Hiring/firing public workers

[tomato can]

The discussion at hand is economic growth. The public sector does not generate net economic growth, because it's largely a distribution of income. The Keynesians on this site argue that the large public sector absorbs an economic shock because you will always have a base level of demand for services and that will prevent a depression. The idiots on this site will argue an extension of that theory, that government spending will actually create net economic growth of its own. Sounds fine in a textbook. But in the real world, that last example has been utter crap, because the public sector just transfers money from one pocket to another. But more importantly, the public sector has never been as good in allocating the cash to areas which will actually grow the economy, as opposed to throwing money at pet projects that have no economic return.

 

And as far as the holy trinity of police, fire & teachers, the cost cost are coming in areas that are not affecting the effectiveness of those jobs. Crime statistics continue to fall. There are less fires. And the schools are still failing.

 

I agree with you that throwing money at pet projects that have no economic return has to stop. Tell me how the City Of Chicago and 1,200 other Police agencies placing orders for new Police interceptor vehicles is not creating economic growth? Ford Motor Company added 1,100 more jobs. Those 1,100 workers now have a chance to purchase a home, a car, going shopping, invest their retirement in the stock market, ect. Looks to me like the money is going back into the economy and allowing it to grow.

 

Police, Fire & teachers are extremely important jobs. Crime sure isn't falling here in Chicago. Homicides totals in Chicago, 2012 compared to 2011 :

 

Month 2011 2012

January 28 40

February 24 28

March 23 53

April 30 40

May 38 50

June 33 33

Total 176 244

 

Those number are just for homicides. Less fires? Really??? That is the best you can come up with. I'm not willing to cut the number of fireman and take the chance to someone loses a life in a fire because of a man power shortage. Yeah the schools are failing. I'm sure you seen the video of those school kids verbally abusing the bus driver. Imagine having 10 of them in a classroom of 40 kids. It can become awfully difficult to teach the class when you have 10 circus clown disrupting the entire class. Schooling starts at home. Parents need to prepare their children for school so they can go there and learn. Getting rid of teachers and not attempting to educate children is the wrong answer. Parents need to get off their lazy behinds and take an active role in their kids life's and start raising them to be productive. Don't blame the teachers, i'm sure there are some bad ones but I am sure the majority are there putting in an honest days work and doing the best they can to try and educate the children. I got an education in the public school system here in Chicago and have done well for myself. I'm not rich but I am certainly not poor.

Edited June 23, 2012 by tomato can

[WorldTraveller]

. I sort of view it like the laffer curve, and right now it is too heavily weighted in favor of the pubic sector. The unemployment rate for public sector is below 5% and for the private sector it's near 10% according to the BLS . The average salary with benefits is nearly 20k a year higher than the average private sector worker. Which means that the near 10% unemployment private sector continues to fund the below 5% public sector employees who are making considerably more.

 

Yet the solution from progressives to stimulate the economy,despite this huge despairity between private and public sector employment and total wages/benefits, is to bail out state and local government public sector workers with more federal funded private sector dollars?

[GG]

I agree with you that throwing money at pet projects that have no economic return has to stop. Tell me how the City Of Chicago and 1,200 other Police agencies placing orders for new Police interceptor vehicles is not creating economic growth? Ford Motor Company added 1,100 more jobs. Those 1,100 workers now have a chance to purchase a home, a car, going shopping, invest their retirement in the stock market, ect. Looks to me like the money is going back into the economy and allowing it to grow.

 

Read what I wrote. NET ECONOMIC GROWTH. Chicago didn't create net economic growth because the money that is going to Ford is taken from money that could go to other uses. Chicago did not create new wealth, it just shifted it from one vendor to the other. Good news for Ford, but possibly bad news for the construction company that's been waiting to fix a bridge, road, etc. That's why the Keynesian multiplier is crap. You don't create net economic activity by robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

Police, Fire & teachers are extremely important jobs. Crime sure isn't falling here in Chicago. Homicides totals in Chicago, 2012 compared to 2011 :

 

Month 2011 2012

January 28 40

February 24 28

March 23 53

April 30 40

May 38 50

June 33 33

Total 176 244

 

Those number are just for homicides.

