Is Vince Young a wacko or just a player that needs coaching?

[caracara]

As a result, Vince has struggled, finally getting the "stand on your own" experience that everyone gets thrust into as a young adult while also having the added pressure of being a starting NFL QB and top-5 draft pick.

 

Bluefire, I think that's a very fair take, and add to that the confusion that VY must have felt when he landed into the middle of a feud between an unpopular owner and very popular coach who didn't want to draft him.

[sllib olaffub]

I will say this, Vince Young needs to play well and be a less controversial player. If he fails in Buffalo,he could be done.

 

That kind of player is a dying breed, teams don't want the headache anymore.

 

Other than some remote chance at the fans becoming split on who they'd like to see at QB, picking up Vince Young was virtually no risk, all reward for the Buffalo Bills. They aren't paying him a lot. He was once, not long ago - and recently enough to think that he still has all the good attributes at his disposal - an exciting, dynamic QB, in the mold of a Cam Newton. Now, Vince's intelligence has been widely discussed, and we know he isn't as smart, or mentally quick as Newton, nor is he as great an athlete, but he is a very good athlete (probably top 5 in NFL for athletic QB's) and he passes nicely. If Gailey can install an offense to suite Vince's strengths, as well as be complex enough to make it difficult for defenses, then Vince can surely be successful.

 

As for the emotional, or mental issues - we fans should really not get too confident about diagnosing, or attributing labels to players in that type of situation. We've likely never been in the national spotlight, nor have we grown up in their shoes, the whole ride to the NFL is foreign to us. I can imagine a guy like Vince Young might easily have a hard time telling if he has any real friends, or if he can trust anyone to talk to about very personal things, and I can imagine it'd be hard for him to admit any vulnerability in the form of insecurity or dysfunction - after all, he's supposed to be a rich, iconic, model citizen, team leader. If he didn't grow up in an environment where money was around, not being accustomed to having money can lead to losing money - and that can happen rather quickly. There are just a lot of things that we don't know about, and I feel it is borderline indecent of us, as fans, to probe and judge this young man's personal life like that - as long as he contributes while he is here, and is a positive influence on the team.

 

And, I've got to think, being who he is, where he's from, this has got to be seen as an attempt to come back - to prove people wrong. I doubt he's planning on just standing around with a "yes, sir" attitude, and draw interest from the sideline. It's a one year deal. He must be thinking he can take this team to the playoffs if he is given the chance, and if he isn't, and Fitz plays well, and Vince is positive, he'll likely get another shot next year. So, it's all good.

Edited July 12, 2012 by sllib olaffub

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I didn't say anything about the mayor of Nashville. I have said that Fisher called the Nashville cops and told them Vince was possibly suicidal, and then later Fisher's office leaked it to the press. I have said what everyone knows. Jeff Fisher didn't want Vince. Owner Bud Adams insisted on VY being picked, and later Adams insisted that Vince start when Fisher's choice Kerry Collins was 0-6 and the Titans were coming off a 59-0 drubbing by NE. The fact that Vince went out and won 8 of 10 and probably saved Fisher's job only made Fisher more bitter. I've said that after Texas beat USC in the national championship Vince had the misfortune of being drafted to a team where the head coach was a USC grad and the OC was a former USC coach, and neither wanted him. All of Vince's "bad behavior" happened around Nashville. There has been none before and none since. When Fisher benched Vince the last time, Vince was rocking a 98.5 passer rating. Fisher finished out the season with Rusty Smith, losing.

 

And in any NFL city there will be cops who will love to buddy up to the HC, just like you would, and they will do him favors. And Fisher has many, many influential friends in the NFL. I've said that Vince was drafted into a bad situation, and still won a bunch of games as QB.

Now I'm saying that Vince isn't wacko or a terminal head case. You have never seen video evidence of Vince being disrespectful to coaches, teammates or opponents. He's a good guy.

 

About a year ago, I was talking with a friend about some crap that had gone down for me at work. I expressed my side of the story along with the viewpoint that it was unfair, and how.

 

He agreed: yep, unfair. Life's unfair. And somehow, someway, I had to figure out a way to put it down and move on.

 

Suggestion, Caracara: Put it down, and move on.

