tomato can Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Here's the difference: you went. My point was about a product or service that no one wants. You and other people not only wanted the first products (Cubs vs Redsox, movie with girlfriend), but then purchased other products you wanted (beer, hot, soda, popcorn). If NO ONE wanted those products, raising the prices for those products would not make more people want them. Not to mention, if you find the prices too high for baseball and movies and don't want to pay those prices, you may have options. We have a cheap theater near us that plays movies on the tail end of their run for $2. When I was in NC, we'd go see the Durham Bulls play for pennies. In other word, if you don't like the "handsome profit" that baseball teams and movie theaters make, you have a choice to not attend. When the federal government starts overcharging you for services you don't want or need, where do you go? Nowhere. They've got you by the shortncurlies. As a result, the government just gets more and more bloated by adding more and more fees to hire more and more people because they don't NEED handsome profits. They just need more money. Your money. And if you don't give it to them, they will take everything you own and put you away. Point taken! You are correct. I have a choice not to attend. What Federal Government Services are you being horribly over charged for that you don't want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 What Federal Government Services are you being horribly over charged for that you don't want? Considering all the services he pays for and how few he actually uses, probably all of 'em. I can think of about a dozen Native American education programs at Education, for starters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Considering all the services he pays for and how few he actually uses, probably all of 'em. I can think of about a dozen Native American education programs at Education, for starters... He wants water... He pays. Shut it right off at Parker... Dry 'em out in two days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomato can Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Considering all the services he pays for and how few he actually uses, probably all of 'em. I can think of about a dozen Native American education programs at Education, for starters... Were comparing apples to oranges. There are people that don't want to pay for abortion and there are people that don't want to pay for the wars we have to fight....There is a great alternative...........move to Pakistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 November 2011 was the start of the Major Chicago Infrastructure Project & South Side Rail Crossing Project that created more than 1,200 jobs and will provide a major boost to the regional economy. The project located at 130th Torrence Avenue and the Northfolk Southern Railroad just outside of the Ford Motor Plant is a $150 Million dollar project. The project involves lowering 130th Street and Torrence Avenue to fit under two new bridges carrying the Norfolk Southern Railroad tracks. The two streets and the tracks currently intersect, resulting in more than 200 hours in delay for the 32,000 vehicles that drive through the crossing daily. Trucks leaving the Ford Motor Company assembly plant nearby can wait as long as 20 minutes because of passing trains. Other components of the project include lowering Brainard Avenue to connect directly to 130th Street and Torrence Avenue, realigning the South Shore commuter line over Torrence Avenue and the Norfolk Southern tracks and adding pedestrian bridges and paths. Construction will be complete in 2015. The State of Illinois & The Federal Government are providing 80% of the money for the project. The remaining 20% is coming from Northfolk Southern Railroad, Northern Commuter Transportation District, City of Chicago, & Ford Motor Company. While this project is a pain for me trying to get to the interstate highway every day I ride by there every day and see all the construction workers, Iron Workers, & Crane Operators, ect, out there on the job site WORKING every day! Other Chicago transportation projects currently under construction include: the $300 million Wacker Drive reconstruction, the $33 million Congress Parkway bridge rehabilitation and more than $680 million in capital funding for the Chicago Transit Authority. This is Public & Private investment on these major projects. The businesses in downtown Chicago pay a pretty nice sum in real estate taxes and they are demanding these major projects to be started and that their tax dollars are put into these projects to get people back to work and the economy growing again! I dont want to hear that crap about bad news for the company waiting to fix a bridge or a road. These hard working men & women are out there daily working and doing a dam fine job and bringing home the bacon baby! Crime may very well be down in some area's but its up in other area's. Chicago in 2005 had 13,900 Police Officers. Policeman that retired, were injured on the job, or left the Police Force were not replaced because of people like you screaming we need to cut the Police Force so the Chicago Police Department has just over 11,000 Police Officers today. Guess what crime is up in Chicago. Professionals leaving downtown Chicago are having to deal with flash mobs of teenagers & young adults attacking them for their cell phones, lap tops, IPADS, & wallets while trying to commute home from work on the train! My poor neighbor across the street came home from work to find some criminal took apart his central air conditioning unit for the copper and scrap metal. The Neighbor around the block had his garage broken into and his lawn mower, air compressor, & snow blower all stolen. Crime might be down in Big Mule, Mississippi but its not here and a lot of other area's! Did some research on Fireman. The National Fire Protection Association tracks and keeps data on fireman & fire related issues. There are 1,103,300 fire fighters in the United States. 