boyst Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Well we do live in a world where Fitz is 29 and Dalton is 24. Doesn't that play a factor in your decision? Don't we also have to factor in the fact that Dalton was a rookie that had essentially no time to learn his playbook and still put up numbers on par with Fitz? Not to mention the fact that he had less weapons to work with. At least Fitz had a solid run game to work off of. If you also take in to account that Fitz has been in the NFL for about 8 years now and has more experience.
thebug Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I think Fitz will always be a middle/end of the pack kinda QB. If our D turns out to be as good as I think they can be, it may not matter as much.
paintmyhouse Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Let's be clear and honest here. Chan Gailey DID NOT build a system around Ryan Fitzpatrick. Chan Gailey has a system that Ryan Fitzpatrick happens to play in.
Billsrhody Posted July 18, 2012 Author Posted July 18, 2012 If you also take in to account that Fitz has been in the NFL for about 8 years now and has more experience. You can take that into account... but he also had 7 years of experience last year and didn't put up better numbers than the rookie.
yungmack Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Fitz is on year 8 and has not amounted to ****, I guess you and others just like more ****. I would not mind trying some new ****. I personally do not even care if they are better, because Fitzpatrick not only loses but he is not getting better. Bills would have been in a much better position with any of those guys right now. Based on your "reality is what I want it to be," I'll bet I can guess with 99.999999% accuracy who you're going to vote for as president
Rocky Landing Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Based on your "reality is what I want it to be," I'll bet I can guess with 99.999999% accuracy who you're going to vote for as president Let's not go there. This is football, not politics.
John from Riverside Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Well then by your logic you wouldn't trade Fitz for Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, RGIII? Also QBs with bright futures who might not be more productive than Fitz this year? At some point you might have to take a step back in order to move forward when you have a middle of the pack QB. Well we do live in a world where Fitz is 29 and Dalton is 24. Doesn't that play a factor in your decision? Don't we also have to factor in the fact that Dalton was a rookie that had essentially no time to learn his playbook and still put up numbers on par with Fitz? Not to mention the fact that he had less weapons to work with. At least Fitz had a solid run game to work off of. - A run game that lost its RB putting up Adrian Peterson numbers to injury - A run game that Chan would go away from because the defense couldnt stop anybody - And I disagree that Fitz had more weapons...he most certainly did not. Please go back and take a look at the receiving weapons that the bengals have The only way the ages factor is that we need to start thinking about Fitzpatricks successor.....not because he cant play well but because he wont play forever. Personally I am plenty fine with biudlign up the team AROUND the QB first because when they do go and target a QB we will survive his growning pains. My questions still have not been answered.....what was teh QB percentage in games Fitz was healthy as compared to those that Dalton was healthy? Let's be clear and honest here. Chan Gailey DID NOT build a system around Ryan Fitzpatrick. Chan Gailey has a system that Ryan Fitzpatrick happens to play in. What is the difference..... Your trolling
reddogblitz Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Based on the fact that Fitz was in the top 11 in yards, completion %(62%), TDs, sacks, and yes, picks, I think so absolutely. With a defense and real DC and hopefully better pass catching, he should be.
John from Riverside Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 You can take that into account... but he also had 7 years of experience last year and didn't put up better numbers than the rookie. Healthy games vers healthy games please
Rocky Landing Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Well then by your logic you wouldn't trade Fitz for Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, RGIII? Also QBs with bright futures who might not be more productive than Fitz this year? At some point you might have to take a step back in order to move forward when you have a middle of the pack QB. Newton, Luck, and RGIII are very different discussions. I agree that "at some point you might have to take a step back in order to move forward." And, Newton, Luck and Griffin might be worth the step back- not Dalton. Plus, I'm tired of moving back. It's been what, three years since the miserable Dick Jauron, and everyone associated with him, was sent packing? It feels like Gailey/Nix have been building for this year. Not next year or the year after. Let's be clear and honest here. Chan Gailey DID NOT build a system around Ryan Fitzpatrick. Chan Gailey has a system that Ryan Fitzpatrick happens to play in. I'll agree with this distinction. But, Chan wouldn't be a very good coach if he didn't modify his system around the strengths of his QB. Also, I take Chan at his word that he has faith in Fitz as their franchise QB. So, the distinction is largely semantic.
paintmyhouse Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Healthy games vers healthy games please Why not just pick one game then??? Why not one quarter? Fitz, healthy, at his best, versus anyone.