 

Yes, let's use the murder spurt by Chicagoland gangs to talk about the US crime rate trends.

 

My pet statistics are better than your pet statistics

 

Link 1

 

Less fires? Really??? That is the best you can come up with. I'm not willing to cut the number of fireman and take the chance to someone loses a life in a fire because of a man power shortage.

 

Yes, a lot less fires compared to 60-100 years ago, because that's when the big cities located their firehouses. In any other industry somebody would recognize the obvious of too much supply chasing lower demand.

 

Yeah the schools are failing. I'm sure you seen the video of those school kids verbally abusing the bus driver. Imagine having 10 of them in a classroom of 40 kids. It can become awfully difficult to teach the class when you have 10 circus clown disrupting the entire class. Schooling starts at home. Parents need to prepare their children for school so they can go there and learn. Getting rid of teachers and not attempting to educate children is the wrong answer. Parents need to get off their lazy behinds and take an active role in their kids life's and start raising them to be productive. Don't blame the teachers, i'm sure there are some bad ones but I am sure the majority are there putting in an honest days work and doing the best they can to try and educate the children. I got an education in the public school system here in Chicago and have done well for myself. I'm not rich but I am certainly not poor.

 

Yes, let's get the violin for the holy trinity. Stop with the strawmen arguments. Nobody wants the holy trinity eliminated. But these fields should also be open to criticism and the hard knocks school of cost control. Everybody knows that employment in these fields should not be as variable as in other sectors of the economy, like retail for example. But there's no reason that the holy trinity should expect to have the same overtime rules, generous benefits & other perks the unions got during good times when the economy is still crapping out.

[IDBillzFan]

You can't stand people working in the public sector.

Please stop with the hyperbole. Conservatives like myself have NO problem with people working in the public sector. We need fireman, policemen, librarians and streetsweepers.

 

Here's where people like me have a problem. I'll do this slow and simply for you.

 

1) Local, state and federal governments are not accountable to a bottom line. There's no P/L accountability. And as a result, there is no accountability for the spending. Anyone truly paying attention to a conservative like myself knows we do NOT have a problem paying taxes; we have a problem payment taxes in a world where spending is not held accountable.

 

2) When governments run out of money, they don't do what a business does and downsize or cut back; they increase their fee. You simply can not do that in the private sector and survive. There is no world where -- if I make a product or provide a service no one wants -- I can fix my cash flow problem by raising the price on the product or service that no one wants. The ability to randomly take more money with no accountability increases the lack of efficiency, and ANY business person can tell you the FIRST step to increasing margins is to reduce inefficiencies. The government knows nothing of this, and wastes our money regularly because of its inefficiency.

 

Progressives see things only as black or white: if we say we want less government, you say we want no government; if we say we want to downsize the public employee payrolls, you say we can't stand public employees at all.

 

While the past few years have been painful for virtually everyone, the upside is that it will be another 50 years before this country elects another leaderless, over-his-head progressive dolt like Obama simply because he can read out loud very well.

[fjl2nd]

Please stop with the hyperbole. Conservatives like myself have NO problem with people working in the public sector. We need fireman, policemen, librarians and streetsweepers.

 

Here's where people like me have a problem. I'll do this slow and simply for you.

 

1) Local, state and federal governments are not accountable to a bottom line. There's no P/L accountability. And as a result, there is no accountability for the spending. Anyone truly paying attention to a conservative like myself knows we do NOT have a problem paying taxes; we have a problem payment taxes in a world where spending is not held accountable.

 

2) When governments run out of money, they don't do what a business does and downsize or cut back; they increase their fee. You simply can not do that in the private sector and survive. There is no world where -- if I make a product or provide a service no one wants -- I can fix my cash flow problem by raising the price on the product or service that no one wants. The ability to randomly take more money with no accountability increases the lack of efficiency, and ANY business person can tell you the FIRST step to increasing margins is to reduce inefficiencies. The government knows nothing of this, and wastes our money regularly because of its inefficiency.