335,150 (30%) are career fire fighters. 768,150 (70%) are volunteer fire fighters. You have no arguement left. 30% are getting a good salary, benefits, & pension. The rest are volunteers. What about that mass supply chasing lower demaned??? You sound like a guy that is more interested in more mass unemployment than a guy calling for economic growth. Its on the parents not the teachers to send these kids to school ready to learn. Quit blaming the teachers. Talk about supply and demnad. Is there less supply of children these days??? Yeah thanks Actually I had no problem with Walker and what he was trying to achieve. Public sector workers are needed. All Walker was trying to do was get them to realize unsustainable pension packages and free health benefits can't continue. Walker wasn't trying to fire those workers. Exactly Include all union workers! Put down your union banner and do some economic research, especially why Japan had a lost decade after their financial collapse. I'll give you a hint, they were full subscribers that spending on infrastructure will lift the economy. Yet, when looking at the results, it turned out to be opposite. The spending was from borrowed funds and once the temporary stimulus that was created during the construction was gone, so was any economic benefit. So, public debt went up while the NET economy did not grow. This is not a difficult concept for anyone who understands that money doesn't grow on trees and that the public sector cannot generate NET economic growth without the private sector creating new net worth. Another hint, when arguing here, try to come up with data that backs your point and not type randon collection of factoids that have little bearing on the discussion. It will do wonders to your idiot meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomato can Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Put down your union banner and do some economic research, especially why Japan had a lost decade after their financial collapse. I'll give you a hint, they were full subscribers that spending on infrastructure will lift the economy. Yet, when looking at the results, it turned out to be opposite. The spending was from borrowed funds and once the temporary stimulus that was created during the construction was gone, so was any economic benefit. So, public debt went up while the NET economy did not grow. This is not a difficult concept for anyone who understands that money doesn't grow on trees and that the public sector cannot generate NET economic growth without the private sector creating new net worth. Another hint, when arguing here, try to come up with data that backs your point and not type randon collection of factoids that have little bearing on the discussion. It will do wonders to your idiot meter. Your the nitwit that said great for Ford Motor Company but bad for the construction company waiting to fix a bridge or road. Then I provide you with a litany of projects where the construction company is being put to work & you come back with Japan & the lost decade! The problem with you guys that think you know everything about economic growth is you are reading the book the hard working people of America wrote many year ago and you want to claim its all wrong! The conservative premise that government itself cannot create jobs but government can provide a framework in which economic growth can occur. In order for the private sector to create new net worth they need good roads, bridges, ports, & rail system's! A good sound infrastructure! Without that the flow of good and services will come to crawl! You can dismiss the data a provided as a collection of factoids with no baring on the discussion but they are facts that are relevent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 (edited) Your the nitwit that said great for Ford Motor Company but bad for the construction company waiting to fix a bridge or road. Then I provide you with a litany of projects where the construction company is being put to work & you come back with Japan & the lost decade! The problem with you guys that think you know everything about economic growth is you are reading the book the hard working people of America wrote many year ago and you want to claim its all wrong! The conservative premise that government itself cannot create jobs but government can provide a framework in which economic growth can occur. In order for the private sector to create new net worth they need good roads, bridges, ports, & rail system's! A good sound infrastructure! Without that the flow of