Can Fitzpatrick be an upper echelon QB?

[Orton's Arm]

I personally think he does have to be. As much hype as there is about our defense, they haven't proven anything on the field. I find it hard to assume they're going to be a top 5 overall defense right off the bat. Our offense has some good pieces but we really are still missing a solid LT (expect glenn to struggle in spots as a rookie) and a #2 WR. Fitz is going to have to play like a top 5 QB at some point if this team is going to win a SB.

Agreed.

 

It's also worth noting that in Trent Edwards' best season, he started 14 games and averaged 7.2 yards per pass attempt. In Fitz's best season, he averaged 6.8 yards per pass attempt.

 

A franchise QB needs to have a career average of at least 7.2 - 7.4 yards per attempt. Edwards' career average is 6.5 yards per attempt, meaning he's well below franchise level (obviously).

 

I'll grant that in the second half of last season, injuries to other players--and perhaps to Fitz himself--lowered his yards per attempt. But in the first half of the season, Fitz went up against some extremely poor pass defenses. Defenses which were clearly unprepared for the new style of offense Gailey had unveiled. If the numbers for the second half of 2011 understate the quality of Fitz's play, the numbers for the first half of the season overstate it.

 

Relatively early in the 2011 season, Fitz went up against the Bengals. That was before most of the injuries to Buffalo's offense happened, and before the (alleged) injury to Fitz occurred. The Bengals defense was prepared for Gailey's new style of offense. Fitz had a bad game that day. That game is a harbinger of things to come--unless Fitz substantially improves the level of his play.

 

Nine of the last ten Super Bowls were won by teams with franchise QBs. Fitz is a long way from being The Guy right now, and probably needs to become The Guy if the Bills are to get a Super Bowl win. If Fitz became a much more accurate passer than he is right now, he'd become The Guy.

[SactoBillFan]

I've had that thought myself about sniffmypaint

[BillsVet]

According to Lee, his mechanics are a flaw. For his career thus far, his mechanics have been bad. Post all the numbers you want, but it doesn't change the facts.

 

 

Let's see. He helped Tony Romo improve and become a starter. He helped Eli Manning cut down on interceptions and bad throws. Fitzpatrick has said these things about Lee so far:

 

"I knew I had a long way to go with my mechanics. I just didn't know how to find that person or how to improve at it."

 

"Nobody's really ever taught me how to do it," Fitzpatrick said. "So now for a guy to come in and say, 'This is why you're missing that throw,' he's going to be a very big help for me this year."

 

Lee's impressed by how quickly Fitzpatrick adjusted his throwing motion to hit a receiver's back shoulder -- something Fitzpatrick had been inconsistent with. By opening his left hip, Fitzpatrick has also been more accurate in completing deep passes to his left -- something most right-handed quarterbacks struggle with.

 

You can rip on Lee's 38 years of coaching experience, but I'll assume he's been coaching this long because he's good at it. I'll also take Ryan Fitzpatrick's word over that of an armchair internet warrior. Thus far it pretty much has been fish meeting said barrel as eball said.

 

How is it that a guy goes 7 seasons in the NFL and only now realizes he has bad mechanics? Did he have any coaches, especially the "esteemed" George Cortez these past 2 seasons?

 

Buffalo's offense is built around the short passing game, as the receivers aren't deep threats, the QB doesn't have a plus arm and the OL is built more for run blocking the pass pro. I will never forget the Giants game and seeing Fitz toss 2 INT's on passes beyond 20 yards. His accuracy downfield was among the NFL's worst, which is something I don't see changing. There just aren't many NFL QB's who magically improve in their 8th season.

 

Beginning with the Bengals loss, Buffalo got figured out offensively. For the record it took 3.5 games: jam the receivers, disrupt their route running, and Buffalo's offense ground to a halt. Those first 3 games were more the exception that the rule scoring wise for the 2011 season, in large part to Fitz's physical limitations. And David Lee can't fix that.

[reddogblitz]

His accuracy downfield was among the NFL's worst, which is something I don't see changing.