 

My granny used to say, "Never explain. Your friends won't ask you. And your enemies won't care"

[caracara]

 

Suggestion, Caracara: Put it down, and move on.

 

My granny used to say, "Never explain. Your friends won't ask you. And your enemies won't care"

 

 

Spot on, Hopeful. Truer words have never been spoken. or as Parcells might say "I don't wanna hear about the pain. Show me the baby."

 

In my own life I try to overcome stuff a lot more than I B word about stuff. I just reserve the right to defend VY against message board haters. You've never heard VY B word about Fisher, Hoge or anyone else mistreating him. Well I'm a VY fan. I'll stand up for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnt0XPxu020

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Spot on, Hopeful. Truer words have never been spoken. or as Parcells might say "I don't wanna hear about the pain. Show me the baby."

 

In my own life I try to overcome stuff a lot more than I B word about stuff. I just reserve the right to defend VY against message board haters. You've never heard VY B word about Fisher, Hoge or anyone else mistreating him. Well I'm a VY fan. I'll stand up for him.

 

It's great that VY has such a loyal fan.

 

It's great to consider whether too fervent partisanship can have opposite to the intended effect

 

I'm good with "young man, coulda handled stuff better, media loves to puff up any conflict or controversy, has a chance now in B'lo, let's hope he makes good!"

Edited July 13, 2012 by Hopeful

[caracara]

 

It's great that VY has such a loyal fan.

 

It's great to consider whether too fervent partisanship can have opposite to the intended effect

 

I'm good with "young man, coulda handled stuff better, media loves to puff up any conflict or controversy, has a chance now in B'lo, let's hope he makes good!"

 

He was/is a young man. He could have handled things better. He ended his stay at Tenn by cussing the coach and walking out on a team meeting. I can understand the emotion involved, but there is no excuse for that. He apologized to coach and team. I predict you will never see anything like that from VY again. There are some NFL veteran coaches and media who could have handled things more professionally. They will never admit any mistakes.

 

but we're in the same camp, hopeful. we both want the same thing going forward. cheers. Let's Go Buffalo!

[BuffBill]

Lol, I clearly stated in this thread that Vince Young might not be on the team after training camp. Hardly a nomination for the wall.

I wasn't talking about you or for that matter VY either. Just kinda in general they way people jump on a players bandwagon so quickly (Jasper, etc.) before they have ever really done anything with a Buffalo on their helmet.

[HOUSE]

I wasn't talking about you or for that matter VY either. Just kinda in general they way people jump on a players bandwagon so quickly (Jasper, etc.) before they have ever really done anything with a Buffalo on their helmet.

 

I stand corrected

[Hplarrm]

Other than some remote chance at the fans becoming split on who they'd like to see at QB, picking up Vince Young was virtually no risk, all reward for the Buffalo Bills. They aren't paying him a lot. He was once, not long ago - and recently enough to think that he still has all the good attributes at his disposal - an exciting, dynamic QB, in the mold of a Cam Newton. Now, Vince's intelligence has been widely discussed, and we know he isn't as smart, or mentally quick as Newton, nor is he as great an athlete, but he is a very good athlete (probably top 5 in NFL for athletic QB's) and he passes nicely. If Gailey can install an offense to suite Vince's strengths, as well as be complex enough to make it difficult for defenses, then Vince can surely be successful.

 

As for the emotional, or mental issues - we fans should really not get too confident about diagnosing, or attributing labels to players in that type of situation. We've likely never been in the national spotlight, nor have we grown up in their shoes, the whole ride to the NFL is foreign to us. I can imagine a guy like Vince Young might easily have a hard time telling if he has any real friends, or if he can trust anyone to talk to about very personal things, and I can imagine it'd be hard for him to admit any vulnerability in the form of insecurity or dysfunction - after all, he's supposed to be a rich, iconic, model citizen, team leader. If he didn't grow up in an environment where money was around, not being accustomed to having money can lead to losing money - and that can happen rather quickly. There are just a lot of things that we don't know about, and I feel it is borderline indecent of us, as fans, to probe and judge this young man's personal life like that - as long as he contributes while he is here, and is a positive influence on the team.