good and services will come to crawl! You can dismiss the data a provided as a collection of factoids with no baring on the discussion but they are facts that are relevent! Please stop with the tired broken record. We get it, we needs roads. And if it wasn't for the brave union workers who toil under intense working conditions while fighting off scurvy and malaria as the boss man won't give them a 10 minute cigarette break or makes them dig their own well for dingy drinking water, the world economy would just stop. We get it. What you don't get is where does the money come from to pay for the insfrastrcuture. What you also don't get is that if poor infrastructure stands in the way of private sector missing out on profits, that infrastructure gets fixed very fast, or the private sector will find a way to fix it on its own. You parrot the same argument that was sold under the original stimulus. I'm betting you were on the front line holding the spade blade for the millions of shovel-ready jobs. Yet, here we are in Summer or Recovery Part Trois, and the economy is getting worse. How can that be? Surely if you spent $800 billion, you should have seen the promised multiplier that was supposed to have added $3 trillion to the economy by now. Where is it? Perhaps if you learn something about history, you would understand that spending on public works only buys you time until the private sector gets back on its feet, and you better hope that the public spending doesn't get too out of hand in the interim to choke off any semblance of a real recovery. And read what I said about Ford - it's good for them, but bad for whoever lost the contract that Ford got. Ford gets paid, the other guy doesn't. So the net effect is ZERO. That's what I'm talking about - public spending is a zero sum game - if you can wrap your spade around that concept. Edited June 26, 2012 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Private charities handled it just fine, once upon a time. Probably better and more efficiently than government, in fact. That's debatable. Once upon a time, there were all kind of "horror stories" from charities...which is where this whole, "government can solve it" mess started. Unfortunately, there was a huge overreaction. Some people like to call it...the 60's. The question is: if a charity doesn't deliver uniform service to everyone, is that equitable? That's the fundamental argument for why the state should do something that charities do: everyone gets all services, with no string attached. That's the argument. I didn't say it wasn't retarded. Ultimately, government is best used the same way as duct tape is best used: something that gets the job done for right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Please stop with the tired broken record. We get it, we needs roads. And if it wasn't for the brave union workers who toil under intense working conditions while fighting off scurvy and malaria as the boss man won't give them a 10 minute cigarette break or makes them dig their own well for dingy drinking water, the world economy would just stop. We get it. What you don't get is where does the money come from to pay for the insfrastrcuture. What you also don't get is that if poor infrastructure stands in the way of private sector missing out on profits, that infrastructure gets fixed very fast, or the private sector will find a way to fix it on its own. You parrot the same argument that was sold under the original stimulus. I'm betting you were on the front line holding the spade blade for the millions of shovel-ready jobs. Yet, here we are in Summer or Recovery Part Trois, and the economy is getting worse. How can that be? Surely if you spent $800 billion, you should have seen the promised multiplier that was supposed to have added $3 trillion to the economy by now. Where is it? Perhaps if you learn something about history, you would understand that spending on public works only buys you time until the private sector gets back on its feet, and you better hope that the public spending doesn't get too out of hand in the interim to choke off any semblance of a real recovery. And read what I said about Ford - it's good for them, but bad for whoever lost the contract that Ford got. Ford gets paid, the other guy doesn't. So the net effect is ZERO. That's what I'm talking about - public spending is a zero sum game - if you can wrap your spade around that concept. Oh, c'mon now. The only way the stimulus didn't work is that it wasn't big enough! We also need more "Cash for Clunker" programs so we can eventually have all green cars that operate off windmills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Oh, c'mon now. The only way the stimulus didn't work is that it wasn't big enough! You know....that's the excuse. And, if you don't know anything about economics...or...if your name is Paul Krugman, and you think everybody but you is an idiot, you think this excuse will be effective. The problem for Krugman et al? They aren't as smart as they think. They expect people to say "No, it was too big." And then, we can have a fine game saying "too big/not big enough", with Krugman lining up his constituency on his side, and saying "well, I did win the Nobel Prize after all, so, obviously they are the idiots". But, we aren't that dumb. The problem with the stimulus