MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted July 4, 2012 Author Posted July 4, 2012 I think you nailed it on Troup. If he's not ready at the start of camp, he may be put on PUP as a strategy while they wait to see who looks good with the pads on. If he's 100% ready he has a shot, but if he's not healthy, there are plenty of bodies. The Bills don't have roster spots to spare for potential. I could be wrong, but I don't think Troup has PS eligibility? DL on IR and PS don't count. The hard math applies to the 53 man roster. I could be mistaken as well....this is actually kind of hard information to track as some sites will list guys who are on the PS or IR'd partway through the season, then the signee who replaces them. The bottom line point is it's very hard to have 10 DL on the 53 man roster. Taking out the 3 STers, that would be 1/5 of the roster and 40% of the D roster. It's not like you can send a DL to play backup LB or DB - not on a quality team, anyway. most 43 teams keep 9 on the 53, and will usually activate 8, sometimes 9. id rather keep the exta guy because merriman/kelsay have age, injury issues. plus kyle is coming off a semi-serious injury...
Thud Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 100% agree. Be honest and stop defending each and every move that is ever made. If the Bills had a history of winning then fine. It may have "filled a need" but it was not a good pick. It was a bad pick (yes John, a bad pick) because it was a REACH to fill a need. Very possible that TROUP was going to be there in the 3rd....so, would you of rather had Gronk and Troup, Gronk and Carrington or Troup and Carrington? Hey Booger. Not trying to be a buzzkill here but your application/resume for General Manager can be accepted at OneBills Drive. I am sure they will gladly look through your qualifications and past work experience and give you a fair shot. If you are not selected I would invite you to apply again elsewhere. Your talents I am sure will quickly be recognized.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 most 43 teams keep 9 on the 53, and will usually activate 8, sometimes 9. id rather keep the exta guy because merriman/kelsay have age, injury issues. plus kyle is coming off a semi-serious injury... That's also my understanding - 8 or 9 DLmen, 7 or 8 active. Just curious, then, why you've expressed the view that the Bills will keep 10? look, edwards is going nowhere. the guy is really solid and has monster moments, ( redskins game). i know they had a couple lineman hurt, but cmon, the guy can play and is good. you want at least one sure thing as a backup at dt... carrington and heard fill out at dt. i say we keep 10 dlineman. mario merriman anderson kelsay johnson dareus williams edwards carrington heard.... Not meaning to pick, but Dwan Edwards has never to my knowledge played on the interior of the DL or in a 4-3. He's a quality football player, no doubt - but will he adapt to a 4-3? Or is he an "odd man out"? Heard is also a guy picked up as a potential 3-4 NT. He's as big as Marcell Dareus, but has nowhere near the speed or the hustle. Can he adapt, or is he now a mismatch to the scheme? It's not at all clear to me who the backups will be. I think DL will be one of the biggest (pun intended) and most interesting battles in training camp. Everyone seems to count Batten as gone, though, or am I missing something?
3rdand12 Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 Moats seems to be favored by the coaches over Batten. who i have heard nothing about at all. When considering who will become part of the DT group this year, think of Wannstadts plans and the defenses he ran. Attack and penetrate. So the big NT guys space eaters and the 3-4 DE will have to change up to succeed. That why we hear about guys losing weight in favor of muscle and speed. Compare to Kyle and Dareus, who would best rotate in for them.
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted July 5, 2012 Author Posted July 5, 2012 That's also my understanding - 8 or 9 DLmen, 7 or 8 active. Just curious, then, why you've expressed the view that the Bills will keep 10? Not meaning to pick, but Dwan Edwards has never to my knowledge played on the interior of the DL or in a 4-3. He's a quality football player, no doubt - but will he adapt to a 4-3? Or is he an "odd man out"? Heard is also a guy picked up as a potential 3-4 NT. He's as big as Marcell Dareus, but has nowhere near the speed or the hustle. Can he adapt, or is he now a mismatch to the scheme? It's not at all clear to me who the backups will be. I think DL will be one of the biggest (pun intended) and most interesting battles in training camp. Everyone seems to count Batten as gone, though, or am I missing something? i think batten is your 7th lb...