 

Progressives see things only as black or white: if we say we want less government, you say we want no government; if we say we want to downsize the public employee payrolls, you say we can't stand public employees at all.

 

While the past few years have been painful for virtually everyone, the upside is that it will be another 50 years before this country elects another leaderless, over-his-head progressive dolt like Obama simply because he can read out loud very well.

 

Yet you are opposed to hiring back all of the public workers who have been let go.

 

Your second point is meaningless really. Of course the government is not the same as the private sector. It's not supposed to be the same either. The government is not running to make a profit.

 

Again, another person speaking for progressives. You know liberals/progressives say the same thing about conservatives right? So, no reason to go back and forth with that. Obama will be re-elected in November so your last paragraph is wrong.

[3rdnlng]

Yet you are opposed to hiring back all of the public workers who have been let go.

 

Your second point is meaningless really. Of course the government is not the same as the private sector. It's not supposed to be the same either. The government is not running to make a profit.

 

Again, another person speaking for progressives. You know liberals/progressives say the same thing about conservatives right? So, no reason to go back and forth with that. Obama will be re-elected in November so your last paragraph is wrong.

 

 

The Public Sector union worker and/or Public Sector non-union worker is going to have to have changes made to their fixed pension plans. They are unsustainable There are over 21000 California former state employees receiving a pension in excess of $100,000 a year. The top 100 State pensioners in Illinois have plans that are presently valued at 9 million dollars apiece. One of them (school administrator) will receive over $600,000 annually when he retires and 1.3 million dollars a year by the time they think he'll die. I know I've posted some of this stuff before but it is worth a second look.

 

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/facing_the_pension_mess_2x9CfnClQRu9usCxH5E1eO

 

 

http://www.fixpensionsfirst.com/

 

 

http://dailyreckoning.com/school-administrator-earns-pension-of-over-26-million/

 

 

 

"06/15/10 Stockholm, Sweden – California and Illinois state budgets have been a mess for some time now, as you would expect when expenses are wildly in excess of revenues.

 

Here’s the latest vivid example of how far off course they’ve gotten in Illinois… the estimated pension liability for just the 100 top school administrators is now about $888 million. That’s right… nearly one billion dollars… or about $9 million per administrator.

 

As would be expected in a pension spread, the numbers are not evenly distributed. One listed administrator in particular is expected to require a pension of over $26 million during his 29 years of retirement. His student must have learned their curriculum especially well. Thanks to his serving many noble years as a public “servant” it only makes sense to reward that effort, and sacrifice, with about $1 million per year of retirement."

Edited June 24, 2012 by 3rdnlng

[meazza]

Yet you are opposed to hiring back all of the public workers who have been let go.

 

Your second point is meaningless really. Of course the government is not the same as the private sector. It's not supposed to be the same either. The government is not running to make a profit.

 

Again, another person speaking for progressives. You know liberals/progressives say the same thing about conservatives right? So, no reason to go back and forth with that. [b Obama will be re-elected in November so your last paragraph is wrong.[/b]

 

Ok Scoobie.

[fjl2nd]

The Public Sector union worker and/or Public Sector non-union worker is going to have to have changes made to their fixed pension plans. They are unsustainable There are over 21000 California former state employees receiving a pension in excess of $100,000 a year. The top 100 State pensioners in Illinois have plans that are presently valued at 9 million dollars apiece. One of them (school administrator) will receive over $600,000 annually when he retires and 1.3 million dollars a year by the time they think he'll die. I know I've posted some of this stuff before but it is worth a second look.

 

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/facing_the_pension_mess_2x9CfnClQRu9usCxH5E1eO

 

 

http://www.fixpensionsfirst.com/

 

 

http://dailyreckoning.com/school-administrator-earns-pension-of-over-26-million/

 

 

 

06/15/10 Stockholm, Sweden – California and Illinois state budgets have been a mess for some time now, as you would expect when expenses are wildly in excess of revenues.