You aren't one of the ones who last year at this time was saying Fitz would never have a completion percentage over 60% are you?

[hondo in seattle]

It'd be nice if you spoke from somewhere other than your backside.

 

Gailey, as OC of Pittsburgh Steelers, 1996: 477 pass attempts, 525 rushes

Gailey, as OC of Pittsburgh Steelers, 1997: 486 pass attempts, 572 rushes

Gailey, as HC of Dallas Cowboys, 1998: 493 pass attempts, 499 rushes

Gailey, as HC of Dallas Cowboys, 1999: 531 pass attempts, 491 rushes

Gailey, as OC of Miami Dolphins, 2000: 449 pass attempts, 496 rushes

Gailey, as OC of Miami Dolphins, 2001: 480 pass attempts, 473 rushes

 

So, for those of you scoring at home (or even if you're alone), that puts the "stubborn, pass-happy, can't play to his team's strengths" Gailey at 2916 passing attempts and 3056 rushing attempts in his pre-Buffalo NFL career as an OC or HC.

 

Try again, house painter. Let's see what Gailey does on a team with some actual talent (and a defense) this year.

 

Why are you confusing the issue with facts????

 

Fitz did not get better last season. That is a complete lie. What games were you watching? 2011 was a repeat of 2010, good starts and dreadful finishes, just more of the same, dude has under a 70 QB rating for his career in November and December. He is not a very good starting NFL QB.

 

It's a team game. The Bills averaged 28 points a game for the first 7 contests of the season. Then the wheels came off the wagon due to all sorts of reasons beyond Fitz's 'noodle arm.' 28 ppg compares favorably to the Kelly led K-Gun Super Bowl Bills.

 

I am NOT saying Fitz is as good as Kelly. I am saying that this offense can be productive enough to win with Fitz at the helm.

[Rocky Landing]

How is it that a guy goes 7 seasons in the NFL and only now realizes he has bad mechanics? Did he have any coaches, especially the "esteemed" George Cortez these past 2 seasons?

 

Buffalo's offense is built around the short passing game, as the receivers aren't deep threats, the QB doesn't have a plus arm and the OL is built more for run blocking the pass pro. I will never forget the Giants game and seeing Fitz toss 2 INT's on passes beyond 20 yards. His accuracy downfield was among the NFL's worst, which is something I don't see changing. There just aren't many NFL QB's who magically improve in their 8th season.

 

Beginning with the Bengals loss, Buffalo got figured out offensively. For the record it took 3.5 games: jam the receivers, disrupt their route running, and Buffalo's offense ground to a halt. Those first 3 games were more the exception that the rule scoring wise for the 2011 season, in large part to Fitz's physical limitations. And David Lee can't fix that.

Just to be clear:

You are saying that when Lee and Fitzpatrick, during interviews, have stated that his mechanics and accuracy have improved dramatically this offseason, they are-

a) pandering to the media

b) lying

c) delusional

d) mistaken (they're well-meaning, they just don't have the expertise that you possess, and your opinion should bear more weight).

[San-O]

Just to be clear:

You are saying that when Lee and Fitzpatrick, during interviews, have stated that his mechanics and accuracy have improved dramatically this offseason, they are-

a) pandering to the media

b) lying

c) delusional

d) mistaken (they're well-meaning, they just don't have the expertise that you possess, and your opinion should bear more weight).

 

 

Well then, if a QB coach says his mechanics and accuracy have improved dramatically, and the QB says his mechanics and accuracy have improved dramatically, then everything is going to be fine.

 

By the way, I would say a combination of C and D.

 

Seriously, I hope this is the case, but come on. Who doesn't get better and improve and look great in the off season. Or at least

say the have.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

And of the top 3 receivers, they missed a total of 3 games (Chandler 2, Nelson 1). Thats the same number of games that the Bengals receivers missed (Gresham 2, Green 1).

Your analysis is way too superficial here. Teams routinely use 4 receivers in 50% of plays from scrimmage.

 

From the beginning of training camp, the Bills traded away Lee Evans, then lost Marcus Easley, Donald Jones, and Roscoe Parrish to injuries. Roosevelt went down.

