Is Vince Young a wacko or just a player that needs coaching?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I haven't judged Thigpen based on preseason performance ... my problem with him is that the coaching staff didn't have the confidance in him to play him the week after the Redskins game ... if your starting QB gets broken ribs you just gotta send out the backup.

 

If the backup can't give the starter a week or two or three to heal what do you need a backup for???

 

IMHO the #2 spot belongs to VY unless he really poops the bed during training camp or preseason.

 

This.

[caracara]

I snorted Pinot Grigio on my keyboard after the first sentence. Ticked me off - it was a decent glass, deserving of consumption. If you'd have stopped after the comma, then we'd all know where we stand.

 

Wins? Yes, but we all know the team wins and loses. Well, we all should know this. Some of us don't get it.

Stats? Um, not exactly. Only if you cherry-pick. Check again.

Experience? In terms of opportunities to start and lead a team, sure. How has he utilized his experience and opportunities? That matters.

Accomplishments? sounds like another term for "team wins"

 

You're a bit too obvious with the sar chasm*** in the 2nd paragraph but I'll take it at face value. No padded room is needed. Wins against Giants and Texans were team wins. The Bills are a team trying to build something. They have yet to be completely successful - they won in the 1st part of the season when the offense played out of its mind and compensated for poor defense, and lost when the offense had some bad games then regressed towards the ordinary. The offense wasn't bad last year. The defense sucked. Let's see what happens with a decent D.

 

And oh yes: I'm pulling for VY to succeed. He's very talented. What I'd really like to know: is VY "all in" to learning the offense and taking advantage of every opportunity he has to do it? Is he all about soaking up whatever he can from Fitz and Gailey? Or is part of him sulking in the shower all "damn it I'm the best QB on this team, no way I should be fighting to be #2" and "I went to the rosebowl, I went to the probowl, wtf has this 7th round draft pick got to show me?"

 

***it was actually a very nice try, except that you're thoroughly outed as a fiercely loyal Vince Young partisan.

 

hopeful, I wasn't "outed." I said I liked VY in my first post, and have made it obvious in every one of my posts since. But I am of the opinion that if he can't beat Thigpen for a spot, then he doesn't deserve to play in the NFL. The stuff about borderline personality disorder and VY being whacko is BS. Mentally weak? He isn't weak in the spotlight. He doesn't doubt himself at all. He expects to win. On the football field he's accomplished a lot more than Fitz, but Fitz has earned the trust of the Bills and the starting job. He did whatever it took to get where he is, beating out the competition. He has the higher IQ and he's a fine young man from a good family. His work ethic has never been questioned and never will be. I wish him the best. I want Fitz to stay healthy and win games. If Vince makes the squad and only gets to showcase his team spirit and solidarity (as i expect he will) I'll be happy with that. I want to see the Bills win. The cherry for me would be if VY helped the Bills get a playoff game in Buffalo.

Hopefully if and when VY makes the squad you'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's a good Buffalo Bill, until he proves otherwise. He hasn't shown any signs of complaining or sulking or pouting in the shower since the press reports out of Tennessee.

And since I've been there myself ( long long long ago, my early 20s) I'll give VY a pass for his dust-up in a titty bar, his one and only brush with the law.

Edited July 12, 2012 by caracara

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Pretty surprised by the seemingly prevalent negativity surrounding Vince Young.

 

People do change, especially younger people.

 

He's a Buffalo Bill now and I'm rooting big time for him to make a positive impact.

 

And yes, Caracara came here with full disclosure right from the beginning.

[HOUSE]

Pretty surprised by the seemingly prevalent negativity surrounding Vince Young.

 

People do change, especially younger people.

 

He's a Buffalo Bill now and I'm rooting big time for him to make a positive impact.

 

And yes, Caracara came here with full disclosure right from the beginning.

 

I didn't realize Vince Young was a sore subject on Buffalo Bills message boards.

Edited July 12, 2012 by HOUSE

[bowery4]

Pretty surprised by the seemingly prevalent negativity surrounding Vince Young.

 

People do change, especially younger people.

 

He's a Buffalo Bill now and I'm rooting big time for him to make a positive impact.

 

And yes, Caracara came here with full disclosure right from the beginning.

I tend to think that even though I did mention my opinion that he may have Borderline personality disorder (BTW, I have no Psychiatric training, just know a bit about this because of an exGF) I do think it is a treatable disorder. I want him to do well as a Bill if he sticks. Also there is at least another NFL player who has it (and I am sure more than one, really).

