Nanker Posted June 16, 2012 Posted June 16, 2012 I think one reason Thigpen looked so bad in the preseason is he was new to the roster and the receivers and the lack of OTAs and training reps hurt him mightily. Yes, he knows Chan's offense, but he had zero chance to develop timing and chemistry with the receiver corps last year. That said, I"m all for competition. If he gets beat out for the job - so be it. We'll have a stronger team for that. That scenario is going to be repeated a lot this year. The Bills are going to cut a bunch of players this year that will probably hook up with another team right away. That's a good thing.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 16, 2012 Posted June 16, 2012 Sage, Thigpen took 8 total snaps last year. He didn't lose any games (nor did he win any) based on those 8 snaps. Vince Young played complete games ... and was BEYOND horrible in every single one of them. I'm not saying Thigpen will or should win the number 2 spot. I'm just saying that if we're going to take last year into consideration, then I'd feel a hell of a lot more comfortable with Vince Young being on any sideline other than Buffalo's. gugny, I'm one of those who think it very telling that we didn't see Thigpen last year. There were arguably 2-3 games after the Washington game where we should have seen Thigpen. The fact that we didn't, argues a stunning lack of confidence on the part of our coaches. I can't quite agree that VY was 'beyond awful' in every game he played last year. The win against the Giants wasn't horrid - he did throw 3 INTs, but he also had a decent completion percentage and racked up >250 yds. He also had a reasonable game against NE, passing for >400 yds in a loss. The Seattle game, I grant you - that was beyond awful. Based on last year's performance, it's very hard to understand all the folks who think VY ought to start the minute Fitz has a couple of bad games or that he's a shoo-in over Thiggy. I think competition for the backup role is a good case, and hopefully whoever wins will have more confidence from the coaches.
Kelly the Dog Posted June 16, 2012 Posted June 16, 2012 gugny, I'm one of those who think it very telling that we didn't see Thigpen last year. There were arguably 2-3 games after the Washington game where we should have seen Thigpen. The fact that we didn't, argues a stunning lack of confidence on the part of our coaches. I really have no idea why so many people just assume this. The team and coaches believe Fitzpatrick is the franchise QB. The docs say he can play, and he never mentions his injury to Gailey. Gailey asks him if he can play and he says, in all honesty, yes he can. He may not be playing well but you do not bench him for Tyler Thigpen, and start that ball rolling. You just don't. The reason he was playing poorly had much more to do with the line injuries and WR injuries and Fred injury than his own. There was no reason to put Thigpen in, and it had no bearing whatsoever on the coach's confidence or lack thereof in Thigpen. In fact, the truth is, they didnt even have a #3 QB most of the year let alone a #4 once Brad Smith started practicing as a WR. That shows a stunning amount of confidence in Thigpen.
zazie Posted June 16, 2012 Posted June 16, 2012 This means nothing. Everything you described here, also describes Jamarcus Russell. He's big, cannon for an arm and mobile. Maybe we can get him to run the wildcat. I have seen the Jemarcus vs. VY comparison before and it does not hold water at all. They are both black, that is about it. VY is an experienced, winning qb, and although a bit of a vanity guy, I have never heard he had a lack of work ethic or any problems with the purple drank. Please leave that comaprison at home, folks
Meathead Posted June 16, 2012 Posted June 16, 2012 im so completely sick of dufuses (dufi?) rolling out vys winning pcent as if that means ѕhit. he won games mainly with his feet and backed by a strong defense. his thowing stats tell the story: he is a sub-mediocre passer who makes too many bad mistakes. the eye test also tells a story, that he is easily fooled by nfl defenses so if you need him to use his arm to win you games he will most usually fail. and by now if you dont know that running qbs will eventually injure themselves out of a job, hence the eventual requirement of any starter being a good passer, then it really doesnt even make sense to bother to debate the topic vy is here simply for chan to evaluate whether he can do what nobody else could - hone youngs incredible physical tools into being a good passer. chan knows what he has in thigpen, a very pedestrian qb who doesnt make many mistakes and can manage a game well enough to give you a shot to win. the only way vy wins the job is if he shows enough progress that chan feels he has the ability to follow instructions and continue to progress so that they can have confidence he will respond when he is needed honestly id say the chances are around thirty pcent that vy wins the job. i sure wish we had somebody better than thigpen behind fitz, but the reality is thats likely to be the case at least another season
