DC Tom Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Why is the flexible schedule truly ridiculous? Affluent people often place a high priority on the ability to use that affluence at their leisure. Your unsupported fiat declaration not withstanding. Perhaps the two of you are using different definitions of "flexible"? I know plenty of doctors who set their schedule on their own terms (e.g. "My office hours are 7 to 3.") I know very few who have the flexibility to deviate from that schedule once set, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Perhaps the two of you are using different definitions of "flexible"? I know plenty of doctors who set their schedule on their own terms (e.g. "My office hours are 7 to 3.") I know very few who have the flexibility to deviate from that schedule once set, however. Good point. Thanks for helping me to clarify. The flexibility to set their own schedule is what I'm speaking to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Why is the flexible schedule truly ridiculous? Affluent people often place a high priority on the ability to use that affluence at their leisure. Your unsupported fiat declaration not withstanding. Additionally, as I asked you before, please explain to me how creating an artificial scarcity of healthcare providers helps patients? It isn't a piece of paper that says you have medical coverage that provides you with access to healthcare. It's the availability of a competent doctor to treat you when you need it. I can have a legal document that entitles me to ownership of all the pirate gold you have stored in your basement, but if you don't have any pirate gold in your basement what good does my piece of paper do me? there are plenty of places where docs make much less than in the USA, especially specialists. yet, there's no shortage of applicants nor practitioners in many of these places. in this environment, it would be less likely that people choosing between high earning professions would choose medicine. but outcomes in such places often are better than outcomes in the usa. would you rather have a doctor that scored in the top 5th of his peers in the mcat that put your health highest on the priority list or one in the top 1/10th that might be prone to ordering questionable and possibly risky tests or procedures for his own monetary benefit? there are still few physician jobs with flexible schedules. pathology and dermatology come to mind but not much else. most docs work long, often unpredictable hours. and even ther specialties mentioned go through the arduous rite of passage known as residency. there are few jobs with less flexible scheduling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 hell, i'd retire early too, if i felt i could maintain my current lifestyle. Thanks Dr. Obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 there are plenty of places where docs make much less than in the USA, especially specialists. yet, there's no shortage of applicants nor practitioners in many of these places. in this environment, it would be less likely that people choosing between high earning professions would choose medicine. but outcomes in such places often are better than outcomes in the usa.Ummm... you've got some awful data points (If you're even using actual data points.) The US has the lowest rates of healthcare scarcity in the world, while other first world nations like Canada and England suffer from care rationing epidemics. Furthermore, we aren't talking about applicants. We're talking about qualified applicants, which is an entirely different animal, unless you're talking about drastically lowering standards for who can practice medicine. would you rather have a doctor that scored in the top 5th of his peers in the mcat that put your health highest on the priority list or one in the top 1/10th that might be prone to ordering questionable and possibly risky tests or procedures for his own monetary benefit?You've shifted the goal posts from a conversation about supply and demand to one about professional ethics and best practices. The two are unrelated. Come back to the discussion at hand. there are still few physician jobs with flexible schedules. pathology and dermatology come to mind but not much else. most docs work long, often unpredictable hours. and even ther specialties mentioned go through the arduous rite of passage known as residency. there are few jobs with less flexible scheduling. I'm not talking about residency, I'm talking about the career arch of a doctor. All doctors in private practice have schedules as flexible as they want them. I just finished off 18 holes with two doctors and another friend a couple hours ago, all of whom cleared their schedules to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 1. More demand for care + fewer doctors 2. ? 3. Lower healthcare costs for everyone! Thanks Obama! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ummm... you've got some awful data points (If you're even using actual data points.) The US has the lowest rates of healthcare scarcity in the world, while other first world nations like Canada and England suffer from care rationing epidemics. Furthermore, we aren't talking about applicants. We're talking about qualified applicants, which is an entirely different animal, unless you're talking about drastically lowering standards for who can practice medicine. You've shifted the goal posts from a conversation about supply and demand to one about professional ethics and best practices. The two are unrelated. Come back to the discussion at hand. I'm not talking about residency, I'm talking about the career arch of a doctor. All doctors in private practice have schedules as flexible as they want them. I just finished off 18 holes with two doctors and another friend a couple hours ago, all of whom cleared their schedules to play. and you've missed the point. outcomes are what most rational people would see as th e important measure. if you have great access to a system with relatively bad outcomes, it's really not doing you much good now is it? and rationing happens here every day just not to you and the rest of your foresome. if you haven't heard there's 40+ million uninsured. th etwo are related in the sense that if applicants are primarily motivated by money to enter a profession, their actions may also be motivated by money within their profession. i suggest you look to the field of finance for some recent examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 and you've missed the point. outcomes are what most rational people would see as th e important measure.So the ends justify the means? If that's what you believe builds a superior moral philosophy, I've got a genocide to sell you. Also, I'd like to see your sourced data points surrounding these so called "most rational people". if you have great access to a system with relatively bad outcomes, it's really not doing you much good now is it? and rationing happens here every day just not to you and the rest of your foresome. if you haven't heard there's 40+ million uninsured. I've just become convinced that you have absolutely no idea what the word "rationing" means. th etwo are related in the sense that if applicants are primarily motivated by money to enter a profession, their actions may also be motivated by money within their profession. i suggest you look to the field of finance for some recent examples. All people are motivated by money... or did you get up and go to work for free today? Just because someone has a higher earning potential than you doesn't make them more prone to corruption. Again, people are people, and there are bad eggs in every field. Stop painting the rest of the world with such broad brush strokes. It doesn't serve your argument, it harms it by making you seem jealous and ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 1. More demand for care + fewer doctors 2. ? 