 

During the second half of the season they were using a 2nd year running back (Spiller) and their wildcat quarterback (Brad Smith) as their 3rd and 4th receivers. Hagan and Aiken were pressed into service.

 

The wide receiver situation in Buffalo and Cincinnati couldn't have been more different.

 

Where do you come up with this crap? Lee was the OC at Ole Miss for ONE year, 2011. Snead was undrafted in 2010.

 

I can't figure out if you're yanking our chains, or really this much of a dolt.

I'm gonna go with "B"

 

 

[eball]

How is it that a guy goes 7 seasons in the NFL and only now realizes he has bad mechanics? Did he have any coaches, especially the "esteemed" George Cortez these past 2 seasons?

 

Buffalo's offense is built around the short passing game, as the receivers aren't deep threats, the QB doesn't have a plus arm and the OL is built more for run blocking the pass pro. I will never forget the Giants game and seeing Fitz toss 2 INT's on passes beyond 20 yards. His accuracy downfield was among the NFL's worst, which is something I don't see changing. There just aren't many NFL QB's who magically improve in their 8th season.

 

Beginning with the Bengals loss, Buffalo got figured out offensively. For the record it took 3.5 games: jam the receivers, disrupt their route running, and Buffalo's offense ground to a halt. Those first 3 games were more the exception that the rule scoring wise for the 2011 season, in large part to Fitz's physical limitations. And David Lee can't fix that.

I see you've got it all figured out, as usual. I guess nobody needs to pay attention to training camp or the games since the "esteemed" BillsVet has determined Fitz is incapable of playing at a high level. Case closed. When does hockey season start?

[machine gun kelly]

I'm concerned as well as the Cincy game exposed the flaws of the offense. I know we will have a better running game and expect a better line to create holes. My fingers are crossed the o line additions will create more time to pass. We may have not been sacked often last year, but that's only because Chan drew up short passing routes.

 

If the line gives Fitz 1-2 seconds more we can pass more in deeper routes which allows Fred larger holes.

 

The other factor is we were in one of the worst field positions in the league due to such a bad defense. We give Chan a shorter field to work from calling plays, we should get better. I'm optimistic, but certainly not a lock we will be tons better. I don't think I've ever been more uncertain where we could go from 7-9 to 12-4. In years past, we all knew they sucked. Now I'm just hoping Chan is as good as I think he is as an innovator.

 

Go Bills!

[Billsrhody]

Your analysis is way too superficial here. Teams routinely use 4 receivers in 50% of plays from scrimmage.

 

From the beginning of training camp, the Bills traded away Lee Evans, then lost Marcus Easley, Donald Jones, and Roscoe Parrish to injuries. Roosevelt went down.

 

During the second half of the season they were using a 2nd year running back (Spiller) and their wildcat quarterback (Brad Smith) as their 3rd and 4th receivers. Hagan and Aiken were pressed into service.

 

The wide receiver situation in Buffalo and Cincinnati couldn't have been more different.

 

The reason I only used the top 3 receivers on both teams is because usually the difference between the 4th and 6th receiver on a team is pretty insignificant. Like you said, the 4-6th receiver on the bills roster didnt account for much. Likewise, the 4-6th receiver on the bengals roster did not either. For example I could do the same thin you just did with the bengals team. Andre Caldwell and Andrew Hawkins, the 4th and 5th receivers for the Bengals, each missed 3 games last year due to injury. In any case, The bills top 3 receiving targets were on the field for the whole season in buffalo, just like the bengals top 3 receivers were.

 

You're missing the point anyways. What if I put it this way.. Would you trade all of the Bills weapons right now for all of the bengals weapons? (WR, TE, RB)

[San Jose Bills Fan]

The reason I only used the top 3 receivers on both teams is because usually the difference between the 4th and 6th receiver on a team is pretty insignificant. Like you said, the 4-6th receiver on the bills roster didnt account for much. Likewise, the 4-6th receiver on the bengals roster did not either. For example I could do the same thin you just did with the bengals team. Andre Caldwell and Andrew Hawkins, the 4th and 5th receivers for the Bengals, each missed 3 games last year due to injury. In any case, The bills top 3 receiving targets were on the field for the whole season in buffalo, just like the bengals top 3 receivers were.