was that it wasn't targeted properly. In fact it had no chance. A Keynesian like Krugman should know this. So, why doesn't he? BS. He does. The fact is that the "too big" thing is merely a distraction from incompetent, or intentionally corrupt, way it was done. You would think that a Keynesian would know how to implement a Keynesian stimulus properly. Krugman knows it wasn't done right. In fact, he knows that it was overburdened with the green, non-multiplier idiocy and payoffs for the various Democratic city machines. None of which hits on standard, well known multipliers that we've all heard about for years. But....saying it wasn't big enough, as in big enough to do a proper stimulus, AND, the green nonsense and payoffs...sounds better. See, that's the trap, they want us to say that multipliers never work...so they can haul out their cherry picked data that proves they do. The problem for Paul Krugman is that he just isn't that smart...in politics. He should stick to economics. His little trap is banal, to the point of hilarity. His "team" failed at running their own game plan. It's not like it isn't the same game plan they've been running for 60 years, so, it;s not like we don't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomato can Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Please stop with the tired broken record. We get it, we needs roads. And if it wasn't for the brave union workers who toil under intense working conditions while fighting off scurvy and malaria as the boss man won't give them a 10 minute cigarette break or makes them dig their own well for dingy drinking water, the world economy would just stop. We get it. What you don't get is where does the money come from to pay for the insfrastrcuture. What you also don't get is that if poor infrastructure stands in the way of private sector missing out on profits, that infrastructure gets fixed very fast, or the private sector will find a way to fix it on its own. You parrot the same argument that was sold under the original stimulus. I'm betting you were on the front line holding the spade blade for the millions of shovel-ready jobs. Yet, here we are in Summer or Recovery Part Trois, and the economy is getting worse. How can that be? Surely if you spent $800 billion, you should have seen the promised multiplier that was supposed to have added $3 trillion to the economy by now. Where is it? Perhaps if you learn something about history, you would understand that spending on public works only buys you time until the private sector gets back on its feet, and you better hope that the public spending doesn't get too out of hand in the interim to choke off any semblance of a real recovery. And read what I said about Ford - it's good for them, but bad for whoever lost the contract that Ford got. Ford gets paid, the other guy doesn't. So the net effect is ZERO. That's what I'm talking about - public spending is a zero sum game - if you can wrap your spade around that concept. I get it GG! I understand everything you are saying. I am well aware that the private sector needs to create new NET worth and economic growth. Of course the Government can not lead the way in those area's the private sector has to, and yes Government should let the private sector do there thing and stop with the unreal regulations that make things impossible at times. But Government does play an important role in the economy, espically when we have a recession like the one we had. Those public works projects are extremely important to the private sector contractors in tough times and extremely important to businesses flow of good & services. Sure spending has to be controlled and not get to out of hand. Yet you dismiss those extremely important public works projects. It almost seems like you would rather see those contractors starve a little more until the private sector gets back on its feet to try and prove your theroy as the only correct way. Yes the economy is much better off with the private sector driving the car and the Government riding shotgun. However I am not ignorant enough to act as if Government or Public Employees have no role. I certainly wont be crying and screaming to fire those people when times are tough and the private sector is hurting. That's is the reason this Country is so divided and we have Politicians that refuse to budget an inch and why nothing ever gets done right today. That is exactly how you have persented yourself in this discussion, my way is right, you dont know anything, and i'm taking my ball and going home! Get over yourself, the world dont owe you anything! Give an inch and learn to see the other person's point of view! By the way the private sector don't fix anything that ain't theirs! Ford was so unhappy with the traffic boondoggle with the long freight trains and all the traffic that they made the Government start that public works project. Ford threatened the City if the project was not done and soon they would close the Plant on Chicago's southside and move to Atlanata! Not wanting to lose those important jobs, the Feds, State of Illinois, & City of Chicago are footing 85% of that 150 million dollar project. Ford, the railroad, & South Shore Rail that takes commuters to downtown Chicago each kicked in 5%. They benefit the most and payed the least. Those are the FACTS