 

And, I've got to think, being who he is, where he's from, this has got to be seen as an attempt to come back - to prove people wrong. I doubt he's planning on just standing around with a "yes, sir" attitude, and draw interest from the sideline. It's a one year deal. He must be thinking he can take this team to the playoffs if he is given the chance, and if he isn't, and Fitz plays well, and Vince is positive, he'll likely get another shot next year. So, it's all good.

I also agree thst your perspective on this is spot on.

 

Many folks (some of whom are professionals as they have found away to get paid for their blather) complerely misread NFL football situations.

 

We saw this directly in how many folks completely misread the Terrel Owens contract with the Bills. Owens and VY are completely different situations (actually to VY's advantage in terms of judgments outside observers make about him as in TOs case he had developed a rep as a potential team cancer seeminly driven by his own self-promotional desire, while VY also is developing a rep as a potential cancer but this may be due not to simply ego but a suggested (by non-professionals) psychiatric disorder which made Fisher and others worry he might take his own life).

 

At any rate, the one year contract at an incredibly low wage is the key for the Bills (again to the advantage of the Bills dealing with VY as his contract is insanely low for a former Pro Bowler (while TO's compensation was also low for a player of his real world accomplishments they still were orders of magnitude higher than the stake th Bills have put up for VY).

 

The football ignorance shown by some alleged experts is that they do not seem to realize that before a player can divide a team, he MUST gain the adulation and worship of half the team or its fans.

 

A player can only become a cancer after he demonstrates a year of production. If he sucks right away there is no cancer because everyone agrees that this player can easily be gotten rid of with little harm to the team.

 

It was clear to any intelligent observer that TO or VY is going to have to fly right for his first year or its no issue for any of us.

 

The VY contract is so good for the Bills in that we had to put up relatively little money for a player who likely will sit on the bench anyway (unless our plan A Fitzy goes south in his play or gets hurt) and the most difficult problem for us happens only if he performs so well for the Bills that an issue is created NEXT YEAR as to whether we resign him or not.

 

Gailey is running an offense which MAY be perfect for us if someone with the talents demonstrated so far in his brief career as he gives us not only a back-up QB with previous NFL achievement but he provides a different threat than we normally do if he is our Wildcat QB

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Gailey is running an offense which MAY be perfect for us if someone with the talents demonstrated so far in his brief career as he gives us not only a back-up QB with previous NFL achievement but he provides a different threat than we normally do if he is our Wildcat QB

 

I'm having difficulty parsing this sentence, but I believe you hypothesized part of VY's role would be wildcat QB. Gailey has explicitly said VY will not be running the wildcat on more than one occasion.

 

As for the overall offense Gailey has built for the Bills, I must respectfully disagree that it is perfect for the talents VY has so far demonstrated. It is relatively complex and depends upon the QB to make pre-snap reads and adjustments, as well as upon the QB and receivers to be on the same page about the role each receiver is playing and the route variant to be run. I hope VY can grasp it, but last year in Philly doesn't make this a sure bet - if it was, he'd likely still be donning a helmet with wingy-dings on the sides.

[Cynical]

I also agree thst your perspective on this is spot on.

 

Many folks (some of whom are professionals as they have found away to get paid for their blather) complerely misread NFL football situations.

 

We saw this directly in how many folks completely misread the Terrel Owens contract with the Bills. Owens and VY are completely different situations (actually to VY's advantage in terms of judgments outside observers make about him as in TOs case he had developed a rep as a potential team cancer seeminly driven by his own self-promotional desire, while VY also is developing a rep as a potential cancer but this may be due not to simply ego but a suggested (by non-professionals) psychiatric disorder which made Fisher and others worry he might take his own life).

 

FYI: The Titans called in a psychologist that met Vince at his home after Vince went missing after one of his tantrums.

Teams do not get psychologists involved just so they can "smear" a player.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Teams do not get psychologists involved just so they can "smear" a player.

Why do you call yourself cynical?

 

This take is very uncynical…

 

 

[caracara]

FYI: The Titans called in a psychologist that met Vince at his home after Vince went missing after one of his tantrums.

Teams do not get psychologists involved just so they can "smear" a player.

And that psychologist completely cleared VY of being a suicide risk.

 

Cynical, obviously Vince hates to even talk about it, but he has said repeatedly that he never considered suicide. Can't that be enough for you?

Plenty of teams have psychologists on staff. Plenty of football players have talked to shrinks and counselors. Not many rookies have had a prominent talking-head on ESPN spewing blatant lies about them.