 

Here’s the latest vivid example of how far off course they’ve gotten in Illinois… the estimated pension liability for just the 100 top school administrators is now about $888 million. That’s right… nearly one billion dollars… or about $9 million per administrator.

 

Here are the numbers crunched by Bill Zettler, via The Daily Bail (click to visit a bigger version):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As would be expected in a pension spread, the numbers are not evenly distributed. One listed administrator in particular is expected to require a pension of over $26 million during his 29 years of retirement. His student must have learned their curriculum especially well. Thanks to his serving many noble years as a public “servant” it only makes sense to reward that effort, and sacrifice, with about $1 million per year of retirement.

 

Here is something that we can probably agree on for the most part. There needs to be a complete re-working of pension and retirement plans for public workers. Because as you said, they are pretty much unsustainable. If that is done, then governments can start hiring more teachers, police, etc. right now.

 

The sooner that the public unions realize that some of their demands are a little steep, the sooner government finances can be controlled a little more.

[3rdnlng]

Here is something that we can probably agree on for the most part. There needs to be a complete re-working of pension and retirement plans for public workers. Because as you said, they are pretty much unsustainable. If that is done, then governments can start hiring more teachers, police, etc. right now.

 

The sooner that the public unions realize that some of their demands are a little steep, the sooner government finances can be controlled a little more.

 

So, you are glad Walker won in Wisconsin?

[ExiledInIllinois]

So, you are glad Walker won in Wisconsin?

 

To a certain extent yes... BUT INCLUDE ALL union members... Don't divide.

[3rdnlng]

Tomato Can---good move to delete that. Youve got to make sure to start typing after the word "quote" or if you are going to post new information inside the other guy's quote differentiate it with "bold" or italics.

[tomato can]

Read what I wrote. NET ECONOMIC GROWTH. Chicago didn't create net economic growth because the money that is going to Ford is taken from money that could go to other uses. Chicago did not create new wealth, it just shifted it from one vendor to the other. Good news for Ford, but possibly bad news for the construction company that's been waiting to fix a bridge, road, etc. That's why the Keynesian multiplier is crap. You don't create net economic activity by robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

 

 

Yes, let's use the murder spurt by Chicagoland gangs to talk about the US crime rate trends.

 

My pet statistics are better than your pet statistics

 

Link 1

 

 

 

Yes, a lot less fires compared to 60-100 years ago, because that's when the big cities located their firehouses. In any other industry somebody would recognize the obvious of too much supply chasing lower demand.

 

 

 

Yes, let's get the violin for the holy trinity. Stop with the strawmen arguments. Nobody wants the holy trinity eliminated. But these fields should also be open to criticism and the hard knocks school of cost control. Everybody knows that employment in these fields should not be as variable as in other sectors of the economy, like retail for example. But there's no reason that the holy trinity should expect to have the same overtime rules, generous benefits & other perks the unions got during good times when the economy is still crapping out.

 

 

 

 

November 2011 was the start of the Major Chicago Infrastructure Project & South Side Rail Crossing Project that created more than 1,200 jobs and will provide a major boost to the regional economy. The project located at 130th Torrence Avenue and the Northfolk Southern Railroad just outside of the Ford Motor Plant is a $150 Million dollar project. The project involves lowering 130th Street and Torrence Avenue to fit under two new bridges carrying the Norfolk Southern Railroad tracks. The two streets and the tracks currently intersect, resulting in more than 200 hours in delay for the 32,000 vehicles that drive through the crossing daily. Trucks leaving the Ford Motor Company assembly plant nearby can wait as long as 20 minutes because of passing trains. Other components of the project include lowering Brainard Avenue to connect directly to 130th Street and Torrence Avenue, realigning the South Shore commuter line over Torrence Avenue and the Norfolk Southern tracks and adding pedestrian bridges and paths. Construction will be complete in 2015. The State of Illinois & The Federal Government are providing 80% of the money for the project. The remaining 20% is coming from Northfolk Southern Railroad, Northern Commuter Transportation District, City of Chicago, & Ford Motor Company. While this project is a pain for me trying to get to the interstate highway every day I ride by there every day and see all the construction workers, Iron Workers, & Crane Operators, ect, out there on the job site WORKING every day! Other Chicago transportation projects currently under construction include: the $300 million Wacker Drive reconstruction, the $33 million Congress Parkway bridge rehabilitation and more than $680 million in capital funding for the Chicago Transit Authority. This is Public & Private investment on these major projects. The businesses in downtown Chicago pay a pretty nice sum in real estate taxes and they are demanding these major projects to be started and that their tax dollars are put into these projects to get people back to work and the economy growing again! I dont want to hear that crap about bad news for the company waiting to fix a bridge or a road. These hard working men & women are out there daily working and doing a dam fine job and bringing home the bacon baby!