Captain Hindsight Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 That's also my understanding - 8 or 9 DLmen, 7 or 8 active. Just curious, then, why you've expressed the view that the Bills will keep 10? Not meaning to pick, but Dwan Edwards has never to my knowledge played on the interior of the DL or in a 4-3. He's a quality football player, no doubt - but will he adapt to a 4-3? Or is he an "odd man out"? Heard is also a guy picked up as a potential 3-4 NT. He's as big as Marcell Dareus, but has nowhere near the speed or the hustle. Can he adapt, or is he now a mismatch to the scheme? It's not at all clear to me who the backups will be. I think DL will be one of the biggest (pun intended) and most interesting battles in training camp. Everyone seems to count Batten as gone, though, or am I missing something? This is such a dumb argument. How can he not handle moving inside 6 inches to occupy blockers?
eball Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 This is such a dumb argument. How can he not handle moving inside 6 inches to occupy blockers? It's actually dumber than you thought. The Wannstedt 4-3 doesn't ask D linemen -- ends OR tackles -- to "occupy blockers." It's an attacking scheme, which is all the more reason I expect Edwards to make the roster. He's an athlete.
Booger Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 Hey Booger. Not trying to be a buzzkill here but your application/resume for General Manager can be accepted at OneBills Drive. I am sure they will gladly look through your qualifications and past work experience and give you a fair shot. If you are not selected I would invite you to apply again elsewhere. Your talents I am sure will quickly be recognized. Why would that be a buzzkill? Pretty sure that the current GM is doing a fine enough job (at least on paper) but I will keep that in mind for when the new search begins someday. Again, amazes me. Reading into your post "Thud" you are defending the pick of Troup and must consider it a great pick along with every other pick the Bills have made over the past 10 years...or maybe in this case, the "Nix" years. It is ok to admit, as a fan, that the Bills may have missed on a pick, or picked a player to early, or missed on a draft, or that a player may not fit the team. All that I am saying is there is no need to bleed out every last lick of "potential" out of a player vs. the reality of the situation. He has never shown anything on the field except being a "project" when healthy. He seemed like a reach, including EVERYONE on this board at the time and most NFL analysts, and he has proven to be just that. This is a sport, but it is also a billion dollar business with a very small window to prove yourself. Guys that need more than 3 years to do so (Ex. McKelvin who for some reason blinds people with his play on the field) are typically NEVER going to make it in the NFL. Sure every LONG once in a while there is a steal out there coming off an injury (Ted Washington) but those are guys have have also generally showed something at one point or another. Troup has never done anything to justify a strong defense. No one had heard of him before he was even drafted. In this case Troup has a mountain to climb. 1. He has a horrific injury and a history of always being injured his short time in the NFL. 2. He was drafted as an NT. For him to make the switch from the 3-4 to a 4-3 is another huge obstacle he must conquer. Please (anyone who knows football on a professional level) do not tell me this is "easy". I am not saying it cannot be done, but it is no where close to being easy. These are the elite of the elite and have spent thousands of hours practicing what they know. To make that switch is not easy. 3. He is buried on the depth chart. If one wants to argue that there is no depth chart yet, he is amongest a sea of DT's looking to make the team. Sure it is an "open" competition but you better believe they will go with a player that has been less injured if they grade out to being close to the same. The great thing is at the end of camp, baring injury, the Bills should have some decent depth no matter who makes the squad. I have no issue of it being Troup if he is healthy and can potentially give us 16 games. If it is going to be one of those seasons where he is on the injury report week in and week out as doubtful then PASS.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 It's actually dumber than you thought. The Wannstedt 4-3 doesn't ask D linemen -- ends OR tackles -- to "occupy blockers." It's an attacking scheme, which is all the more reason I expect Edwards to make the roster. He's an athlete. I really do object to being called "dumber than you thought" or told I have a "dumb argument" by someone who evidently doesn't bother to read what I actually wrote (and may lack understanding of the different roles of DLin a 4-3 vs 3-4) Did I say anything about moving inside to occupy blockers? Let's see what I said: "Not meaning to pick, but Dwan Edwards has never to my knowledge played on the interior of the DL or in a 4-3. He's a quality football player, no doubt - but will he adapt to a 4-3? Or is he an "odd man out"? OK, Esmerelda/Eball/Hindsight/whatever your name is, I don't see anything in there about moving inside a few inches to occupy blockers. That's not what the difference in roles between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT is about, at all. Edwards has played DE in a 3-4, 2 gap technique, his whole career, where his job IS to occupy blockers. Now he's supposed to be playing DT in a 4-3 1 gap where his job is to penetrate the gap and disrupt the backfield. Can he make the adjustment? Maybe. Like I said, he's a quality football player. But it's not a slam-dunk, and I don't understand what the folks saying he's one of the best DT on the team are basing this on since to my knowledge he's never played DT. I sit ready to be corrected by facts and evidence. I also sit ready to correct people who can't (or don't bother) to extend other posters the courtesy of reading before mouthing off a snarky response. i think batten is your 7th lb... Then what about Moats and Scott? Morrison-Shep-Barnett Bradham-Carter-Moats/Scott There's also Scott McKillop, who has that Wannstache connection, and Chris White, who may be another odd-man-out unless he plays lights out.