Billsrhody Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 - A run game that lost its RB putting up Adrian Peterson numbers to injury - A run game that Chan would go away from because the defense couldnt stop anybody - And I disagree that Fitz had more weapons...he most certainly did not. Please go back and take a look at the receiving weapons that the bengals have The only way the ages factor is that we need to start thinking about Fitzpatricks successor.....not because he cant play well but because he wont play forever. Personally I am plenty fine with biudlign up the team AROUND the QB first because when they do go and target a QB we will survive his growning pains. My questions still have not been answered.....what was teh QB percentage in games Fitz was healthy as compared to those that Dalton was healthy? Weapons: Bills: Top 3 Receivers Stevie Johnson 76 rec, 1004 yds, 7 tds David Nelson 56 rec, 658 yds, 5 tds Scott Chandler 38 rec, 389 yds, 6 tds Top 3 Rushers Fred Jackson 938 rsh yds, 6 tds, 5.5 ypc, 442 rec yds CJ Spiller 561 rsh yds, 4 tds, 5.2 ypc, 269 rec yds Bengals: Top 3 Receivers AJ Green 65 rec, 1057 yds, 7 tds Jerome Simpson 50 rec, 725 yds, 4 tds (the bengals liked him so much they let him walk in free agency) Jermain Gresham 56 rec, 596 yds, 6 tds Top 2 Rushers Cedric Benson 1067 rsh yds, 6 tds, 3.9 ypc, 82 rec yds Bernard Scott 380 rsh yds, 3 tds, 3.4 ypc, 38 rec yds I dont know about you.. but I'd much rather have the bills weapons, especially on the ground. Also you can't discount the fact that CJ came in for Freddy last year and played great as well. I'd take CJ over either Bengal running back any day of the week. Dalton did pretty well for himself despite his RBs averaging under 4 ypc. That's a full point under what Fitz was getting on a consistent basis for the whole season. Fitz In 6 Games: 134 cmp, 202 att, 66% cmp%, 12 TDs, 6 INTs, 246 yards/game Dalton In 16 Games: 300 cmp, 5516 att, 58% cmp%, 20 TDs, 13 INTs, 212 yards/game There are your healthy game stats.
eball Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Billsrhody, I'm not getting into this battle, but your stats don't contemplate game situations; namely, the fact Dalton plays for a team with a top 10 defense (7th in yards, 9th in points) and Fitz plays for a team with a defense that was, umm, not quite as good (26th yards, 30th points). Playing from "close" or ahead is much different than playing from behind.
Billsrhody Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 Billsrhody, I'm not getting into this battle, but your stats don't contemplate game situations; namely, the fact Dalton plays for a team with a top 10 defense (7th in yards, 9th in points) and Fitz plays for a team with a defense that was, umm, not quite as good (26th yards, 30th points). Playing from "close" or ahead is much different than playing from behind. Well the defense isn't going to throw for 20 TDs.. Also, Dalton did not have the luxury of a running game to lean on like Fitz did. He was also a rookie with no mini camps. Yes the defense will help his win #s but they will not make him a better QB. Brady and Rogers proved you don't need a D to put up monster #s. Haha are you getting into the argument or not?
eball Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Well the defense isn't going to throw for 20 TDs.. Also, Dalton did not have the luxury of a running game to lean on like Fitz did. He was also a rookie with no mini camps. Yes the defense will help his win #s but they will not make him a better QB. Brady and Rogers proved you don't need a D to put up monster #s. Haha are you getting into the argument or not? No, I'm tired of the disputes over whether Fitz is/isn't a good QB. He has a great opportunity to be successful this year and I hope he takes advantage. I also think the whole composition of a team (offense/defense/ST) plays a significant role in how good/bad a QB's stats look.
Billsrhody Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 No, I'm tired of the disputes over whether Fitz is/isn't a good QB. He has a great opportunity to be successful this year and I hope he takes advantage. I also think the whole composition of a team (offense/defense/ST) plays a significant role in how good/bad a QB's stats look. Well I definitely agree with you there
BuffBill Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Andy Dalton is a younger version of Ryan Fitzpatrick. And while I like Dalton....there is NOTHING to insinuate he is gonna have a better career then Ryan Fitzpatrick. Just because there were QBs in the draft does not mean they are gonna amount to **** He already has.
