The Big Cat Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 All that means is that you don't recognize the responsibility that the voter has to cast their vote fairly and accurately. I think this has become a discussion of personal responsibility run amok. Somewhere there's a universe where accountability and empathy can live in balance--but never in American political discourse, it seems.
Rob's House Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 You're debating that they're capable of voting with the ID law. That's not what I asked. And you're not basing that opinion on anything that resembles some people's reality. Some, sure, others, definitely not. In whose reality (other than some bullsht story about taking 10 years to get a birth certificate) is a free ID card out of reach? As far as birth certificates go (and granted this anecdote comes from my reality so it's not comprehensive, just illustartive) I was in New Orleans just over 24 hours away from getting on a cruise ship and realized I needed a birth certificate to board, only I didn't have a birth certificate. I called my mom, who didn't have one for me either, so she went down to the vital records office, got a birth certificate, and FedExed it to me overnight and I had it in hand the next day. I realize some people can't afford the $15 fed ex charge, but then most people have more than 24 hours notice that the election is coming up. Some people can't drive to the polls either. That's their reality. Maybe we should just put ballot boxes with pencil and paper on street corners and everyone can just write down their choice and put it in the box. They'll be on the honor system. Sure, requiring registration and coming to polling locations would reduce fraud, by I guarantee you more people would be able to vote if we did it that way. I think this has become a discussion of personal responsibility run amok. Somewhere there's a universe where accountability and empathy can live in balance--but never in American political discourse, it seems. Dude, Really? It's a !@#$ing ID requirement. It's not the Berlin Wall to the ballot you make it out to be.
DC Tom Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I think this has become a discussion of personal responsibility run amok. Somewhere there's a universe where accountability and empathy can live in balance--but never in American political discourse, it seems. Empthay? You're arguing for empathy in the electoral process? Wednesday.
Jauronimo Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I think this has become a discussion of personal responsibility run amok. Somewhere there's a universe where accountability and empathy can live in balance--but never in American political discourse, it seems. What ever do you mean? You've been held totally accountable for every contradictory and irreconcilable statement you've made in this thread, and while I and others genuinely feel bad for you it would be doing you a disservice not to hold you to higher standards. Stop playing devil's advocate and trying to prove yourself by taking all comers on topics that you're probably not too interested in to begin with and it will only get easier.
KD in CA Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Okay. So, if 100,000 don't end up voting because of the new ID laws, but 10,000 cases of voter fraud are curbed, are these "easy and effective" measures worth the collateral damage? Yes or no. Obviously yes since there is absolutely no reason why the 100,000 can't vote. If they chose not to, that is their 'vote'. No one is restricting their rights in any way.
The Big Cat Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 In whose reality (other than some bullsht story about taking 10 years to get a birth certificate) is a free ID card out of reach? As far as birth certificates go (and granted this anecdote comes from my reality so it's not comprehensive, just illustartive) I was in New Orleans just over 24 hours away from getting on a cruise ship and realized I needed a birth certificate to board, only I didn't have a birth certificate. I called my mom, who didn't have one for me either, so she went down to the vital records office, got a birth certificate, and FedExed it to me overnight and I had it in hand the next day. I realize some people can't afford the $15 fed ex charge, but then most people have more than 24 hours notice that the election is coming up. Some people can't drive to the polls either. That's their reality. Maybe we should just put ballot boxes with pencil and paper on street corners and everyone can just write down their choice and put it in the box. They'll be on the honor system. Sure, requiring registration and coming to polling locations would reduce fraud, by I guarantee you more people would be able to vote if we did it that way. Dude, Really? It's a !@#$ing ID requirement. It's not the Berlin Wall to the ballot you make it out to be. I understand we fundamentally diverge on whether or not obtaining an ID is a reality. I have no reason to believe that so much would have been made of this if it was as easy a you profess it to be. Empthay? You're arguing for empathy in the electoral process? Wednesday. Then I'll come back to my assertion that this has nothing to do with "integrity in the voting process," and everything to do with knocking out a large block of Democratic voters, thus the quick draw on the tough titties if you can't get an ID attitude. If we were so damned concerned about the purity of the electoral process, then those clamoring for ID's would be equally concerned with making sure everyone who needs one gets one. Instead, I'm getting the exact opposite vibe--ye olde help your own !@#$ing self mentality which has done wonders for ingratiating the otherwise sound intellect of the GOP with an understandably put-off audience. "You're not wrong, [Republicans]. You're just a [bunch of] !@#$(s)." Obviously yes since there is absolutely no reason why the 100,000 can't vote. If they chose not to, that is their 'vote'. No one is restricting their rights in any way. Assuming of course, that setting up barriers is--on some semantic planet--not synonymous with "restricting." You can argue till you're blue in the face that everyone has fair and easy access to ID's, but that's just plainly ignoring all the coverage of this issue that indicates the contrary.