3. Lower healthcare costs for everyone! Thanks Obama! Let me repeat my oft-repeated observation: The ACA not based in any sort of economic reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 So the ends justify the means? If that's what you believe builds a superior moral philosophy, I've got a genocide to sell you. Also, I'd like to see your sourced data points surrounding these so called "most rational people". I've just become convinced that you have absolutely no idea what the word "rationing" means. All people are motivated by money... or did you get up and go to work for free today? Just because someone has a higher earning potential than you doesn't make them more prone to corruption. Again, people are people, and there are bad eggs in every field. Stop painting the rest of the world with such broad brush strokes. It doesn't serve your argument, it harms it by making you seem jealous and ignorant. maybe you should reread "the prince"...i'm pretty certain a better understanding of machiavelli is a prerequisite in finance. maybe you should get sick without insurance and then your definition of rationing might be altered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 maybe you should get sick without insurance and then your definition of rationing might be altered. Well, if he wasn't convinced before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 hell, i'd retire early too, if i felt i could maintain my current lifestyle. i can't and few docs in their 50's can. like most other people, the more you make, the more you spend. "Medical Economics" did a survey fairly recently on the percentage of docs who felt financially able to retire. it didn't support your thesis. i doubt the numbers have improved in the last couple years. I think many would retire from medicine not from the work force. How does artificial scarcity work in favor of patients? Furthermore, the notion of medicine as a calling is pie-in-the-sky utopian horseshit. Most doctors get into medicine because of the earning potential, the social prestige, a family legacy, the flexible schedule, or some combination of those. Doctors are people just like the rest of us. I thought it was the drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Comrades, after we have purged these Greedy 83%'ers from the Medical field we can enjoy modern quality medical care like our Revolutionary brothers in Cuba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 maybe you should reread "the prince"...i'm pretty certain a better understanding of machiavelli is a prerequisite in finance."The Prince" is applied governing philosophy, and has nothing to do with this conversation. Grab the rudder, man. You're drifting in every possible direction other than the one our discussion is headed. Also, for the purposes of civility I'm going to pretend that you didn't just take an unprovoked slap at my business ethics, my education, and my credentials. Don't do it again. maybe you should get sick without insurance and then your definition of rationing might be altered. Ummm... no. An individual's sad feelings and poor life choices don't suddenly make the English language mutable. The definitions of words don't change for the benefit of making your bad argument seem more coherent. You'll just have to keep using words as they are defined like the rest of us if you'd like to be taken seriously, sorry for the inconvenience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 All people are motivated by money... i'm guessing there aren't many teachers, social workers, nurses, clergy or underpaid academics at your club. mine neither... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 i'm guessing there aren't many teachers, social workers, nurses, clergy or underpaid academics at your club. mine neither... With the possible exception of some clergy in some faiths, I'm just going to point out that if you stopped paying those people, they would stop showing up for work. They're all in it for the money. If they weren't, not a one of those professions would be unionized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 "The Prince" is applied governing philosophy, and has nothing to do with this conversation. Grab the rudder, man. You're drifting in every possible direction other than the one our discussion is headed. Also, for the purposes of civility I'm going to pretend that you didn't just take an unprovoked slap at my business ethics, my education, and my credentials. Don't do it again. Ummm... no. An individual's sad feelings and poor life choices don't suddenly make the English language mutable. The definitions of words don't change for the benefit of making your bad argument seem more coherent. You'll just have to keep using words as they are defined like the rest of us if you'd like to be taken seriously, sorry for the inconvenience. your cited quotation is often (over)used as a summation of machiavelli's principles. there are several fine examples of that philosophy at work in the prince. not that any of that has to do with outcomes or measures such as infant mortality, life expectancy and rehospitalization rates. not providing services to people based on insurance or lack there of is economic rationing. the guy that works at the supermarket for minimum wage without insurance didn't choose to be uninsured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Comrades, after we have purged these Greedy 83%'ers from the Medical field we can enjoy modern quality medical care like our Revolutionary brothers in Cuba If you are using the linked article as a disparagement of the Cuban health system then you either didn't bother to read the article or you are deeply stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smears Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Gosh what happened to people becoming doctors for the good of mankind? I have a friend that is going to medical school and he says alot of the people that attend the school already have their car and rims picked out of a magazine once they start making money. People seem to chase lifestyles these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 your cited quotation is often (over)used as a summation of machiavelli's principles. there are several fine examples of that philosophy at work in the prince. not that any of that has to do with outcomes or measures such as infant mortality, life expectancy and rehospitalization rates. If your point is that rational actors will act in there own best interests, I agree. If your point is that we should kill the golden goose because some don't have as many eggs as others, you've lost me. not providing services to people based on insurance or lack there of is economic rationing. the guy that works at the supermarket for minimum wage without insurance didn't choose to be uninsured. First of all, there is no such thing as economic rationing. There is only supply and demnand. Secondly, yes. Yes he did choose to be uninsurd as a byproduct of the poor life choices he made to put himself in his situation. If I choose to cross the street without looking and I get hit by a car, I'm the one who caused the outcome, as it was my own choices which led me there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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