His problems in Tennessee were of a situational nature. That will continue to be proven as he goes along. He has not had any difficulties before or since.

Edited July 14, 2012 by caracara

[Sisyphean Bills]

And that psychologist completely cleared VY of being a suicide risk.

 

Cynical, obviously Vince hates to even talk about it, but he has said repeatedly that he never considered suicide. Can't that be enough for you?

Plenty of teams have psychologists on staff. Plenty of football players have talked to shrinks and counselors. Not many rookies have had a prominent talking-head on ESPN spewing blatant lies about them.

His problems in Tennessee were of a situational nature. That will continue to be proven as he goes along. He has not had any difficulties before or since.

I get it that you are referring to off-the-field issues, but you are also comparing 1 strike shortened "year" with the Eagles to 5 years of shenanigans (blame whoever you want) with the Titans. Since he was clearly never anything but a backup in Philadelphia, he wasn't really a point of emphasis from the beginning. Though, it should be clear that his flickering brief employ there really is not a comparable sampling to draw very strong conclusions.

 

On the field, he has certainly had his troubles. "Before" is irrelevant in terms of an NFL conversation; plenty of college football players fail to translate success at the NCAA level to the NFL. With a QB rating (73rd overall) that put him in the company of Charlie Whitehurst and Tyler Palko, it's clear he wasn't terribly effective in the Eagles offense. Despite his "dream team" comments, the Eagles had a unexpectedly disappointing season.

 

I do hope you are right and VY can get his act together. There is no question he has immense physical talent. When he first got to the NFL, he boasted that he had nothing to learn. Apparently he had mastered the Titans playbook before he had finishing shaking Goodell's hand at the podium. Comments like "I don’t know when I’ll start again. But I will be the next black quarterback to win a Super Bowl. And I will be in the Hall of Fame," don't really exude a sense of humility.

[Fan in San Diego]

Life is about getting fresh starts and making the most of them. VY has a fresh start here, lets hope he makes the most of it.

[Cynical]

And that psychologist completely cleared VY of being a suicide risk.

 

Cynical, obviously Vince hates to even talk about it, but he has said repeatedly that he never considered suicide. Can't that be enough for you?

Plenty of teams have psychologists on staff. Plenty of football players have talked to shrinks and counselors. Not many rookies have had a prominent talking-head on ESPN spewing blatant lies about them.

His problems in Tennessee were of a situational nature. That will continue to be proven as he goes along. He has not had any difficulties before or since.

 

Let's get some things straight. I do not hate Vince Young. I was against the signing of Vince Young. However it is the same rationale I would use if the Bills were interested in acquiring somebody like P. Harvin from Minny.

 

Harvin has issues surrounding him. If by some weird chance Harvin would suddenly become available, I hope and wish the Bills do not spend the energy and resources trying to acquire him. Let some other team figure out if those issues are isolated and/or have been put behind him. Let that be another team's "problem" to sort out.

 

Vince Young has baggage. That baggage is a history of issues that cause a distraction. I was against the signing of Vince Young because of this baggage. Let some other team figure out if Vince's issues were isolated and/or are behind him.

 

Which bring's me to this point. I, like 99% of the others that frequent here, are fans of the Buffalo Bills. We may squabble, and we may disagree on numerous issues, but we all desire the same thing. We want to see our team raise the Lombardi Trophy at the end of the SB.

 

As fans, we will discuss a lot of things, especially players. Those topics will include all aspects of the player - on field, off field, positive and negative.

 

Vince Young is now a member of the Buffalo Bills. His past issues will be discussed because that is a part of who he is, rightfully or wrongfully.

Accept it. It's not going to go away.

 

You, on the other hand, are a fan of Vince Young. You have stated this openly and with honesty. I commend you that.

Vince Young does not need you defending him on this board with posts of conspiracy and smear agendas.

Your attempts at defending VY with such posts are amusing. But that can happen when a person is a fan of the "player" and not of the "team".

 

Vince Young will prove himself, one way or the other, all on his own by his own actions.

 

If by chance, Vince Young is waived by the Bills, you can follow him like a lost puppy dog to his next team, and attempt to convince that fan base that all of his issues are nothing but a smear agenda and conspiracy generated.