DC Tom Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Then I'll come back to my assertion that this has nothing to do with "integrity in the voting process," and everything to do with knocking out a large block of Democratic voters, thus the quick draw on the tough titties if you can't get an ID attitude. If we were so damned concerned about the purity of the electoral process, then those clamoring for ID's would be equally concerned with making sure everyone who needs one gets one. Instead, I'm getting the exact opposite vibe--ye olde help your own !@#$ing self mentality which has done wonders for ingratiating the otherwise sound intellect of the GOP with an understandably put-off audience. "You're not wrong, [Republicans]. You're just a [bunch of] !@#$(s)." Even better: "It's a good idea, but it's a better idea never to do anything that benefits the Republicans."
WorldTraveller Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Even better: "It's a good idea, but it's a better idea never to do anything that benefits the Republicans." That pretty much sums it up.
Doc Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I'm sure that some people who would vote Republican will be affected by this. Even those voting for a 3rd party.
The Big Cat Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Even better: "It's a good idea, but it's a better idea never to do anything that benefits the Republicans handicaps Democrats manipulates the voting system for the sake of winning elections." I couldn't agree more.
DC Tom Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I couldn't agree more. So you disagree with the Democrats' position just as much?
The Big Cat Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 So you disagree with the Democrats' position just as much? If it's a position that benefits them at the cost of Republicans, then of course I do. Inherently anything that benefits one of the major parties will handicap the other, though, right? So if they have a "position" that alters the process for the benefit, then their pile of **** is just as steamy.
KD in CA Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I understand we fundamentally diverge on whether or not obtaining an ID is a reality. I have no reason to believe that so much would have been made of this if it was as easy a you profess it to be. Then I'll come back to my assertion that this has nothing to do with "integrity in the voting process," and everything to do with knocking out a large block of Democratic voters, thus the quick draw on the tough titties if you can't get an ID attitude. If we were so damned concerned about the purity of the electoral process, then those clamoring for ID's would be equally concerned with making sure everyone who needs one gets one. Instead, I'm getting the exact opposite vibe--ye olde help your own !@#$ing self mentality which has done wonders for ingratiating the otherwise sound intellect of the GOP with an understandably put-off audience. "You're not wrong, [Republicans]. You're just a [bunch of] !@#$(s)." Assuming of course, that setting up barriers is--on some semantic planet--not synonymous with "restricting." You can argue till you're blue in the face that everyone has fair and easy access to ID's, but that's just plainly ignoring all the coverage of this issue that indicates the contrary. The only one who is arguing themselves blue about this idiocy is you. And no one is "setting up barriers". I love how people now think it's a right to not have to expend on iota of energy on your own behalf. Unreal.
The Big Cat Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 The only one who is arguing themselves blue about this idiocy is you. And no one is "setting up barriers". I love how people now think it's a right to not have to expend on iota of energy on your own behalf. Unreal. So of all the reports, of the 750,000 PA voters that will have to adjust, there isn't one person that will have difficulty obtaining a license? Why are we making it difficult for people to vote?
Rob's House Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Remember guys, it doesn't matter if your vote is negated by a fraudulent vote, what matters is only that you get to punch a card at the poll. That's what democracy is all about.
Doc Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Who cares if people, be they Democrats, Repubs, or others, can't vote because they're too stupid, lazy, or cheap to get an ID?
DC Tom Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 So of all the reports, of the 750,000 PA voters that will have to adjust, there isn't one person that will have difficulty obtaining a license? Why are we making it difficult for people to vote? Because civic responsibility should be easy.
Fezmid Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 If we were so damned concerned about the purity of the electoral process, then those clamoring for ID's would be equally concerned with making sure everyone who needs one gets one. In Wisconsin, you can get a free ID. And free transportation to a place to GET the ID. What more do you want...?
Taro T Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 In Wisconsin, you can get a free ID. And free transportation to a place to GET the ID. What more do you want...? Well, in fairness, that could take an hour or 2 out of a busy person's day. If they REAAALLY were concerned about the rights of the voter, they'd bring the ID application paperwork and ID to the voter. And they should make sure they have a pen brought to the voter as well. Forcing someone to go out and buy a $0.39 Bic ballpoint could be considered a poll tax. Because it isn't right to make somebody make any kind of effort at all to excercise their right to vote.
The Big Cat Posted July 31, 2012 Posted July 31, 2012 In Wisconsin, you can get a free ID. And free transportation to a place to GET the ID. What more do you want...? That's great! The same cannot be said for every state and community though. One state's policy does not a universe solution make.
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