The Big Cat Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 No, but you did say that minorities simply can't obtain a photo ID. How else can that be interpreted given the context? I said that was according to articles I had read. Their accuracy and veracity you're welcome to scrutinize, but I'm neither an ID-less minority, nor know any personally (that I'm aware of), so I have no basis of knowledge on the issue, nor have ever personally attempted to verify the obstacles for obtaining identification. But it's been written about ad nauseum. You're welcome to consult Google if you like. No, but you did say that minorities simply can't obtain a photo ID. How else can that be interpreted given the context? Plus he said nothing about their capability of obtaining ID's, just that it was a win for the GOP if the measure was passed. So unless you've made up your mind that we disagree on this, and you're going to continue moving the target to satisfy that, please don't put any more words in my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Some or most probably can. But, are they going to have to pay for it? Not unless the gov't charges them for it so we can dismiss that concern. Nobody ever answered the question of why this is suddenly a top issue for Republicans? Voter fraud virtually doesn't exist and making people get a state ID isn't going to fix anything. Who says it's a 'top issue' and why does that matter? Is there a wrong time to fix an obvious problem? Maybe you were in a coma at the time, but a few years back we had a Presidental election decided by a margin of 500 votes. If these laws are put in place, are they people going to have to re-register to vote? Why would they? I think any 18-20 year old kids figured out fake IDs a long time ago. Pointless comment that bears no relevance. You don't ignore a problem if you think your solution will address only 99% of the problem. So in summary, you have presented no rational argument against requiring ID to vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Not unless the gov't charges them for it so we can dismiss that concern. Who says it's a 'top issue' and why does that matter? Is there a wrong time to fix an obvious problem? Maybe you were in a coma at the time, but a few years back we had a Presidental election decided by a margin of 500 votes. Why would they? Pointless comment that bears no relevance. You don't ignore a problem if you think your solution will address only 99% of the problem. So in summary, you have presented no rational argument against requiring ID to vote. The point is it's NOT an obvious problem. And the 2000 election was decided by a half million votes. Just over 100,000,000 people voted, so unless 0.5% of all votes cast are frauds (numbers I've seen look more like 0.0009%), then it has little to impact on elections, especially Presidential ones. You're right though, there's no rationale argument against presenting ID to vote. But the argument FOR the law--that voter fraud is a rampant scourge on Democracy is just as irrationale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Plus he said nothing about their capability of obtaining ID's, just that it was a win for the GOP if the measure was passed. Again, you'll have to read his opening remark where he stated that the reform would limit minority votes and consider the implications of that statement. Since obtaining an ID is pretty easy and free, which has been repeatedly established, his position (that the proposed reform will limit minority votes) speaks volumes about minorities' ability to obtain photo ID. I'm sure you'll have no problem providing me with one article that suggests minorities are restricted in some way from obtaining photo IDs. I haven't found any, and took those words ("well they can't") to be your own. Edited July 12, 2012 by Jauronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The point is it's NOT an obvious problem. And the 2000 election was decided by a half million votes. Just over 100,000,000 people voted, so unless 0.5% of all votes cast are frauds (numbers I've seen look more like 0.0009%), then it has little to impact on elections, especially Presidential ones. You're right though, there's no rationale argument against presenting ID to vote. But the argument FOR the law--that voter fraud is a rampant scourge on Democracy is just as irrationale. No one said it was a rampant scourge on Democracy. 99% of the things we pass laws about aren't 'rampant scourges on Democracy'. Is that really your threshold for addressing a problem? And unless I dreamed that whole Electoral College thing, than the 2000 election was indeed decided by 500 votes. If there were 500 net fraudulent votes for Bush in FL than the election was *gasp* STOLEN!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Again, you'll have to read his opening remark where he stated that the reform would limit minority votes and consider the implications of that statement. Since obtaining an ID is pretty easy and free, which has been repeatedly established, his position (that the proposed reform will limit minority votes) speaks volumes about minorities' ability to obtain photo ID. I'm sure you'll have no problem providing me with one article that suggests minorities are restricted in some way from obtaining photo IDs. I haven't found any, and took those words ("well they can't") to be your own. I already did. Go back, click the link, read. From the Atlantic piece. There's more. As Brentin Mock wrote earlier this week at Colorlines, the practical reality of life in Texas makes it difficult, if not impossible, for people who want to comply with the new ID law to do so. Mock wrote: Texas has no driver's license offices in almost a third of the state's counties. Meanwhile, close to 15 percent of Hispanic Texans living in counties without driver's license offices don't have ID. A little less than a quarter of driver's license offices have extended hours, which would make it tough for many working voters to find a place and time to acquire the IDs. Despite this, the Texas legislature struck an amendment that would have reimbursed low-income voters for travel expenses when going to apply for a voter ID, and killed another that would have required offices to remain open until 7:00 p.m. or later on just one weekday, and four or more hours at least two weekends. No one said it was a rampant scourge on Democracy. 