that post at least you didn't support your view at all. Again, flip and unsupported. What do you think of Ramius' post?

 

"This punishment was more appropriate for what went on at Miami than for what went on at PSU."

Again, why enter a discussion if you really don't want to elaborate on your points? It's a mystery as to what point you're trying to make: That covering up child sexual abuse is the same as recruiting violations? That the nature of the transgression is the same? That the magnitude of the transgressions is the same?

 

I do see it as nothing more than a bump in the road; it's ok if you see it differently. My thoughts on Ramius's post are covered in my response to it.

 

I am certain that any Penn State player has options available to him, but perhaps not the two schools that I used as examples. I'm not sure why that's offensive to you. Actually, it's pretty bizarre if that's offensive to you.

 

I think you are very deliberately confusing the Miami portion of the argument in your quest to "be right." It should be obvious that I do not think that the transgressions are the same, but rather, that I think the penalty imposed upon PSU would be more appropriate for recruiting violations than for the complete tragedy that happened at Penn State.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Offsides Number 76