The Big Cat Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I think we all acknowledge that some people will not be able to vote because of the law. What we're saying is "we don't care" as long as people aren't allowed to vote fraudulently. The integrity of the process is more important than a few people who will be inconvenienced by it. And how will "inconveniencing" (read: preventing) those people guarantee integrity in the process? Shouldn't those votes be sacrificed if and only if it guarantees no voter fraud? And if doesn't guarantee no voter fraud, then why are we shaving those votes in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 And how will "inconveniencing" (read: preventing) those people guarantee integrity in the process? Shouldn't those votes be sacrificed if and only if it guarantees no voter fraud? And if doesn't guarantee no voter fraud, then why are we shaving those votes in the first place? I can guarantee you won't find any voter fraud in states with voter ID laws. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 And how will "inconveniencing" (read: preventing) those people guarantee integrity in the process? Shouldn't those votes be sacrificed if and only if it guarantees no voter fraud? And if doesn't guarantee no voter fraud, then why are we shaving those votes in the first place? Oh, I'm going to go with "Because it's the voter's responsibility as a voter to vote responsibly, which includes proving they are who they say they are. And if they can't, they simply shouldn't vote." What's wrong with requiring voters to be responsible voters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Oh, I'm going to go with "Because it's the voter's responsibility as a voter to vote responsibly, which includes proving they are who they say they are. And if they can't, they simply shouldn't vote." What's wrong with requiring voters to be responsible voters? You mean having that “right” to vote should have some responsibilities attached to it? None of our other “Rights” have any responsibilities attached to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) What's wrong with requiring voters to be responsible voters? Because it's hard to be a responsible voter when most voters are, apparently, either 93-year-old black women born in Alabama when they didn't give birth certificates to black people, or 60-year-old black women who (for reasons still not explained) are incapable of getting a copy of their birth certificate from the state of Georgia after more than 10 years of, apparently, trying. FREE WILOLA!!!! Edited August 1, 2012 by LABillzFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I can guarantee you won't find any voter fraud in states with voter ID laws. Problem solved. Bet me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 And how will "inconveniencing" (read: preventing) those people guarantee integrity in the process? Shouldn't those votes be sacrificed if and only if it guarantees no voter fraud? And if doesn't guarantee no voter fraud, then why are we shaving those votes in the first place? So you're saying if you can't guarantee 100% elimination of all voter fraud you shouldn't do it at all. Any rational basis for this or is this just how you feel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I can guarantee you won't find any voter fraud in states with voter ID laws. Problem solved. You'll find less in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they handle voter ID with the simple process of dyeing your thumbprint purple when you cast your vote. One person, one vote. And we set those systems up. The electoral systems we set up for goat-herders in pissant third-world countries that we invade has more integrity than our system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 So you're saying if you can't guarantee 100% elimination of all voter fraud you shouldn't do it at all. Any rational basis for this or is this just how you feel? Jesus. Of course I'm not saying that. God damn. These modifications will prevent people from voting. Therefore, these modifications are not the answer. At least Tom's finger dying technique doesn't preclude people from the process...don't know how it would work with early voting, or as EII mentioned, absentee voting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Jesus. Of course I'm not saying that. God damn. These modifications will prevent people from voting. Therefore, these modifications are not the answer. At least Tom's finger dying technique doesn't preclude people from the process...don't know how it would work with early voting, or as EII mentioned, absentee voting... That's actually not what you said, but that's cool. So we shouldn't enact any measure that directly or indirectly causes anyone not to cast a vote. Any rational basis for this or is this just how you feel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Jesus. Of course I'm not saying that. God damn. These modifications will prevent people from voting. Therefore, these modifications are not the answer. At least Tom's finger dying technique doesn't preclude people from the process...don't know how it would work with early voting, or as EII mentioned, absentee voting... You haven't yet given a single reason why people shouldn't be precluded from the process, mind you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 That's actually not what you said, but that's cool. So we shouldn't enact any measure that directly or indirectly causes anyone not to cast a vote. Any rational basis for this or is this just how you feel? Is voting a right, an obligation or a privilege? Right, yes. Obligation, no. Privilege, no. Without getting into a philosophical debate about the penal system, I believe every citizen (except for those concurrently serving jail sentences), should be given, at no cost, an opportunity to vote. You haven't yet given a single reason why people shouldn't be precluded from the process, mind you... See above. I believe voting's a right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Is voting a right, an obligation or a privilege? Right, yes. Obligation, no. Privilege, no. Without getting into a philosophical debate about the penal system, I believe every citizen (except for those concurrently serving jail sentences), should be given, at no cost, an opportunity to vote. See above. I believe voting's a right. So, if they are serving their sentences consecutively they should get to vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 So, if they are serving their sentences consecutively they should get to vote? Concurrent with elections, not other sentences, doy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Concurrent with elections, not other sentences, doy. Most states have laws prohibiting convicted felons from voting, so I assume you don't agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Is voting a right, an obligation or a privilege? Right, yes. Obligation, no. Privilege, no. Without getting into a philosophical debate about the penal system, I believe every citizen (except for those concurrently serving jail sentences), should be given, at no cost, an opportunity to vote. Well we've already suggested free IDs for those in need, so I'll take your answer to be no, it's just how you feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) Most states have laws prohibiting convicted felons from voting, so I assume you don't agree? I think if one has paid his/her debt to society, then he/she has paid his/her debt to society. Well we've already suggested free IDs for those in need, so I'll take your answer to be no, it's just how you feel. I don't know what kind of 'gotcha-moment' you're trying to back me into here, but if you're going to draw a distinction between "rationale" and "how I feel," then your line of questioning is inherently a setup... I told you: I believe voting is a right. Therefore, nobody should be precluded from the process, unless--at the time of an election--you're serving a sentence, thus you've been removed from society and don't get to participate. As I mentioned above, once you're out, you're out. As a convicted felon out of jail, you pay your taxes, etc., so you should be re-enveloped into the voting process. What answer were you looking for? Edited August 1, 2012 by The Big Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I think if one has paid his/her debt to society, then he/she has paid his/her debt to society. I don't know what kind of 'gotcha-moment' you're trying to back me into here, but if you're going to draw a distinction between "rationale" and "how I feel," then your line of questioning is inherently a setup... I told you: I believe voting is a right. Therefore, nobody should be precluded from the process, unless--at the time of an election--you're serving a sentence, thus you've been removed from society and don't get to participate. As I mentioned above, once you're out, you're out. As a convicted felon out of jail, you pay your taxes, etc., so you should be re-enveloped into the voting process. What answer were you looking for? What if they are out of prison but still are on probation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 What if they are out of prison but still are on probation? What if they're born in a prison, nobody knows it, they're tucked away in a basement for 20 years and during that time they miss two opportunities to vote? I think we're done here. I don't trust that you're just plain curious about where I stand on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Bet me? How much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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