99% of the things we pass laws about aren't 'rampant scourges on Democracy'. Is that really your threshold for addressing a problem? And unless I dreamed that whole Electoral College thing, than the 2000 election was indeed decided by 500 votes. If there were 500 net fraudulent votes for Bush in FL than the election was *gasp* STOLEN!!! It's not mine, no. But that's how the issue is being sold--and yes, that's pretty damn close to what they're calling it. And, okay, fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I already did. Go back, click the link, read. From the Atlantic piece. There's more. As Brentin Mock wrote earlier this week at Colorlines, the practical reality of life in Texas makes it difficult, if not impossible, for people who want to comply with the new ID law to do so. Mock wrote: Texas has no driver's license offices in almost a third of the state's counties. Meanwhile, close to 15 percent of Hispanic Texans living in counties without driver's license offices don't have ID. A little less than a quarter of driver's license offices have extended hours, which would make it tough for many working voters to find a place and time to acquire the IDs. Despite this, the Texas legislature struck an amendment that would have reimbursed low-income voters for travel expenses when going to apply for a voter ID, and killed another that would have required offices to remain open until 7:00 p.m. or later on just one weekday, and four or more hours at least two weekends. You mean you have to leave the house? That is nigh impossible, yet hundreds of millions have managed. So in other words, its no more difficult for them to obtain a photo ID than it is for you or me. As for "well, they can't", those are still looking like your words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Texas has no driver's license offices in almost a third of the state's counties. Meanwhile, close to 15 percent of Hispanic Texans living in counties without driver's license offices don't have ID. What percentage of those 15% without ID (such as a drivers license) operate a motor vehicle? And in today's mandatory insurance age, what percentage of those without ID (such as a drivers license) operate a motor vehicle without insurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary M Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 . A little less than a quarter of driver's license offices have extended hours, which would make it tough for many working voters to find a place and time to acquire the IDs. How do they cash their pay checks with out an ID? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 You mean you have to leave the house? That is nigh impossible, yet hundreds of millions have managed. So in other words, its no more difficult for them to obtain a photo ID than it is for you or me. As for "well, they can't", those are still looking like your words. I don't know why you're picking a fight, so have it your way. I think minorities, the poor, college students, legal immigrants and the elderly are completely incapable of helping themselves. There: my words, my opinion. Happy? What percentage of those 15% without ID (such as a drivers license) operate a motor vehicle? And in today's mandatory insurance age, what percentage of those without ID (such as a drivers license) operate a motor vehicle without insurance? How do they cash their pay checks with out an ID? Why are you guys asking me!? I don't think it's unreasonable to have people present ID to vote, I've already said so much in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Some people can't even afford the $10 (I know a few). And since when does a poll tax only become a poll tax above a certain dollar amount? That's just stupid. It's very easy: you have to pay money to vote, it's a poll tax. No, you're wrong in so many ways I don't have time to explain it all right now. I'll get back to you on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 http://hosted2.ap.org/NYBUE/f7ded15e4d4846268a17b79c1c4b7cb8/Article_2012-07-13-Texas%20Voter%20ID%20Trial/id-12d3c9ebc3cc4c3783a43d7fcf38f024 Feds to rule on Texas attempt to stop citizens from voting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 http://hosted2.ap.org/NYBUE/f7ded15e4d4846268a17b79c1c4b7cb8/Article_2012-07-13-Texas%20Voter%20ID%20Trial/id-12d3c9ebc3cc4c3783a43d7fcf38f024 Feds to rule on Texas attempt to stop citizens ineligible people from voting Fixed it for you. You are welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 No, you're wrong in so many ways I don't have time to explain it all right now. I'll get back to you on this. Feel free, when you have the time. But given that the purpose of a "poll tax" was to demonstrate an economic interest in the country (on the principle that, if you don't have "skin in the game", you shouldn't have a say), and given that one of the purposes of voter ID would be to ensure proper citizenship and residency, it's a very good and easy argument to make that any fee charged for voter ID is, in effect, a poll tax. Whether you agree with the statement or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 No. No problems here. (AP) OLYMPIA, Wash. - The voter registration form arrived in the mail last month with some key information already filled in: Rosie Charlston's name was complete, as was her Seattle address. Problem is, Rosie was a black lab who died in 1998. A group called the Voter Participation Center has touted the distribution of some 5 million registration forms in recent weeks, targeting Democratic-leaning voting blocs such as unmarried women, African-Americans, Latinos and young adults. But residents and election administrators around the country also have reported a series of bizarre and questionable mailings addressed to animals, dead people, noncitizens and people already registered to vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 No. No problems here. Dogs lean Democrat? Actually that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 No. No problems here. I don't think anyone's denying the problem of voter registration mishaps. The day the dog actually casts a vote is the day we start panicking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I don't think anyone's denying the problem of voter registration mishaps. The day the dog actually casts a vote is the day we start panicking... C'mon BC, you're smarter than that. If there is NO ID requirement, then anyone can show up to be "Rosie" and actually vote, or any of the dead people referenced in the story. Saying, "Oh, its just a registration problem" is short-sighted, its leads to voter fraud just as easily. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 C'mon BC, you're smarter than that. If there is NO ID requirement, then anyone can show up to be "Rosie" and actually vote, or any of the dead people referenced in the story. Saying, "Oh, its just a registration problem" is short-sighted, its leads to voter fraud just as easily. BC just didn't think it through first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 C'mon BC, you're smarter than that. If there is NO ID requirement, then anyone can show up to be "Rosie" and actually vote, or any of the dead people referenced in the story. Saying, "Oh, its just a registration problem" is short-sighted, its leads to voter fraud just as easily. . BC just didn't think it through first. I'm not denying the possibility of it happening. But the fact of the matter is there's no evidence support that it IS happening. If you can prove otherwise--that fraudulent votes are being cast in great numbers--then so be it. But all the data I've seen suggests the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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