Rocky Landing Posted June 16, 2012 Posted June 16, 2012 im so completely sick of dufuses (dufi?) rolling out vys winning pcent as if that means ѕhit. he won games mainly with his feet and backed by a strong defense. his thowing stats tell the story: he is a sub-mediocre passer who makes too many bad mistakes. the eye test also tells a story, that he is easily fooled by nfl defenses so if you need him to use his arm to win you games he will most usually fail. and by now if you dont know that running qbs will eventually injure themselves out of a job, hence the eventual requirement of any starter being a good passer, then it really doesnt even make sense to bother to debate the topic vy is here simply for chan to evaluate whether he can do what nobody else could - hone youngs incredible physical tools into being a good passer. chan knows what he has in thigpen, a very pedestrian qb who doesnt make many mistakes and can manage a game well enough to give you a shot to win. the only way vy wins the job is if he shows enough progress that chan feels he has the ability to follow instructions and continue to progress so that they can have confidence he will respond when he is needed honestly id say the chances are around thirty pcent that vy wins the job. i sure wish we had somebody better than thigpen behind fitz, but the reality is thats likely to be the case at least another season I completely disagree with this. But, if, as you say, "his thowing stats tell the story," then look at his throwing stats! Vince Young has consistently thrown around a 60% completion rate, with a career average of 57.9%. His 2011 completion rate with the Eagles was 57.9%. Thigpen has thrown anywhere from the low 30s to the mid 50s. His best season was in '08 with a completion percentage of 54.8%. His completion rate for 2011 was a whopping 37.5%. The thowing stats tell the story indeed!
Beerball Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I really have no idea why so many people just assume this. 0-7 is all I need to know.
Kelly the Dog Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 0-7 is all I need to know. So they should have benched him when he was fully capable of playing a month after giving him a franchise QB contract the first year he is a full time starter? That's real smart.
NoSaint Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 This means nothing. Everything you described here, also describes Jamarcus Russell. He's big, cannon for an arm and mobile. Maybe we can get him to run the wildcat. JR did average .6 ypc at LSU Run a 4.83 40 VY had 7 ypc in college, about 40 tds, ran a 4.58, Not to mention the 30-50 lbs weight gap during their careers. Yes, russel was the obvious comparison as an athlete
ganesh Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I am only wondering which week VY will become the starter due to Fitz injury or maybe even not good play. Thigpen is already an also ran. I hope the Bills end the Tyler Thigpen experiment and give all the 2nd team Reps to Vince Young so that he is prepared if Fitz were to go down. The coaching staff then gets to work with 3 players not 4.
#34fan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I hope the Bills end the Tyler Thigpen experiment and give all the 2nd team Reps to Vince Young so that he is prepared if Fitz were to go down. The coaching staff then gets to work with 3 players not 4. BINGO!
3rdand12 Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 careful what you wish for. If Vince can get his sheet together this year next year he will want a starting job somewhere. where does that leave us? Even though i expect to draft a qb next year and possibly the year we may not have someone who can step on the field for awhile. Thigpen knows his place. But not having him finish the Washington game was just wierd to me. I understand your point Kelly, but i would feel alot better about Thigpen if he had played that game.
zazie Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 keeping thigpen over VY would be very sad. Bring back Levi Brown instead.
Beerball Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 So they should have benched him when he was fully capable of playing a month after giving him a franchise QB contract the first year he is a full time starter? That's real smart. He was hurt, he wasn't "fully capable of playing." He couldn't throw deep when he tried. His accuracy was worse. At the beginning of that slide the team was in a position for the playoffs. If he sat for one game, maybe two who knows how the rest of the season would have developed. Which is it, Gailey was unaware of the injury or Gailey thought he could play? Did you watch those games? Could he play? Yes. Could he play effectively? No. Think Gailey was unaware? That's real smart. Think Gailey thought he was fully capable of playing through that 7 game slide? That's real smart.
NoSaint Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 He was hurt, he wasn't "fully capable of playing." He couldn't throw deep when he tried. His accuracy was worse. At the beginning of that slide the team was in a position for the playoffs. If he sat for one game, maybe two who knows how the rest of the season would have developed. Which is it, Gailey was unaware of the injury or Gailey thought he could play? Did you watch those games? Could he play? Yes. Could he play effectively? No. Think Gailey was unaware? That's real smart. Think Gailey thought he was fully capable of playing through that 7 game slide? That's real smart. Or they didn't think the injury effected him as much as you do?
Beerball Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Or they didn't think the injury effected him as much as you do? I watched the games. Check out his 'deep' throw at the end of the Dolphins game and tell me he was "fully capable" of playing.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I have seen the Jemarcus vs. VY comparison before and it does not hold water at all. They are both black, that is about it. VY is an experienced, winning qb, and although a bit of a vanity guy, I have never heard he had a lack of work ethic or any problems with the purple drank. Please leave that comaprison at home, folks I'm glad I read to the end of the thread before I responded 'cuz you said it better.
