Bill from NYC Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised there's still so much pro-Losman sentiment on this site. The Bills' other first round busts--such as McCargo, Maybin, etc.--generally don't receive that kind of positive attention or favorable "what if?" scenarios. Losman always got praise, and always had an army of excuse makers. I am 100% positive that some posters still think he will be good.....some day. You know how I know this? Because I was like this with Rob Johnson, who had an even better skill set than Losman. It took me a long time to get past the arm, mobility, etc. and realize that RJ was simply an inadequate NFL QB. The worst part about JP was that he couldn't deliver wins. The Bills won very few of his starts, and the fumble against the Jets epitomized his horrid career. For all of his limitations, and they were many, Edwards was clearly superior to Losman, who was brutally awful.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Losman always got praise, and always had an army of excuse makers. I am 100% positive that some posters still think he will be good.....some day. You know how I know this? Because I was like this with Rob Johnson, who had an even better skill set than Losman. It took me a long time to get past the arm, mobility, etc. and realize that RJ was simply an inadequate NFL QB. The worst part about JP was that he couldn't deliver wins. The Bills won very few of his starts, and the fumble against the Jets epitomized his horrid career. For all of his limitations, and they were many, Edwards was clearly superior to Losman, who was brutally awful. Funny how the hate for Jason Peters compelled so many posters to blame Peters and not Losman for that play. It was a defensive back blitzing from the 9 spot… with a jump on the snap count. It was Losman, not Peters who has to make that read and get rid of the ball quickly… Peters has to sit in his stance. Losman rolls out… holds onto the ball too long (yet again) and gets hit from behind on a play where that was the only thing he had to make sure he didn't do.
bowery4 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) I admit I liked Trent, JP never did. Still think our coach ruined both of them by not having decent lines, horrible judgement of abilities and no idea what the hell scheme would work with each skill set. It is no coincidence that they did well before they were coached by Jaruin and then just got bad as they should have progressed. Damn! I added to the thread again lol. Edited July 7, 2012 by bowery4
Orton's Arm Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Losman always got praise, and always had an army of excuse makers. I am 100% positive that some posters still think he will be good.....some day. You know how I know this? Because I was like this with Rob Johnson, who had an even better skill set than Losman. It took me a long time to get past the arm, mobility, etc. and realize that RJ was simply an inadequate NFL QB. The worst part about JP was that he couldn't deliver wins. The Bills won very few of his starts, and the fumble against the Jets epitomized his horrid career. For all of his limitations, and they were many, Edwards was clearly superior to Losman, who was brutally awful. I would agree with this. To expand on what you've written: both Johnson and Losman had very strong arms and quick feet; with Losman's feet a bit quicker than Johnson's. On the other hand, Johnson was much more accurate as a passer than Losman, and better at seeing more than just his #1 target. Johnson could have been a very good quarterback, had it not been for the fact he was extremely weak when it came to anything sack-related. Weak at sensing pressure. Weak at knowing where in the pocket he was supposed to move to, to reduce said pressure. Weak at having a clock in his head. Other than the sacks, Johnson was hands-down a much better quarterback than Losman. It wasn't even close. Even with the sacks, I'd still take Johnson over Losman if I had to choose between the two. Over the course of his career, Johnson averaged 7.2 yards per pass attempt. That number overstates how good he was as a player, because it doesn't take into account all those sacks. What that number means is that if you gave Johnson time in the pocket, he would do a much better job of eating up defenses than any other Bills quarterback in the post-Kelly era. That specifically includes Ryan Fitzpatrick, who has never averaged more than 6.8 yards per attempt in a season. If Johnson could have somehow been turned into something other than a sack waiting to happen, he would have been very good. As for coaching, Sam Wyche coached Joe Montana early in Montana's career. From 2004 - 2005, Wyche was Losman's QB coach. Wyche retired after the 2005 season. Mr. Weo mentioned that during 2006, the Bills didn't ask Losman to make many pass attempts. And seemed to do better when they reduced their reliance on the passing game. He's right about that. But that's only one of the two components of the simplification of the Bills' offense which occurred in 2006. An article I'd read a while back described the other. A reporter had interviewed an NFL coach; who'd said that the Bills' schemes and plays were greatly simplified to accommodate Losman's mental limitations.