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-10-25/brandon-marshall-becomes-unlikely-voice-for-boderline-personality-disorder

Edited July 12, 2012 by bowery4

[Hapless Bills Fan]

hopeful, I wasn't "outed." I said I liked VY in my first post, and have made it obvious in every one of my posts since. But I am of the opinion that if he can't beat Thigpen for a spot, then he doesn't deserve to play in the NFL. The stuff about borderline personality disorder and VY being whacko is BS. Mentally weak? He isn't weak in the spotlight. He doesn't doubt himself at all. He expects to win. On the football field he's accomplished a lot more than Fitz, but Fitz has earned the trust of the Bills and the starting job. He did whatever it took to get where he is, beating out the competition. He has the higher IQ and he's a fine young man from a good family. His work ethic has never been questioned and never will be. I wish him the best. I want Fitz to stay healthy and win games. If Vince makes the squad and only gets to showcase his team spirit and solidarity (as i expect he will) I'll be happy with that. I want to see the Bills win. The cherry for me would be if VY helped the Bills get a playoff game in Buffalo.

Hopefully if and when VY makes the squad you'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's a good Buffalo Bill, until he proves otherwise. He hasn't shown any signs of complaining or sulking or pouting in the shower since the press reports out of Tennessee.

And since I've been there myself ( long long long ago, my early 20s) I'll give VY a pass for his dust-up in a titty bar, his one and only brush with the law.

 

Caracara, I was more referring to later posts when you acknowledged that you couldn't be objective about VY, being too much of a homer, or words to that effect. That wasn't intended in any way as a criticism, BTW, more just as a friendly jibe. We're all fans here, or should be, and have players that we're passionate about.

 

I really hate to read armchair psychology-by-distance myself. I agree it's BS. As a general principle I think mental illnesses are health issues and deserve to be kept private and treated privately unless the person involved chooses to disclose details, just like Easley's mysterious medical heart ailment. I don't know how you'd tell the diff, from a distance, between a mental disorder or a passionate, somewhat immature young man with a temper. We've all been where we need to "grow up", most of us just don't have a spotlight on us.

 

I think the "mentally weak" comments (at least from some people) aren't about confidence or self-doubt in the spotlight, but more about mental preparation, understanding the offense and where the receivers will be on every play, making the pre-snap reads and calling the protections right and making the progressions so as to minimize the need to scramble around and improvise. At least, that's my personal concern. I don't think it's an easy job for any QB to master a new offense in less than a year! I don't think anyone questions VY's abilities to improvise productively when necessary. I'm concerned about his ability to minimize the need to improvise, so to speak.

 

Frankly, I think it's too harsh to say if he can't beat Thigpen for a spot he doesn't belong in the NFL. I want VY to beat Thigpen - because I see the potential for a much higher ceiling. I'm one of those who think the coaching staff had a massive vote of no-confidence when they chose to play an obviously-hindered Fitz for 3 games, at times behind a 2nd string OL, instead of turning to Thigpen. I can't help thinking the rest of the season would have gone better for Fitz if he'd had a couple of weeks to heal without DL landing on him 40x a game. On the other hand, none of us knows what role Fitz played in that decision. I'd rather have VY on the bench - but only if the coaching staff has confidence to put him in at need.

 

I'm not sure what Gailey is really looking for. If he wants the QB who's mastered the playbook best then Thig has a leg up on studying as well as history with Chan, and VY may do all the right things and still fall short - and that doesn't mean he shouldn't get a chance elsewhere IMO. I'm really pulling that VY is in fact all in and will pull out all the stops to learn what he needs to learn and stay in the book and the film room as well as soaking up everything that he can from Lee and from Fitz, who by all reports is a pretty good egg about helping.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Hopeful

[Sisyphean Bills]

Buddy Nix picked his guy in free agency so I'm going to wait it out before I access his game. Don't like Thigpen Yet he never made the field either.

Yet oddly enough, Buddy Nix also brought in Thigpen.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I didn't realize Vince Young was a sore subject on Buffalo Bills message boards.

 

Oh, c'mon. It's a message board. Everyone's got an opinion. Until we win, everything is a sore subject. And even if we're winning, one loss and everything is a sore subject.

[HOUSE]

Oh, c'mon. It's a message board. Everyone's got an opinion. Until we win, everything is a sore subject. And even if we're winning, one loss and everything is a sore subject.