NoSaint Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I watched the games. Check out his 'deep' throw at the end of the Dolphins game and tell me he was "fully capable" of playing. Without pulling it up, what I was saying wasn't that it had zero effect but that those second half numbers, though not as nice as his September ones, weren't much off his career averages. Sure a rib injury, and losing several weapons didn't help him but up and down play, accuracy/consistency has been an issue for him his entire career. I'd hope they have some sort of baseline testing to evaluate him against as the season goes. That said, it's a debate like saying who is responsible for any given draft pick.... We just don't know behind closed doors and with so many factors it's just a matter of guessing. I completely disagree with this. But, if, as you say, "his thowing stats tell the story," then look at his throwing stats! Vince Young has consistently thrown around a 60% completion rate, with a career average of 57.9%. His 2011 completion rate with the Eagles was 57.9%. Thigpen has thrown anywhere from the low 30s to the mid 50s. His best season was in '08 with a completion percentage of 54.8%. His completion rate for 2011 was a whopping 37.5%. The thowing stats tell the story indeed! Let's throw out his 3-8 performance and not call that 37.5 for the season. It's about as useless as me arguing he had only 5 incompletions all year Otherwise, sure- Vince has proven a lot more
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I really have no idea why so many people just assume this. The team and coaches believe Fitzpatrick is the franchise QB. The docs say he can play, and he never mentions his injury to Gailey. Gailey asks him if he can play and he says, in all honesty, yes he can. He may not be playing well but you do not bench him for Tyler Thigpen, and start that ball rolling. You just don't. The reason he was playing poorly had much more to do with the line injuries and WR injuries and Fred injury than his own. There was no reason to put Thigpen in, and it had no bearing whatsoever on the coach's confidence or lack thereof in Thigpen. In fact, the truth is, they didnt even have a #3 QB most of the year let alone a #4 once Brad Smith started practicing as a WR. That shows a stunning amount of confidence in Thigpen. Why do you think people "just assume this"? 1) Fitz father is on the record saying after the Washington hit, he was amazed he could play based on how hard it was for him to walk across the room. 2) Stevie has said at the worst, he couldn't get a play out in a single breath in the huddle 3) It was clear watching Fitz in the couple games after Wash. that he wasn't turning freely to see both sides of the field. Several here commented at the time. 4) Washington completion percentage: 77.8% 262 yds NYJ 48.4% 191 yds. 5) Wood was still playing against the Jets. Was injured in Week 11 partway through Dallas game We're supposed to believe that Chan is so naive, he can't see how Fitz is walking and talking, doesn't talk to the docs himself after that stunning plummet of 30 points in completion percentage during the Jets game, doesn't request more evaluation, he just blythely takes the word of his player who is clearly a "gamer" and is gonna tell him he's fine? The reason to put Thigpen in and let Fitz rest and heal is because Fitz was injured and would heal better with some time off than with 300 lb gorillas body-slamming him and landing on top of his broken ribs every week. There is no "ball" to start rolling when you pull your starter due to injury. The only reason not to put him in is that you think a gimpy Fitz with hindered throwing is still your much better chance to win than Thigpen. A synonym for this belief system is "lack of confidence" in your backup. You may disagree but please - there is observation and rationale behind this belief, it's not something some of us "just assume".
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 vy is here simply for chan to evaluate whether he can do what nobody else could - hone youngs incredible physical tools into being a good passer. chan knows what he has in thigpen, a very pedestrian qb who doesnt make many mistakes and can manage a game well enough to give you a shot to win. the only way vy wins the job is if he shows enough progress that chan feels he has the ability to follow instructions and continue to progress so that they can have confidence he will respond when he is needed I agree with the futility of throwing out W-L percentage as a QB evaluation. I agree that VY is here to evaluate whether he can actually learn to manage a game and read the D. I don't think the facts bear out that Thigpen is a "very pedestrian QB who doesn't make many mistakes". His career completion percentage is lower than VY, he's thrown almost as many INTs as TDs (18 to 21) and he doesn't throw that much or that long - typically <200 yds per game, one game in his career throwing >300 yds. It's a better TD to INT ratio than VY but really, for passing, about the same typical game yardage as VY with somewhat lower completions and less threat to run. Still I agree, people who feel VY is a shoo-in to beat out Thigpen, well, VY needs to stay in the book and work double-time in the film room, that's all.
Recommended Posts