and I can prove it I need to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 This is not a difficult concept for anyone who understands that money doesn't grow on trees and that the public sector cannot generate NET economic growth without the private sector creating new net worth. A few points. - As you said in one of your first posts in this thread, "unless the government (fed) prints new money," which it does every year. The Fed monetizes government debt every year consistent with expanding the money supply to promote growth. The fact that the Fed monetizes part of the Federal government's debt every year means the public sector helps create new net wealth for the private sector. It' a free lunch, because, after all, money is simply a claim on resources, and the government has a monopoly on its creation. How much has the Fed monetized over the past two years? And how many trillions of $s are corps hoarding? That's no coincidence. - So, really, that last part of your sentence should read, the private sector can't create new net worth without the government running a deficit. - So the Keynesian multiplier is dead, eh? Which means there is no multiplier from private spending either? There is a multiplier; it's simply gotten smaller as the propensity to import increases. The more we spend on imports, the smaller any impact from spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomato can Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 A few points. - As you said in one of your first posts in this thread, "unless the government (fed) prints new money," which it does every year. The Fed monetizes government debt every year consistent with expanding the money supply to promote growth. The fact that the Fed monetizes part of the Federal government's debt every year means the public sector helps create new net wealth for the private sector. It' a free lunch, because, after all, money is simply a claim on resources, and the government has a monopoly on its creation. How much has the Fed monetized over the past two years? And how many trillions of $s are corps hoarding? That's no coincidence. - So, really, that last part of your sentence should read, the private sector can't create new net worth without the government running a deficit. - So the Keynesian multiplier is dead, eh? Which means there is no multiplier from private spending either? There is a multiplier; it's simply gotten smaller as the propensity to import increases. The more we spend on imports, the smaller any impact from spending. A voice of reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Welcome back professor. Hope the Elmwood Strip is treating you well this summer. A few points. - As you said in one of your first posts in this thread, "unless the government (fed) prints new money," which it does every year. The Fed monetizes government debt every year consistent with expanding the money supply to promote growth. The fact that the Fed monetizes part of the Federal government's debt every year means the public sector helps create new net wealth for the private sector. It' a free lunch, because, after all, money is simply a claim on resources, and the government has a monopoly on its creation. How much has the Fed monetized over the past two years? And how many trillions of $s are corps hoarding? That's no coincidence. - So, really, that last part of your sentence should read, the private sector can't create new net worth without the government running a deficit. You prefer to call it deficit spending I prefer to call it borrowing from the future. If you read all my responses, I highlight the risks that the monetary & spending stimuli have if the private sector doesn't rebound. And thanks for reminding us that corporate America is sitting on a cash horde. I wonder why they're not redeploying that cash and are happier parking it for 0.5% ROI? They must have missed the last dozen WH press conferences urging the private sector to get back to work, at the same time the regulatory & bureaucratic noose is tighteing. Meanwhile, POTUS can wallow in the glory of wrongheaded moves to spur business investing, like playing around with the accelerated depreciation rules (another Bush 2.0 policy) with no tangible benefit coming from it, because you're rewarding people for something they would have done anyway. - So the Keynesian multiplier is dead, eh? Which means there is no multiplier from private spending either? There is a multiplier; it's simply gotten smaller as the propensity to import increases. The more we spend on imports, the smaller any impact from spending. Where was the imports excuse when the economy was humming at north of 3%. Did China suddenly become an export power in 2009? Of course there's a multiplier from the private sector. Although I love how economists take basic truisms and create fancy words to explain them away. That multiplier, or more correctly - private wealth creation - occurs because not by simply throwing money down on the table to prop up demand, but allocating it more efficiently where you will have greater opportunities for growth. It's why when GE makes a decision to build a $2 billion plant, it's based on a thoroughly vetted RoI process. Meanwhile tossing $2 billion into shovel ready projects would not go through the same scrutiny and you run a much higher probability that the money will be used to fund a public golf course or some other pet boondoggle for the recipient. I'm sure that you saw Blinder's POS op-ed in the Journal yesterday, where he restates the tired talking points of infrastructure spending, and the end of civilization because the holy trinity (police, firemen, teachers) is going to be disbanded. Yet, I see plenty of major public works going on all over the place. Police are still on the job, fires are being extinguished and teachers are on recess. So, where's this doomsday scenario where the evil conservatives want to throw everyone out on the street? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) Welcome back professor. Hope the Elmwood Strip is treating you well this summer. And thanks for reminding us that corporate America is sitting on a cash horde. I wonder why they're not redeploying that cash and are happier parking it for 0.5% ROI? They must have missed the last dozen WH press conferences urging the private sector to get back to work, at the same time the regulatory & bureaucratic noose is tighteing. Meanwhile, POTUS can wallow in the glory of wrongheaded moves to spur business investing, like playing around with the accelerated depreciation rules (another Bush 2.0 policy) with no tangible benefit coming from it, because you're rewarding people for something they would have done anyway. Where was the imports excuse when the economy was humming at north of 3%. Did China suddenly become an export power in 2009? Of course there's a multiplier from the private sector. Although I love how economists take basic truisms and create fancy words to explain them away. That multiplier, or more correctly - private wealth creation - occurs because not by simply throwing money down on the table to prop up demand, but allocating it more efficiently where you will have greater opportunities for growth. It's why when GE makes a decision to build a $2 billion plant, it's based on a thoroughly vetted RoI process. Meanwhile tossing $2 billion into shovel ready projects would not go through the same scrutiny and you run a much higher probability that the money will be used to fund a public golf course or some other pet boondoggle for the recipient. I'm sure that you saw Blinder's POS op-ed in the Journal yesterday, where he restates the tired talking points of infrastructure spending, and the end of civilization because the holy trinity (police, firemen, teachers) is going to be disbanded. Yet, I see plenty of major public works going on all over the place. Police are still on the job, fires are being extinguished and teachers are on recess. So, where's this doomsday scenario where the evil conservatives want to throw everyone out on the street? Crap! i was trying to find something to disagree with here.... Not sure what your point is about the multiplier and 3% growth? There has always and will be a multiplier from injections of new spending, whether that comes from financed spending of businesses or financed spending of government. Ahhh...nothing like Elmwood in the summer...next time you're in town I'd be happy to buy you a beer at Blue Monk (that goes for anyone else at PPP or TBD). Cheers. Edited June 27, 2012 by TPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinElma Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Ahhh...nothing like Elmwood in the summer...next time you're in town I'd be happy to buy you a beer at Blue Monk (that goes for anyone else at PPP or TBD). Cheers. I'll pass. You'd have to bribe me with something more than beer to endure your Keynesian schtick for more than 5 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I'll pass. You'd have to bribe me with something more than beer to endure your Keynesian schtick for more than 5 minutes. Well then, maybe you could !@#$ing talk about the Buffalo Bills you !@#$ing Prick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 I'll pass. You'd have to bribe me with something more than beer to endure your Keynesian schtick for more than 5 minutes. I suppose I should've given a caveat to that offer, no racists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) Ahhh...nothing like Elmwood in the summer...next time you're in town I'd be happy to buy you a beer at Blue Monk (that goes for anyone else at PPP or TBD). Cheers. Good possibility. Will roll into town last week of July. Will very likely be in the hood, or more specifically on one of the rooftops above Cole's. PS - Is the Blue Monk the old Merlin? Heard great things about the place. So yes, it's on after a visit to Albright/Burchfield Penney Edited June 27, 2012 by GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Good possibility. Will roll into town last week of July. Will very likely be in the hood, or more specifically on one of the rooftops above Cole's. PS - Is the Blue Monk the old Merlin? Heard great things about the place. So yes, it's on after a visit to Albright/Burchfield Penney Yes, it's the old merlin's. Shatzel (from Coles) opened it. If you like Belgians (I'm an IPA man myself), he gets the best in the world on tap. The food is great too. In that last week I'm will taking the fam camping at Keuka Lake 25 and 26, so any day before or after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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