uticaclub Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 I think alot of people forget Terrence cody was still available
eball Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 I really do object to being called "dumber than you thought" or told I have a "dumb argument" by someone who evidently doesn't bother to read what I actually wrote (and may lack understanding of the different roles of DLin a 4-3 vs 3-4) Did I say anything about moving inside to occupy blockers? Let's see what I said: "Not meaning to pick, but Dwan Edwards has never to my knowledge played on the interior of the DL or in a 4-3. He's a quality football player, no doubt - but will he adapt to a 4-3? Or is he an "odd man out"? OK, Esmerelda/Eball/Hindsight/whatever your name is, I don't see anything in there about moving inside a few inches to occupy blockers. That's not what the difference in roles between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT is about, at all. Edwards has played DE in a 3-4, 2 gap technique, his whole career, where his job IS to occupy blockers. Now he's supposed to be playing DT in a 4-3 1 gap where his job is to penetrate the gap and disrupt the backfield. Can he make the adjustment? Maybe. Like I said, he's a quality football player. But it's not a slam-dunk, and I don't understand what the folks saying he's one of the best DT on the team are basing this on since to my knowledge he's never played DT. I sit ready to be corrected by facts and evidence. I also sit ready to correct people who can't (or don't bother) to extend other posters the courtesy of reading before mouthing off a snarky response. I will freely admit I read not one lick of your post, and I humbly submit to your keyboard lashing. I was responding entirely to Hindsight's comment about "occupying blockers." Mea culpa.
Thirty Year Fan Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 Do people making the Gronk argument stop to think about the fact that maybe having Tom Brady throwing the football to him has helped his career out a bit? Or are we just assuming that he would be the same player, putting up the same stats with just any QB? I think a Hall a Fame QB helps with out question, But he still would be pro bowl level on most teams and yes the Bills blew that one.
3rdand12 Posted July 5, 2012 Posted July 5, 2012 Then what about Moats and Scott? Morrison-Shep-Barnett Bradham-Carter-Moats/Scott There's also Scott McKillop, who has that Wannstache connection, and Chris White, who may be another odd-man-out unless he plays lights out.] Tank Carder and Nigel Bradham will make at least the practice squad obviously. Our starters are locks barring injury with with Nick, Kelvin, and Kirk. Moats name has popped up in the media and i have read he can also play DE in the four three. He can also play silb and mlb "fully understands those positions" might be better said he has not shown US alot i dont think. Because of his flexibilty he gets in and will probably improve in the new D. I really think Bills do consider moving Scott back to be listed as safety. McKillop is a Wannys boy and has been mentioned at least once as having the skill set. Then with Scott moved to Safety "Bradham-Carter-Moats/Scott The other Scott,.. Mckillop is in i would guess. Not sure about Chris White this year. but we maybe should hide a couple on PS if we can.
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted July 5, 2012 Author Posted July 5, 2012 I really do object to being called "dumber than you thought" or told I have a "dumb argument" by someone who evidently doesn't bother to read what I actually wrote (and may lack understanding of the different roles of DLin a 4-3 vs 3-4) Did I say anything about moving inside to occupy blockers? Let's see what I said: "Not meaning to pick, but Dwan Edwards has never to my knowledge played on the interior of the DL or in a 4-3. He's a quality football player, no doubt - but will he adapt to a 4-3? Or is he an "odd man out"? OK, Esmerelda/Eball/Hindsight/whatever your name is, I don't see anything in there about moving inside a few inches to occupy blockers. That's not what the difference in roles between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT is about, at all. Edwards has played DE in a 3-4, 2 gap technique, his whole career, where his job IS to occupy blockers. Now he's supposed to be playing DT in a 4-3 1 gap where his job is to penetrate the gap and disrupt the backfield. Can he make the adjustment? Maybe. Like I said, he's a quality football player. But it's not a slam-dunk, and I don't understand what the folks saying he's one of the best DT on the team are basing this on since to my knowledge he's never played DT. I sit ready to be corrected by facts and evidence. I also sit ready to correct people who can't (or don't bother) to extend other posters the courtesy of reading before mouthing off a snarky response. Then what about Moats and Scott? Morrison-Shep-Barnett Bradham-Carter-Moats/Scott There's also Scott McKillop, who has that Wannstache connection, and Chris White, who may be another odd-man-out unless he plays lights out. nick/shepp/kirk bradham/carder/moats batten scott- backup ss/olb... mckillop and white will get cut. they said mckillop was still running with a slight limp... hes done man...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 I will freely admit I read not one lick of your post, and I humbly submit to your keyboard lashing. I was responding entirely to Hindsight's comment about "occupying blockers." Mea culpa. Thanks for the ack eball. You are a gent! I confess to being testier than I should be. It irks me when people assume that different defensive positions are interchangeable units, as if a quality player in one scheme/one position can be assumed to be great in a different scheme/position. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Anyway we both agree Edwards can play football, and if he's able to make the transition to the 4-3 interior I think he'll make the team, salary and all. I don't think that's a certainty though