 

You're missing the point anyways. What if I put it this way.. Would you trade all of the Bills weapons right now for all of the bengals weapons? (WR, TE, RB)

My point is that it's important to have continuity in your wide receiver corps and when you have a revolving door at the 3rd and 4th receiver spots (which teams use roughly half the time), that continuity and chemistry evaporates.

 

The QBs and receivers are not familiar with each other and those two spots are rendered practically useless.

 

Fitz was throwing to guys who had been on the practice squad the week before, playing scout team and catching passes from Tyler Thigpen.

 

To equate the loss of Caldwell and Hawkins for 3 games each is nowhere near equivalent to the magnitude of man/games lost that the Bills suffered.

 

The two situations are very different. That is my point.

 

 

[Captain Hindsight]

My point is that it's important to have continuity in your wide receiver corps and when you have a revolving door at the 3rd and 4th receiver spots (which teams use roughly half the time), that continuity and chemistry evaporates.

 

The QBs and receivers are not familiar with each other and those two spots are rendered practically useless.

 

Fitz was throwing to guys who had been on the practice squad the week before, playing scout team and catching passes from Tyler Thigpen.

 

To equate the loss of Caldwell and Hawkins for 3 games each is nowhere near equivalent to the magnitude of man/games lost that the Bills suffered.

 

The two situations are very different. That is my point.

The other thing people forget about that Bengals team is they made the playoffs two years ago. That wasnt a bad team. They had some much go wrong with Palmer, TO and Ochostinko that they fell apart. But that was a very talented team before Dalton and Green got there

[paintmyhouse]

The other thing people forget about that Bengals team is they made the playoffs two years ago. That wasnt a bad team. They had some much go wrong with Palmer, TO and Ochostinko that they fell apart. But that was a very talented team before Dalton and Green got there

Correct, that talented team made the playoffs when they dumped Fitzpatrick and returned back to having a guy returning from season ending injusry at QB who had no interest in being there, that is how little a crap franchise like the Bengals thought of Fitzpatrick. Warranted thought too, he sucked for them when he got a chance to play.

Edited July 20, 2012 by paintmyhouse

[You herd it hear last]

Correct, that talented team made the playoffs when they dumped Fitzpatrick and returned back to having a guy returning from season ending injusry at QB who had no interest in being there, that is how little a crap franchise like the Bengals thought of Fitzpatrick. Warranted thought too, he sucked for them when he got a chance to play.

take a pamprin or something, DB

[Luxy312]

Just to be clear:

You are saying that when Lee and Fitzpatrick, during interviews, have stated that his mechanics and accuracy have improved dramatically this offseason, they are-

a) pandering to the media

b) lying

c) delusional

d) mistaken (they're well-meaning, they just don't have the expertise that you possess, and your opinion should bear more weight).

 

The entire Bills team could say that Fitzpatrick has improved and it wouldn't matter to some of these guys. They're just a bunch of "Debbie Doomsayers". There's always an excuse. Honestly, I'm not sure why they bother with the optimism that is shared by many in the offseason. It would be much easier if they just curled up into a ball in a dark corner and waited for another disappointing season to start.

[eball]

For those suggesting defenses "figured the Bills' offense out" beginning in Cinci, I'd only like to point out that six of the nine defenses the Bills faced after the bye finished in the top half of the league, statistically. Of the three that didn't, the Bills put up 386 yards against Tennessee, 351 against Denver, and 402 against the Pats*.

 

Additionally, by far the worst stretch of games the offense had last season were the three immediately following Fitz's "alleged" rib injury -- 287, 271, and 245 against the Jets, Cowboys, and Fish (when Freddy went down).

 

In four of the final six games of 2011, the Bills put up offensive numbers exceeding their per-game average for the season.