thewildrabbit Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 Sure, JP had Sam Wyche for 2 years. But then he had 2 different head coaches, 3 different OC's and as many QB coaches over the next few years. How many game plans was he required to absorb and learn? Not to mention losing his confidence again and again as Mularkey benched him for Kelly Holcomb. Then Jauron benching him for Trent Edwards. Trent Edwards was in the same position only worse, he never even had a decent QB coach or OC his entire time in Buffalo. All he ever had was a wanna be ex OC of the ram who never called plays or set up the game plans, and that was all of one year. Schonert and AVP should have never been allowed to become OC's, and the result was two failed QB's. Not to mention the bad head coaches, bad assistant coaches and general bad O lines and bad teams around them I don't blame the players for the Bills lack of success over those years, I blame the coaching, or lack thereof, and ownership for failing to have a proper GM / President. As for Rob Johnson, he had much better team around him at first, and a better opportunity to succeed with Wade Phillips as HC, Joe Pendry as OC. Many stars of the 90's still with the Bills in his first 2 years. I think this sorta accurately shows what can happen when you hire a lame HC and he in turn hires lame assistants. From 11-5 and playoffs under Phillips in 1999 to 3-13 in 2001under Gregg Williams At the end of 2000 Wilson fired HC Wade Phillips, and he also fired GM John Butler in December of 2000. So Tom Donahoe brought in Gregg Williams as his HC and Williams in turn hired world renowned OC Mike Sheppard....who? WTH, is Mike Sheppard? google him to see he only had 2 years previous experience as an OC under HC Kevin Gilbride 97-98, lord only knows what he did in 1999. Sheppard was OC of the Saints for one year in 2005, and has spent his recent years as WR & QB coach for different teams. Lets face it guys, the Bills have been a joke since RW fired Wade Phillips, and John Butler. Arguing over which QB was the worst over the last decade is kinda moot when you consider the teams and coaches around them
loserlovers Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) That game the Bills were losing by 3 touchdowns. Not sure why people think that was a big deal. I found much more offense with Gailey in that game. With the Bills losing big the Bills continues to run the ball on 1st and 2nd down andbe left with 3rd and long. Gailey was horrible that game, and the 2 INTs Edwards had were both the WR fault, on one Parrish let the CB just rip the ball out of his hands and it counted as an INT. THat team stunk, and they went on the lose 6 more in a row with the other guy too that stinks at QB. OK so you dont like Fitz??? But to compare fitz to Edwards and act like they are equal or even similar is a total joke and makes you look like a fool. Fitz makes mistakes but he wins games,he throws gutsy thread the needle passes and goes big too much1 Little trenty would pretend to read the safties,pretend to look backside, the whole time thinking,"ok if i just look deep then left, i can dump it to jackson and say noone was open" the whole time wetting himself and thinking about his hair. he is a fraud as a football player and needs to move to san fran to be around more of his kind. It wasn't even close. Even with the sacks, I'd still take Johnson over Losman if I had to choose between the two. you make some good points here but Ill tell you this, Losman was a better scrambler who escaped more often to make a play, and he had a little anticipation, Johnson had zero. Like edwards who had no anticipation and resorted to the dump off, Johnson had none either, would scramble outside the pocket and go long. Hence RJ had more YPA than edwards but far more sacks. Its that simple. two losers with totally opposite coping strategies. Losman was only a few brain cells from being a decent qb. He had courage, an arm and a little skill at least. Edited July 8, 2012 by loserlovers
Coach Tuesday Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) My point exactly as to why both Losman and Edwards failed to develop. The Bills lame OC's tried to force both QB's to throw mid to deep passes when neither usually had the time in the pocket required to throw those deep passes. To the last bolded line: No they don't, not all by themselves! The successful ones who adapt usually have some good to great coaching behind them early in their careers. Like I stated earlier in this thread, show me a great QB and I'll show you a great coach behind them. You realize that the most you're "proving" is that the Bills' coaches sucked, right? Something no one disputes? Where your argument breaks down is when you try to infer from that that Losman and Edwards were good QBs who somehow were forever ruined by those coaches. I don't buy it (and it doesn't follow logically). There are plenty of QBs out there who began their careers under bad coaches and then turned it around. Losman and Edwards have had plenty of chances to do the same and have failed repeatedly. They suck, full stop. Edited July 8, 2012 by Coach Tuesday
machine gun kelly Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 Well this thread has been funny. Bottom line is our worst enemy was a terrible front office which then chose poor coaching and put mediocre to just bad talent on the field. Our worst loss in twenty years was Ralph letting pollen go. Butler was decent but mortgaged the farm to put talent on the field and we went in salary cap hell. All of these qb's were bad on bad teams. That's why we have all painfully suffered dealt team after dealt team. It's also why i think many of you are starting to get excited over chan, buddy, wholly and Ralph opening up the wallet. How can anyone say Collins, Johnson, stone hedge Bledsoe, jp, or Edwards were that good. I really believe in our front office, coaching, and think fitzy is going to have a good year. Better QB coaching, better line, solid running game, and no rib injury means we may be coming out of this abysmal decade drought. Go Bills!