 

 

 

Crime may very well be down in some area's but its up in other area's. Chicago in 2005 had 13,900 Police Officers. Policeman that retired, were injured on the job, or left the Police Force were not replaced because of people like you screaming we need to cut the Police Force so the Chicago Police Department has just over 11,000 Police Officers today. Guess what crime is up in Chicago. Professionals leaving downtown Chicago are having to deal with flash mobs of teenagers & young adults attacking them for their cell phones, lap tops, IPADS, & wallets while trying to commute home from work on the train! My poor neighbor across the street came home from work to find some criminal took apart his central air conditioning unit for the copper and scrap metal. The Neighbor around the block had his garage broken into and his lawn mower, air compressor, & snow blower all stolen. Crime might be down in Big Mule, Mississippi but its not here and a lot of other area's!

 

 

 

Did some research on Fireman. The National Fire Protection Association tracks and keeps data on fireman & fire related issues. There are 1,103,300 fire fighters in the United States. 335,150 (30%) are career fire fighters. 768,150 (70%) are volunteer fire fighters. You have no arguement left. 30% are getting a good salary, benefits, & pension. The rest are volunteers. What about that mass supply chasing lower demaned??? You sound like a guy that is more interested in more mass unemployment than a guy calling for economic growth.

 

 

 

 

 

Its on the parents not the teachers to send these kids to school ready to learn. Quit blaming the teachers. Talk about supply and demnad. Is there less supply of children these days???

 

Tomato Can---good move to delete that. Youve got to make sure to start typing after the word "quote" or if you are going to post new information inside the other guy's quote differentiate it with "bold" or italics.

 

 

Yeah thanks

 

So, you are glad Walker won in Wisconsin?

 

 

Actually I had no problem with Walker and what he was trying to achieve. Public sector workers are needed. All Walker was trying to do was get them to realize unsustainable pension packages and free health benefits can't continue. Walker wasn't trying to fire those workers.

 

To a certain extent yes... BUT INCLUDE ALL union members... Don't divide.

 

 

Exactly Include all union workers!

[fjl2nd]

So, you are glad Walker won in Wisconsin?

 

I didn't care about it too much. I don't live there.

 

I think what he did probably helped the state long-term. The language and demeanor he approached it with was a little strong but that's not that important now.

[tomato can]

 

2) When governments run out of money, they don't do what a business does and downsize or cut back; they increase their fee. You simply can not do that in the private sector and survive. There is no world where -- if I make a product or provide a service no one wants -- I can fix my cash flow problem by raising the price on the product or service that no one wants. The ability to randomly take more money with no accountability increases the lack of efficiency, and ANY business person can tell you the FIRST step to increasing margins is to reduce inefficiencies. The government knows nothing of this, and wastes our money regularly because of its inefficiency.

 

 

 

I get what you are saying but that is not always the case with the private sector. Baseball teams, basketball teams, hockey teams are constantly raising ticket prices. Went to the Cubs -vs- RedSox game last Sunday. $94 dollars for the ticket. Went with 2 friends. Purchased the first round of beers, 3 beers were $23.25. One hot dog was $5. Been to see a movie lately? $10 per person to get in. Took my girlfriend so it was $20 to get in. 2 soda pops and a bucket of popcorn was $16 bucks. Been to the auto mechanic lately to have your car fixed? Parts and labor prices are extremely high. Those are all private sector companies and they are raising prices like mad! Government raises fees to cover costs, private sector does it not just to cover cost but to make a handsome profit.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I went through a RIF (Reduction in Force) back in the early 1990's with the USACE Buffalo District.