 

I am just a little surprised, this is my very first message board. It used to be that players on the Bills roster had to play one game before the fans bashed them.

[Cynical]

I tend to think that even though I did mention my opinion that he may have Borderline personality disorder (BTW, I have no Psychiatric training, just know a bit about this because of an exGF) I do think it is a treatable disorder.

 

It is, but it's not easy.

 

My wife is pretty convinced my present employer is one (the employer is a massive nut job).

(Side note: The wife has a Master in Clinical Psychology, and has been doing assessments and treatments for about 15-20 years)

 

Unlike somebody who is Bi-Polar, there is no pill to help in treatment.

Treatment is strictly up to the clinician to perform, and they are doing it on a person who absolutely believes there is nothing wrong with their behavior, no matter how irrational their behavior can be.

[Cynical]

And yes, Caracara came here with full disclosure right from the beginning.

 

He has also disclosed he "believes" Jeff Fisher, Jeff Fisher's coaching staff, the Titans owner, the Nashville police dept, and the Mayor of Nashville were all involved in some giant conspiracy against VY.

 

Edit: I think he also mentioned the media being part of the conspiracy.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Cynical

[BuffBill]

Everyone grows up eventually.......if Fitz continues to play like himself we will have an answer to this question by week 6.

 

VY is a terrible completion % passer but Fitz ain't much better. IMO bills are loaded QB is the big question mark

I kinda agree with you. Loaded might be a bit too strong until they prove it on the field, but they have made so many major strides. I too think the ultimate downfall of this team is going to be the QB position. We have to hope that Fitz can do in 16 games what he did in 4 or 5 last season. I think Thigpen might just be the worst backup in the NFL based on what he showed last year, and Vince Young is, well, Vince Young. I see us spending our first pick in the 2013 draft on a QB.

 

I am just a little surprised, this is my very first message board. It used to be that players on the Bills roster had to play one game before the fans bashed them.

They used to have to play at least one game for them before they went on the Wall of Fame also?

Edited July 12, 2012 by BuffBill

[caracara]

He has also disclosed he "believes" Jeff Fisher, Jeff Fisher's coaching staff, the Titans owner, the Nashville police dept, and the Mayor of Nashville were all involved in some giant conspiracy against VY.

 

I didn't say anything about the mayor of Nashville. I have said that Fisher called the Nashville cops and told them Vince was possibly suicidal, and then later Fisher's office leaked it to the press. I have said what everyone knows. Jeff Fisher didn't want Vince. Owner Bud Adams insisted on VY being picked, and later Adams insisted that Vince start when Fisher's choice Kerry Collins was 0-6 and the Titans were coming off a 59-0 drubbing by NE. The fact that Vince went out and won 8 of 10 and probably saved Fisher's job only made Fisher more bitter. I've said that after Texas beat USC in the national championship Vince had the misfortune of being drafted to a team where the head coach was a USC grad and the OC was a former USC coach, and neither wanted him. All of Vince's "bad behavior" happened around Nashville. There has been none before and none since. When Fisher benched Vince the last time, Vince was rocking a 98.5 passer rating. Fisher finished out the season with Rusty Smith, losing.

 

And in any NFL city there will be cops who will love to buddy up to the HC, just like you would, and they will do him favors. And Fisher has many, many influential friends in the NFL. I've said that Vince was drafted into a bad situation, and still won a bunch of games as QB.

Now I'm saying that Vince isn't wacko or a terminal head case. You have never seen video evidence of Vince being disrespectful to coaches, teammates or opponents. He's a good guy.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I didn't say anything about the mayor of Nashville. I have said that Fisher called the Nashville cops and told them Vince was possibly suicidal, and then later Fisher's office leaked it to the press. I have said what everyone knows. Jeff Fisher didn't want Vince. Owner Bud Adams insisted on VY being picked, and later Adams insisted that Vince start when Fisher's choice Kerry Collins was 0-6 and the Titans were coming off a 59-0 drubbing by NE. The fact that Vince went out and won 8 of 10 and probably saved Fisher's job only made Fisher more bitter. I've said that after Texas beat USC in the national championship Vince had the misfortune of being drafted to a team where the head coach was a USC grad and the OC was a former USC coach, and neither wanted him. All of Vince's "bad behavior" happened around Nashville. There has been none before and none since. When Fisher benched Vince the last time, Vince was rocking a 98.5 passer rating. Fisher finished out the season with Rusty Smith, losing.