Nuncha Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 I bet he's not an Eagles fan. Maybe he jumped on the Bills band wagon?
shoretalk Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 We lived through the bizarre realities of the first decade of this new century with a collection of coaches, oc's, and a miriad of truly bad players who might not even qualify for the new Spring WFL. I will admit ... I was a Losman fan who became disappointed at this failure to take advantage of the opportunities he had here (Breaking his leg in his first season I am sure didn't help in his overall development and confidence on the field especially with the Bills' woeful OL's *see Trent Edwards), which in the end proved to me that he was just another of the many first round quarterbacks chosen by NFL teams who just don't have what it takes to make in in the NFL Ryan Leaf in 1998, Akili Smith in 1999, Tim Couch in 1999, Cade McNown another of the 1999 failures, David Carr in 2002, Patrick Ramsey also in 2002, Matt Leinart in 2006, Brady Quinn in 2007, and the king of them all Jamarcus Russell in 2007. There are others too in just the last ten years drafted by teams other than the Buffalo Bills with the highest of expectations and the confidence of their front offices and coaching staffs (14 first round quarterbacks drafted in the first round since 2000 have failed). As for Trent who is trying to make it as an Eagle ... one hit; one hit did it plus the lack of a head coach who could help him recover from the Phoenix experience. It happens ... but Edwards was showing that he just might have the ability to play in the league but after that game you could tell that he always heard footsteps ... Rob Johnson ... come on get real. But none of the failed quarterbacks from the first decade of this century should be compared to FITZ who stands above each of them. He may not be a great quarterback skill wise but his leadership abilities and potential (We can judge him more accurately after this coming season.) are far above those others who have come and gone. GO BILLS ... and remember every NFL scouting system has severely messed up on first round picks not just the Bills (I know McCargo, Maybin, etc. etc. ... but at least no Jamarcus Russell or Ryan Leaf).
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 8, 2012 Author Posted July 8, 2012 I bet he's not an Eagles fan. Maybe he jumped on the Bills band wagon? Well played sir!
loserlovers Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) The worst part about JP was that he couldn't deliver wins. The Bills won very few of his starts, and the fumble against the Jets epitomized his horrid career. For all of his limitations, and they were many, Edwards was clearly superior to Losman, who was brutally awful. you have it backwards, edwards couldnt even scramble or throw deep and most pitifully,couldnt throw for 10 yards down the middle. Losman sucked but was close to being adequate while Edwards was a total fraud. His "quick release" was really just his lame all-wrist delivery that couldnt hold its accuracy past 10 yards. Even his "deep" ball was a wrist shot that looked gay to me and barely would make it to evans who always had to slow down to catch it. Losman had a good 7-9 season where we almost thought we would go to the playoffs at 7-7. Edwards had the same chance a year later when we played clevland, pre-concussion, he sucked and we lost 8-0. Edwards fooled many a coach so dont feel bad that he fooled you too. Edited July 8, 2012 by loserlovers
Reks Ryan Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 They're not excuses. Look at Peyton in his early career, Eli, even Brady. None of them started that great. They had much better teams then we did. Not for nothing, but Losman and Edwards were QB's that could not fit in to what we had. Losman is better then Edwards, in my opinion; able to think on his feet, adapt while Edwards is a more traditional guy. Neither of these guys succeeded because we needed someone who could go back there and play pop gun with the gutter offense we had. They are excuses. Both guys continued to make the same mistakes over and over again. How many times did Losman throw a bounce pass to an open receiver on 3rd down. And Edwards simply refused to throw the ball downfield. You can't blame their shortcomings on coaches or teammates. Neither player was or is a starting caliber NFL QB. There's a reason neither guy has emerged to start for another team and both have been given chances on QB weak teams like the Jags and Raiders. They along with poor coaching made the Bills painful to watch for many years.