[OCinBuffalo]

It is true that we often need government to do jobs that are inefficient by nature. Like it or not, somebody has to do AIDS counseling, it's not a growth business(we hope), and there's no way to more efficiently do it. The problems arise when we confuse the cause, having enough private sector money, with the effect, being able to afford AIDS counseling.

 

However, what does that have to do with things like Solyndra? That is completely out of the government's scope, at any level.

 

Government works best when it has a strictly defined scope, and stays in it.

The trouble for statists is: The government is by definition inefficient, thus it should always be the LAST resort, not the first.

 

And again, hiring/firing large swaths of public employees at the Federal level, or "trickle down government" is not a solution to anything. These decisions will all eventually be decentralized. It's just a matter of time.

[ExiledInIllinois]

It is true that we often need government to do jobs that are inefficient by nature. Like it or not, somebody has to do AIDS counseling, it's not a growth business(we hope), and there's no way to more efficiently do it. The problems arise when we confuse the cause, having enough private sector money, with the effect, being able to afford AIDS counseling.

 

However, what does that have to do with things like Solyndra? That is completely out of the government's scope, at any level.

 

Government works best when it has a strictly defined scope, and stays in it.

The trouble for statists is: The government is by definition inefficient, thus it should always be the LAST resort, not the first.

 

And again, hiring/firing large swaths of public employees at the Federal level, or "trickle down government" is not a solution to anything. These decisions will all eventually be decentralized. It's just a matter of time.

 

Very valid points.

 

"Inherently gov't" I think is the phrase.

[DC Tom]

It is true that we often need government to do jobs that are inefficient by nature. Like it or not, somebody has to do AIDS counseling,

 

Private charities handled it just fine, once upon a time.

 

Probably better and more efficiently than government, in fact.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Private charities handled it just fine, once upon a time.

 

Probably better and more efficiently than government, in fact.

 

Like Father Baker's in Lackawanna... Lot of success there true... BUT you wonder how many fell trhough the cracks of the system? Why did society get away from orphanages? Now consider what the Catholic church is dealing with today? Efficient? At what cost?

[IDBillzFan]

I get what you are saying but that is not always the case with the private sector. Baseball teams, basketball teams, hockey teams are constantly raising ticket prices. Went to the Cubs -vs- RedSox game last Sunday. $94 dollars for the ticket. Went with 2 friends. Purchased the first round of beers, 3 beers were $23.25. One hot dog was $5. Been to see a movie lately? $10 per person to get in. Took my girlfriend so it was $20 to get in. 2 soda pops and a bucket of popcorn was $16 bucks. Been to the auto mechanic lately to have your car fixed? Parts and labor prices are extremely high. Those are all private sector companies and they are raising prices like mad! Government raises fees to cover costs, private sector does it not just to cover cost but to make a handsome profit.

Here's the difference: you went.

 

My point was about a product or service that no one wants. You and other people not only wanted the first products (Cubs vs Redsox, movie with girlfriend), but then purchased other products you wanted (beer, hot, soda, popcorn). If NO ONE wanted those products, raising the prices for those products would not make more people want them. Not to mention, if you find the prices too high for baseball and movies and don't want to pay those prices, you may have options. We have a cheap theater near us that plays movies on the tail end of their run for $2. When I was in NC, we'd go see the Durham Bulls play for pennies. In other word, if you don't like the "handsome profit" that baseball teams and movie theaters make, you have a choice to not attend.

 

When the federal government starts overcharging you for services you don't want or need, where do you go? Nowhere. They've got you by the shortncurlies. As a result, the government just gets more and more bloated by adding more and more fees to hire more and more people because they don't NEED handsome profits. They just need more money. Your money. And if you don't give it to them, they will take everything you own and put you away.