 

And in any NFL city there will be cops who will love to buddy up to the HC, just like you would, and they will do him favors. And Fisher has many, many influential friends in the NFL. I've said that Vince was drafted into a bad situation, and still won a bunch of games as QB.

Now I'm saying that Vince isn't wacko or a terminal head case. You have never seen video evidence of Vince being disrespectful to coaches, teammates or opponents. He's a good guy.

[rickenbru]

The Bill's coaching staff played a struggling QB with a broken rib. I don't know how else to interpret that than an utter lack of confidence in the backups. Therefore the Bills need better backups.

 

No one here seems to be denying VY's talent. And just like you can't teach speed (for the most part), you can't coach physical tools. Either the guy has them or he doesn't. So that's another huge plus for VY. I'll admit that I am excited about VY's potential. Fitzy is the starting QB, as he should be, but VY could be a really nice plan B. If he makes the team, it's because he's a better option than the other backup QBs. Worst case is he increases the level of competition for Thigpen.

 

I personally suffer from mental illness, so I'm not a fan of the loaded term wacko. Anyway, if VY does have problems, that would only make me route him all the more.

 

I trust Buddy and Chan's judgement. If VY makes the team it would be a sign that they just got deeper at QB. If he doesn't, then we can all just hope Thigpen lifted his game.

[Cynical]

I didn't say anything about the mayor of Nashville. I have said that Fisher called the Nashville cops and told them Vince was possibly suicidal, and then later Fisher's office leaked it to the press. I have said what everyone knows. Jeff Fisher didn't want Vince. Owner Bud Adams insisted on VY being picked, and later Adams insisted that Vince start when Fisher's choice Kerry Collins was 0-6 and the Titans were coming off a 59-0 drubbing by NE.

 

Yet Adams had no problem releasing Young after the 2010 season was over.

If Fisher and his staff truly was the problem, why not keep him? Fisher was already gone when Adams pulled the plug on Young.

 

The fact that Vince went out and won 8 of 10 and probably saved Fisher's job only made Fisher more bitter. I've said that after Texas beat USC in the national championship Vince had the misfortune of being drafted to a team where the head coach was a USC grad and the OC was a former USC coach,

 

Please, just stop. You went from Homer to stupid with that statement. Fisher may have not wanted Young, but I seriously doubt it was due in part because Texas recently beat USC for the title.

The Titans drafted SS Michael Griffin the following year, and he played on the championship team with Vince Young. You do not hear any bad news report about Griffin.

 

and neither wanted him. All of Vince's "bad behavior" happened around Nashville. There has been none before and none since.

 

Its called "adversity", and how it's dealt with.

 

When Fisher benched Vince the last time, Vince was rocking a 98.5 passer rating. Fisher finished out the season with Rusty Smith, losing.

 

And in any NFL city there will be cops who will love to buddy up to the HC, just like you would, and they will do him favors. And Fisher has many, many influential friends in the NFL. I've said that Vince was drafted into a bad situation, and still won a bunch of games as QB.

Now I'm saying that Vince isn't wacko or a terminal head case. You have never seen video evidence of Vince being disrespectful to coaches, teammates or opponents.

 

You do not need video when you have witnesses.

 

http://nashvillecity...-young-released

Not revealed in the numbers are the tantrums — public and private — that irritated coaches and alienated some teammates. His tenure also included reports of meetings to which he arrived late or occasionally not at all and one notable missed flight during his rookie season.

 

And spare me the "That was all Jeff Fisher" nonsense. The media do get to talk to the players.

[HOUSE]

I kinda agree with you. Loaded might be a bit too strong until they prove it on the field, but they have made so many major strides. I too think the ultimate downfall of this team is going to be the QB position. We have to hope that Fitz can do in 16 games what he did in 4 or 5 last season. I think Thigpen might just be the worst backup in the NFL based on what he showed last year, and Vince Young is, well, Vince Young. I see us spending our first pick in the 2013 draft on a QB.

 

 

They used to have to play at least one game for them before they went on the Wall of Fame also?

 

Lol, I clearly stated in this thread that Vince Young might not be on the team after training camp. Hardly a nomination for the wall.

Edited July 12, 2012 by HOUSE

[caracara]

If Fisher and his staff truly was the problem, why not keep him? Fisher was already gone when Adams pulled the plug on Young.