 

As for now, since Vince Young is a Bill, I wish him nothing but the best of luck. I hope VY has overcome and moved beyond those issues that have plagued him in the past.

 

I also look forward to TC and the regular season to see if VY can contribute in helping the Bills reach the ultimate goal in whatever capacity he can.

[Dragonborn10]

I think you can fairly judge QB play based on a horrible career. Wins and Losses are team stats; not QB stats. Other than half of one season, two years ago, this guy has been terrible. On and off the field.

I'm sorry were you talking about Fitz or VY???

[caracara]

...Vince Young is now a member of the Buffalo Bills. His past issues will be discussed because that is a part of who he is, rightfully or wrongfully.

Accept it. It's not going to go away. ... for now, since Vince Young is a Bill, I wish him nothing but the best of luck. I hope VY has overcome and moved beyond those issues that have plagued him in the past.

 

So, I will sometimes be here during said discussions to make counter points to the assertions that VY is a head case and a bad signing for the Bills, unless future happenings prove me wrong at which time I'll admit I was wrong.

At this time VY has shown that he has moved beyond the issues we're discussing on this thread, and I'm thrilled that you wish him the best of luck at least while he's a Bill.

As far as the the "lost puppy" remark goes, it does nothing to advance your arguments, but for a message board warrior such as yourself we'll call it a shot and a score.

 

I do hope you are right and VY can get his act together. There is no question he has immense physical talent. When he first got to the NFL, he boasted that he had nothing to learn. Apparently he had mastered the Titans playbook before he had finishing shaking Goodell's hand at the podium. Comments like "I don’t know when I’ll start again. But I will be the next black quarterback to win a Super Bowl. And I will be in the Hall of Fame," don't really exude a sense of humility.

Sisyphean Bills, I followed VY pretty closely and I don't think he has ever boasted that he had nothing to learn, however I know he did make the HOF and Super Bowl comment. It is true that he had bought too deeply into his own headlines. He has said some dumb stuff, and other quotes have been taken out of context. At any rate he governs his speech pretty closely these days. He isn't humble about what he feels he can do on the field, although he understands that to some extent he has to fake humility. If you sat with him on a plane you would come away liking him. He's very humble in general. He's not an intellectual and he knows it. If you talk to him about football, and you'll see this in interviews, he falls back on speech that almost sounds like self-affirmations which he must constantly repeat to himself in order to deal with some of the crazy and unreasonable hatred that has been directed at him.

I'm pleased that everyone wishes him the best as a Bill. I hope he justifies your hopes and my expectations.

 

Edited July 14, 2012 by caracara

[Hapless Bills Fan]

So, I will sometimes be here during said discussions to make counter points to the assertions that VY is a head case and a bad signing for the Bills, unless future happenings prove me wrong at which time I'll admit I was wrong.

 

"Don't Explain. Your enemies won't believe you and your friends won't care" -Granny Hopeful

Edited July 16, 2012 by Hopeful

[Sisyphean Bills]

Sisyphean Bills, I followed VY pretty closely and I don't think he has ever boasted that he had nothing to learn, however I know he did make the HOF and Super Bowl comment.

Well, you know the typical softball question the media asks rookie QBs when they get to the NFL, right? Invariably they are asked about how much more complex the NFL is, how much of the playbook they have mastered, or something to that effect. Jim Kelly was brashly confident in one such interview and claimed he had mastered the playbook after being with the Bills a few weeks. Similarly, your buddy Vince responded to that line of questioning to the effect that he knew it all, didn't need to be coached, etc. Ryan Leaf was another example of a rookie QB that made outrageously cocky comments. Joey Harrington responded to those questions by saying that Oregon's offense was much more complex than the Lions -- which was funny because it may have been true in some respects. In the Young interview, he actually came off as being pissed that he had to answer questions or that anyone would dare question him.

 

By the way, football is the ultimate team sport in my opinion and that interview was memorable to me and foreshadowing of his career. Successful QBs in the NFL have to realize that the winning formula is about having the best team and not just trying to be the Michael Jordan of the NFL. The old cliche about great players making those around them better is true, though maybe not so simplistic. (No one would say Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or the Manning brothers were the most athletically gifted players on the field for their teams. But few doubt that they are winners.)