Hapless Bills Fan Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 nick/shepp/kirk bradham/carder/moats batten scott- backup ss/olb... mckillop and white will get cut. they said mckillop was still running with a slight limp... hes done man... I don't know that I agree Batten gets the nod over White, or, that they effectively keep 8 linebackers. (I didn't hear about Mckillop's limp - good catch btw) So many unknowns - special teams play, how they feel about the injury status on the DL they keep. Let's say for the sake of argument they keep 8 DL. If they keep 7 LB, they have roster slots for 10 DB. (Obviously the math only gets worse if they tag 9 DL as must-keep) Scott, Brooks, McGee, McKelvin, Rogers, Aaron Williams, Stephon Gilmore, Byrd, Searcy, Wilson...that would say they can't keep any of the what, 8 other 1st and 2nd year guys on the roster? That doesn't seem likely to me. Does it seem likely to you? I think they keep Scott as a swing 7th starter at LB/SS, but only 6 other LB so as to leave space for the most promising of the new guys.
Thud Posted July 6, 2012 Posted July 6, 2012 Why would that be a buzzkill? Pretty sure that the current GM is doing a fine enough job (at least on paper) but I will keep that in mind for when the new search begins someday. Again, amazes me. Reading into your post "Thud" you are defending the pick of Troup and must consider it a great pick along with every other pick the Bills have made over the past 10 years...or maybe in this case, the "Nix" years. It is ok to admit, as a fan, that the Bills may have missed on a pick, or picked a player to early, or missed on a draft, or that a player may not fit the team. All that I am saying is there is no need to bleed out every last lick of "potential" out of a player vs. the reality of the situation. He has never shown anything on the field except being a "project" when healthy. He seemed like a reach, including EVERYONE on this board at the time and most NFL analysts, and he has proven to be just that. This is a sport, but it is also a billion dollar business with a very small window to prove yourself. Guys that need more than 3 years to do so (Ex. McKelvin who for some reason blinds people with his play on the field) are typically NEVER going to make it in the NFL. Sure every LONG once in a while there is a steal out there coming off an injury (Ted Washington) but those are guys have have also generally showed something at one point or another. Troup has never done anything to justify a strong defense. No one had heard of him before he was even drafted. In this case Troup has a mountain to climb. 1. He has a horrific injury and a history of always being injured his short time in the NFL. 2. He was drafted as an NT. For him to make the switch from the 3-4 to a 4-3 is another huge obstacle he must conquer. Please (anyone who knows football on a professional level) do not tell me this is "easy". I am not saying it cannot be done, but it is no where close to being easy. These are the elite of the elite and have spent thousands of hours practicing what they know. To make that switch is not easy. 3. He is buried on the depth chart. If one wants to argue that there is no depth chart yet, he is amongest a sea of DT's looking to make the team. Sure it is an "open" competition but you better believe they will go with a player that has been less injured if they grade out to being close to the same. The great thing is at the end of camp, baring injury, the Bills should have some decent depth no matter who makes the squad. I have no issue of it being Troup if he is healthy and can potentially give us 16 games. If it is going to be one of those seasons where he is on the injury report week in and week out as doubtful then PASS. Not defending the pick. You just proved my point however with another rendition of your excellent football smarts (I am actually being sincere)
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Then what about Moats and Scott? Morrison-Shep-Barnett Bradham-Carter-Moats/Scott There's also Scott McKillop, who has that Wannstache connection, and Chris White, who may be another odd-man-out unless he plays lights out. In Moats case, I'm not sure he's really a 4-3 LB. He was a tweener and a project and his skills seemed to always be best utilized as an edge rusher (like a poor man's Shawne Merriman). In fact, the switch back to the 4-3 after the epic fail of the 3-4 transition could still present more problems at LB as about half of the LBs in the 3-4 on the roster were miscast DL, guys that will be going back to their more natural positions one hopes.
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted July 7, 2012 Author Posted July 7, 2012 batten will beat out white. he can play inside and rush the passer. plus hes bigger and not coming off a knee injury...
Recommended Posts