 

Fisher had Young banned from the locker room. He was effectively off the team. Munchak wanted a clean slate. Cynical. you believe all the reports and negativity that came out of Nashville, and you believe them because you want to. You obviously don't like Vince. I believe in what i've seen from Vince on and off the field, and I believe those things his teammates have said about him. VY was dropped into a situation that was exceptionally bad. He was the victim of a smear campaign that started before he was drafted. In fact as far as i know, his particular situation, for a 1st round franchise QB, is unprecedented. To folks who like VY, it has been sickening.

 

But that was Tennessee, this is Buffalo. The Buffalo coaches don't appear to have a conflict of of interest. If you believe Merril Hoge, and you obviously do, Jeff Fisher generated negative stories about VY and gave Hoge the green light to run with it. I've never heard of a head coach doing that with his newly drafted #3 franchise QB. Despite all this Vince led his team to victories. That's how he dealt with the adversity.

 

To the OP House, VY could use some coaching from a coach who wants him to be the best QB he can be. Hopefully Gaily will help him out. Chan has always struck me as a terrific man and a pretty decent coach. Having worked under Jerry Jones, Chan might have some sympathy for people who have had to work under duplicitous a-holes

Edited July 12, 2012 by caracara

[Chilly]

The story about Vince Young can be traced back to his family.

 

His family has always had a huge influence on his life, and he never really learned to live without parental roles in his life advising him. His family always guided him, and never really let him become a truly independent individual. Mack Brown prides Texas on being a family atmosphere, which allowed him to flourish but didn't challenge him to gain independence from his family.

 

When he went to the NFL, this first showed up with his choice of agent. At the urging of his family, Vince Young rebuffed more experienced agents to choose an attorney from Houston who was a family friend, Major Adams. He was the only NFL client that Major Adams actually had, and has now filed a lawsuit against him for his incompetence:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/12/vince-young-suing-former-agent-financial-adviser/

 

Vince was a good leader at Texas - when he had someone like Mack Brown to guide him, and his family was close by in Houston, making it easy for him. Mack likes to act as a father figure to many players, which Vince responded well to. When he made the transition to the NFL, and living in Tennessee, he ran into a combination of bad advice from his family, not being in close proximity to them anymore, and having to stand on his own as a professional in the NFL (lord knows Jeff Fisher doesn't coach the same way Mack Brown does).

 

As a result, he ran into issues with maturity. For really the first time in his life, he had to stand on his own. This led to a lot of immaturity and lashing out (remember that whole depression episode). As a result, Vince has struggled, finally getting the "stand on your own" experience that everyone gets thrust into as a young adult while also having the added pressure of being a starting NFL QB and top-5 draft pick.

 

I'm intrigued by the combination of Vince being older and hopefully more mature, and Chan being more of a players coach than Jeff Fisher, to be a decent combination for him. Only time will tell, though.

Edited July 12, 2012 by BlueFire

[HOUSE]

The story about Vince Young can be traced back to his family.

 

His family has always had a huge influence on his life, and he never really learned to live without parental roles in his life advising him. His family always guided him, and never really let him become a truly independent individual. Mack Brown prides Texas on being a family atmosphere, which allowed him to flourish but didn't challenge him to gain independence from his family.

 

When he went to the NFL, this first showed up with his choice of agent. At the urging of his family, Vince Young rebuffed more experienced agents to choose an attorney from Houston who was a family friend, Major Adams. He was the only NFL client that Major Adams actually had, and has now filed a lawsuit against him for his incompetence:

 

http://profootballta...ancial-adviser/

 

Vince was a good leader at Texas - when he had someone like Mack Brown to guide him, and his family was close by in Houston, making it easy for him. Mack likes to act as a father figure to many players, which Vince responded well to. When he made the transition to the NFL, and living in Tennessee, he ran into a combination of bad advice from his family, not being in close proximity to them anymore, and having to stand on his own as a professional in the NFL (lord knows Jeff Fisher doesn't coach the same way Mack Brown does).

 

As a result, he ran into issues with maturity. For really the first time in his life, he had to stand on his own. This led to a lot of immaturity and lashing out (remember that whole depression episode). As a result, Vince has struggled, finally getting the "stand on your own" experience that everyone gets thrust into as a young adult while also having the added pressure of being a starting NFL QB and top-5 draft pick.

 

I'm intrigued by the combination of Vince being older and hopefully more mature, and Chan being more of a players coach than Jeff Fisher, to be a decent combination for him. Only time will tell, though.

 

Nice post and I agree, should be interesting