Orton's Arm Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 OK so you dont like Fitz??? But to compare fitz to Edwards and act like they are equal or even similar is a total joke and makes you look like a fool. Fitz makes mistakes but he wins games,he throws gutsy thread the needle passes and goes big too much1 Little trenty would pretend to read the safties,pretend to look backside, the whole time thinking,"ok if i just look deep then left, i can dump it to jackson and say noone was open" the whole time wetting himself and thinking about his hair. he is a fraud as a football player and needs to move to san fran to be around more of his kind. you make some good points here but Ill tell you this, Losman was a better scrambler who escaped more often to make a play, and he had a little anticipation, Johnson had zero. Like edwards who had no anticipation and resorted to the dump off, Johnson had none either, would scramble outside the pocket and go long. Hence RJ had more YPA than edwards but far more sacks. Its that simple. two losers with totally opposite coping strategies. Losman was only a few brain cells from being a decent qb. He had courage, an arm and a little skill at least. Losman needed more than just a few more brain cells to become a decent QB. He also needed to become a lot more accurate on his short to intermediate passes. If it's a short pass, the receiver shouldn't have to bend down to his shoestrings, or leap wildly into the air, to catch it. To address the point made by Fitz's Beard: there's only so much you can blame on coaching. I personally am fairly accurate with short to intermediate passes, and I've never played organized football or received much (if any) coaching at all. If I can figure out how to accurately throw short passes on my own, then surely someone who throws a football for a multimillion dollar living ought to be able to do the same. Unless he lacks whatever skill set it is which allows someone to throw the ball accurately. Johnson clearly had the skill set necessary to be an accurate passer. No other Bills QB from the post-Kelly era has shown himself Johnson's equal in terms of passing accuracy. Unfortunately, Johnson was a sack waiting to happen. While most of the blame for that rests with Johnson, it's also worth noting that the Bills' offensive line was in bad shape in the late '90s. There's a reason why Bill from NYC is a strong proponent of drafting offensive linemen early. That reason is because he's seen plenty of Bills' quarterbacks get killed behind chopped liver lines. I don't want to dismiss the late '90s lines completely, because they were actually fairly decent at run blocking. But their usual quality of pass protection was a D at best. Not the worst lines the Bills have ever fielded, but bad enough! Johnson wasn't known as a sack waiting to happen either in college or in Jacksonville. But he had very good LTs blocking for him in both cases. Suppose the late '90s Bills had put together an offensive line that was so good that Bill from NYC said, "Okay, you guys can use first round picks on DBs now. The offensive line is fine." Would this have resulted in a successful career for Johnson? I don't claim to have the answer to that question, but find it intriguing to wonder about. Every Bills quarterback in the post-Kelly era has had enough positives to tantalize you, but not enough for him to be The Guy. Johnson had all the physical tools you hope to see in your quarterback, and was accurate to boot! But his pocket awareness was abysmal, and his sack-avoidance technique nonexistent. Doug Flutie was good at scrambling, and good at making the OL look better than it really was. But once the defense took away the short stuff, he had nothing left. Drew Bledsoe tantalized Bills fans for the first eight games here, only for Belichick to bring him crashing back to Earth. JP Losman had even better physical tools than Johnson--especially in terms of foot speed--but lacked both the brains and the throwing accuracy necessary to be a starting QB. Kelly Holcomb produced, despite a nonexistent offensive line, bad coaching, and an unreliable running game. Had it not been for a blown officiating call, he likely would have led the Bills to victory over the Patriots. In Foxboro, back when the Patriots were near their peak. But between his age and his arm strength (or lack thereof) he was never going to be The Guy. Ryan Fitzpatrick does a lot of things well, and you have to like the quickness and accuracy with which he reads defenses. Unfortunately, he is not (yet?) a particularly accurate passer. Unless he changes that, he will never be The Guy.
Webster Guy Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 This is my official "I can't wait until the season starts" post. We're talking about Trent Edwards people. And I got suckered in too....... Damn. You got me man......
loserlovers Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 Losman needed more than just a few more brain cells to become a decent QB. He also needed to become a lot more accurate on his short to intermediate passes. If it's a short pass, the receiver shouldn't have to bend down to his shoestrings, or leap wildly into the air, to catch it. ok we agree enough, but why would you name yourself after a piece of turd? i dont get that.
thewildrabbit Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) You realize that the most you're "proving" is that the Bills' coaches sucked, right? Something no one disputes? Where your argument breaks down is when you try to infer from that that Losman and Edwards were good QBs who somehow were forever ruined by those coaches. I don't buy it (and it doesn't follow logically). There are plenty of QBs out there who began their careers under bad coaches and then turned it around. Losman and Edwards have had plenty of chances to do the same and have failed repeatedly. They suck, full stop. The Bills have been bad for a decade or more. Bad teams usually are the result of a bad GM, bad coaching, bad teams, bad drafts and generally bad decisions all around. I'd say that typifies the time since John Butler and Wade Phillips were fired. While not inferring anything... I stated that both Losman and Edwards were starting to look like they might be able to turn that corner and become decent QB's, Instead both regressed under bad coaching. Not everyone here agrees that it was the bad coaching. You for instance are stating they both sucked and no coaching would have improved either. Name me one NFL QB who has had bad coaching in his career and became successful despite the bad coaching! Edited July 9, 2012 by Fear the Beard
Coach Tuesday Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 Name me one NFL QB who has had bad coaching in his career and became successful despite the bad coaching! Ryan Fitzpatrick
Meathead Posted July 9, 2012 Posted July 9, 2012 i really wish we could go back in time and try just letting jp run around like a taller flutie. i used to scream at the tv 'roll out, roll out, roll frikkin out'. yeah i remember the jets roll out but that was one play. he had shown the ability to create on the fly before and i wish they had tried that more often. the attempt to turn him into a pocket passer was a disaster in every way except the long ball. i just wonder what would have happened if they had let him be creative who knows if anything would have worked with him or not, but one thing i do know is he was jerked around more than any qb in bills history. just about anybody would have failed with that kind of coaching
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