[Rocky Landing]

For those suggesting defenses "figured the Bills' offense out" beginning in Cinci, I'd only like to point out that six of the nine defenses the Bills faced after the bye finished in the top half of the league, statistically. Of the three that didn't, the Bills put up 386 yards against Tennessee, 351 against Denver, and 402 against the Pats*.

 

Additionally, by far the worst stretch of games the offense had last season were the three immediately following Fitz's "alleged" rib injury -- 287, 271, and 245 against the Jets, Cowboys, and Fish (when Freddy went down).

 

In four of the final six games of 2011, the Bills put up offensive numbers exceeding their per-game average for the season.

I think a lot of this debate comes down to what you are willing to believe:

-Was Fitz's rib injury part of the reason for his decline in the second half of the season?

-Were the injuries to the front line, WRs, Jackson, et al, part of the reason for Fitz's decline?

-Can the coaching of David Lee improve Fitz's performance?

-Can the improvements in depth and personnel improve Fitz's performance?

-Can Fitz play at the level he did for the first six games last season for the entire 2012 season?

 

If your answer is "yes" to one or more of these questions, then Fitz has the potential to become an "upper echelon QB."

[Captain Hindsight]

Correct, that talented team made the playoffs when they dumped Fitzpatrick and returned back to having a guy returning from season ending injusry at QB who had no interest in being there, that is how little a crap franchise like the Bengals thought of Fitzpatrick. Warranted thought too, he sucked for them when he got a chance to play.

Seriously do you have a hobby besides this? Like even something other to add to this board besides Fitz sucks? We get it. People like you make this place unreadable and drive away great posters. At first I thought you were someone using a different handle, but this drivel you continue to shove down TBD's throat has gone way past someone trying to be funny. Its just wasting bandwidth.

 

For those suggesting defenses "figured the Bills' offense out" beginning in Cinci, I'd only like to point out that six of the nine defenses the Bills faced after the bye finished in the top half of the league, statistically. Of the three that didn't, the Bills put up 386 yards against Tennessee, 351 against Denver, and 402 against the Pats*.

 

Additionally, by far the worst stretch of games the offense had last season were the three immediately following Fitz's "alleged" rib injury -- 287, 271, and 245 against the Jets, Cowboys, and Fish (when Freddy went down).

 

In four of the final six games of 2011, the Bills put up offensive numbers exceeding their per-game average for the season.

Good point eball. The cowboys game was over the min we stepped on the field. That was just a classic beatdown game in every since of the word

[Billsrhody]

My point is that it's important to have continuity in your wide receiver corps and when you have a revolving door at the 3rd and 4th receiver spots (which teams use roughly half the time), that continuity and chemistry evaporates.

 

The QBs and receivers are not familiar with each other and those two spots are rendered practically useless.

 

Fitz was throwing to guys who had been on the practice squad the week before, playing scout team and catching passes from Tyler Thigpen.

 

To equate the loss of Caldwell and Hawkins for 3 games each is nowhere near equivalent to the magnitude of man/games lost that the Bills suffered.

 

The two situations are very different. That is my point.

 

So if the 4th receiving option is on the field 50% of the time (I think that number is high by the way), the quaterback probably only throws to them about 5% of the plays that they're on the field. That makes their impact in the offense around 2.5%. Very insignificant if you ask me.

 

The truth is, the 4th receiving option on a team means very little in determining the outcome of the game. I bet you can't think of more than 4 4th receiving options of all the 32 NFL teams (RBs dont count). There's a reason for that... they dont matter. What you're doing right now is nitpicking.

 

 

The other thing people forget about that Bengals team is they made the playoffs two years ago. That wasnt a bad team. They had some much go wrong with Palmer, TO and Ochostinko that they fell apart. But that was a very talented team before Dalton and Green got there

 

I dont think you can ignore the fact that they went 4-12 the next year. You conveniently left that out of the post. Also they lost TO, Ocho, Palmer, their starting RG and RT and their 3rd receiver. If you're keeping score, thats 6 key offensive positions that changed. That was not a talented offensive team before Dalton and Green arrived last year.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Billsrhody