John from Riverside Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Weapons: Bills: Top 3 Receivers Stevie Johnson 76 rec, 1004 yds, 7 tds David Nelson 56 rec, 658 yds, 5 tds Scott Chandler 38 rec, 389 yds, 6 tds Top 3 Rushers Fred Jackson 938 rsh yds, 6 tds, 5.5 ypc, 442 rec yds CJ Spiller 561 rsh yds, 4 tds, 5.2 ypc, 269 rec yds Bengals: Top 3 Receivers AJ Green 65 rec, 1057 yds, 7 tds Jerome Simpson 50 rec, 725 yds, 4 tds (the bengals liked him so much they let him walk in free agency) Jermain Gresham 56 rec, 596 yds, 6 tds Top 2 Rushers Cedric Benson 1067 rsh yds, 6 tds, 3.9 ypc, 82 rec yds Bernard Scott 380 rsh yds, 3 tds, 3.4 ypc, 38 rec yds I dont know about you.. but I'd much rather have the bills weapons, especially on the ground. Also you can't discount the fact that CJ came in for Freddy last year and played great as well. I'd take CJ over either Bengal running back any day of the week. Dalton did pretty well for himself despite his RBs averaging under 4 ypc. That's a full point under what Fitz was getting on a consistent basis for the whole season. Fitz In 6 Games: 134 cmp, 202 att, 66% cmp%, 12 TDs, 6 INTs, 246 yards/game Dalton In 16 Games: 300 cmp, 5516 att, 58% cmp%, 20 TDs, 13 INTs, 212 yards/game There are your healthy game stats. First of.....thank you for providing honest stats and not trying to skew them.....because when you looked at those healthy number I know you cringed as it did not support your argument. back to the beginning of the post though - AJ green is going to be a special player in this league....Jerome Simpson had an excellent year (it does not matter that they let him walk...he was better then ANYTHING we had as a secondary receiver) and their TE is better then our TE. - The offensive weapons for the bills were in and out of the lineup with injury....which means they probably ARE better overall then Cinci's BUT THEY WERE NOT THERE FOR FITZ TO USE.....it does matter if they are better if they are not on the field..... - The numbers on the running backs are a bit of an enigma and seem to signify that we had two great running backs at the same time.....we didnt...when Fred was healthy....Spiller struggled to make an impact because he wasnt getting the touches....when Fred went down....CJ shined. It is up to Chan to keep both those running backs playing at that level in the same games now......but Fitz did not have 2 running backs running wild for him at the same time. - Cinci had a top 10 defense....this is not factored in anywhere and is extremely important to the whole equation. Have a good defense wipes out mistakes on offense (your going to see that this year when our defense is doing that for Fitzpatrick) - And now healthy games against healthy games....you can see that Fitz numbers are better (by the way...I am a Dalton fan. It has been difficult for me to make this arguement because I AM a Dalton fan. I did not necessarily agree with the Williams pick with Dalton on the board because I truly do believe that Andy could have been Fitzpatricks successor here......but the bills felt that fixing their defense was paramount and Aaron Williams is a very good DB talent who will probably be starting opposite Gilmore...it is very hard to find that combonation in a corner of size and speed and now we have bookend corners who are 6' tall....over 200 pounds.....and hit like trucks.
San-O Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) There are always going to be people who defend whoever the Bills QB is, regardless of performance or production. o Some were all into RJ, who if only had an O line and corrected his sack problem was the real deal. I bit some on that one. o Some were all exited about JP, who had a few good games throwing the ball downfield to Evans for nice TDs. o Some were all exited about TE, who also had a nice stretch to start a season, and looked promising. I thought he was going to make it. For a short time. o Now Fitz is the guy under center, and again there are those diehard supporters. I think anyone can have a good series of games in the NFL, until D coordinators figure them out and take away what they do well. Fitz has shown he can be an "upper echelon" QB for a few games, and that's about it. He was absolutely brutal in many games last year, insert plausible reason here, and needs to show he can be at least a reasonable NFL QB for an entire season, or I'm drafting a QB very high. IMO. FWIW: I do think Fitz can have success, by throwing much less and an O that runs much more, but Gailey seems to be averse to this from what I have seen. Edited July 19, 2012 by SoCal-Surf
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