fjl2nd Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Please take your economics textbook, strap it to a 3' pole and then proceed to smack your face with it for 1 hour. That will give you a better understanding of how the world works. THE PUBLIC SECTOR DOES NOT GROW THE ECONOMY. Lather, rinse repeat. Your inane point ignores the reason why the rebound is not like any other post-recession recovery. And who is going to pay for that public sector employment when private sector isn't rebounding? The problem we have is that the private sector is sidelined because nobody is stupid enough to take risks under this administration. Yes, you can increase public sector hiring and give everyone a handout to artificially prop up demand, and set yourself up for a nasty reckoning when your economics degree gets you a job sweeping floors in the local Starbucks because private investment is crowded out. Or you can recognize that true growth won't return until the guys who are in charge of hiring feel good enough about the future to start adding to private sector employment. Drop the textbooks...blah blah. When there is 1.4 million less jobs than there normally would be, that is a problem. That is a huge loss of demand for the private sector which could lead to more jobs....in the private sector! Private investment is no where close to being crowded out. These extra jobs would do nothing but benefit the struggling economy. Combine these hirings with some incentives and deregulation for some small businesses and we could see a real recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 If public sector growth grew like it normally would following a recession, we would have an extra 1.4 million jobs in the country and unemployment would be below 7%. That's not taking into account the economic impact each job has the public sector. And the top 3 positions in the public sector: 1. Teachers 2. Police 3. Firefighters Ahhh, yes. The last-gasp liberal-guilt how-dare-you-not-support-these-people public employee trifecta. Well, at least it takes a stupid argument and makes it sound better than librarians, janitors and streetsweepers. Because everyone knows the only public employees who lose their job in a recession are teachers, police and firefighters. Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 You are an idiot. Get out of your Manhatten mailroom and look out a window and see who is dredging New York Harbor. Of course I'm the idiot, because when I read the article, I presume that the reason Port Authority wants the funding is to improve its competitiveness against Baltimore's, Boston's & Miami's ports. So, where's the growth going to come from if the result of that spending will shift traffic from one port to another? Drop the textbooks...blah blah. When there is 1.4 million less jobs than there normally would be, that is a problem. That is a huge loss of demand for the private sector which could lead to more jobs....in the private sector! Private investment is no where close to being crowded out. These extra jobs would do nothing but benefit the struggling economy. Combine these hirings with some incentives and deregulation for some small businesses and we could see a real recovery. Have another talk with your department head. Public sector spending puts a floor on GDP, albeit by borrowing from the future growth of the private sector. So yes, it dampens recessionary shock, but you better have real GDP growth to pay for it down the road. The public sector does not generate economic growth of its own, unless the government starts printing more money to pay the public sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Of course I'm the idiot, because when I read the article, I presume that the reason Port Authority wants the funding is to improve its competitiveness against Baltimore's, Boston's & Miami's ports. So, where's the growth going to come from if the result of that spending will shift traffic from one port to another? I figured you would play this idiotic angle. Fits right into your blind, illogical ideology. So there is no growth? Growth is solely dependant on the private sector. That is what you said, right? So, growth is stagnant and the other east coast ports are all much bigger and deeper than New York (3rd busiest port outside of NOLA, and I presume Long Beach)? NYC is getting squeezed for the SAME business? ZERO, zilch growth... Halifax is stealing things away too... All the same marbles, just being rearranged differently? What conservative wet dream do you live in? And you are supposedly this high falutent "economics guy?" No growth is created? That the same econmomic game is just spread around in a highly competitive arena between existing cities with in place natural deep water ports? Huh? Who dug the harbors and rivers to created the intial growth? Who was backing the private sector from the get go? Who was there to pick up the pieces when projects would fail? You obviously haven't read too much history. Believe me, a lot of privately started projects have failed after the start and would have never been completed without the public coming to its rescue. Yeah pivate sector... All growth is created growth totally by the private sector, with no help from the public! Who improved the channels and navi lanes? Peter Minuit paddling around in a canoe with his private cache of beads and trinkets? What about the military complex? They created zero growth too? Your blind ideology knows no bounds... Even I don't go there with the ideology. Edited June 21, 2012 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I figured you would play this idiotic angle. Fits right into your blind, illogical ideology. So there is no growth? Growth is solely dependant on the private sector. That is what you said, right? So, growth is stagnant and the other east coast ports are all much bigger and deeper than New York (3rd busiest port outside of NOLA, and I presume Long Beach)? NYC is getting squeezed for the SAME business? ZERO, zilch growth... Halifax is stealing things away too... All the same marbles, just being rearranged differently? What conservative wet dream do you live in? And you are supposedly this high falutent "economics guy?" No growth is created? That the same econmomic game is just spread around in a highly competitive arena between existing cities with in place natural deep water ports? Huh? Who dug the harbors and rivers to created the intial growth? Who was backing the private sector from the get go? Who was there to pick up the pieces when projects would fail? You obviously haven't read too much history. Believe me, a lot of privately started projects have failed after the start and would have never been completed without the public coming to its rescue. Yeah pivate sector... All growth is created growth totally by the private sector, with no help from the public! Who improved the channels and navi lanes? Peter Minuit paddling around in a canoe with his private cache of beads and trinkets? What about the military complex? They created zero growth too? Your blind ideology knows no bounds... Even I don't go there with the ideology. Who pays for the infrastructure, moron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Who pays for the infrastructure, moron? Public will. That public will is not soley created by private interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Public will. That public will is not soley created by private interests. And where does the "public" get its money from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 And where does the "public" get its money from? Chicken and egg argument. Where does the private sector get their "arena" to make their money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Chicken and egg argument. Where does the private sector get their "arena" to make their money? It is not a chicken & egg argument. Public sector is funded by the private sector. The public sector builds the arena because it wants to incentivize the private sector to do business in the area. Meanwhile, the private sector is perfectly capable to build its own arena or whatever infrastructure it needs to make its money. Can't say the same about the public sector. Get a clue on how the economy works, how the money flows and then participate in a discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Chicken and egg argument. Where does the private sector get their "arena" to make their money? Look at it this way: If you did away with the private sector, what would happen to the public sector? After you've wrapped your head around that, ask yourself, if you did away with the public sector, what would happen to the private sector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Look at it this way: If you did away with the private sector, what would happen to the public sector? After you've wrapped your head around that, ask yourself, if you did away with the public sector, what would happen to the private sector? The private sector would cannibalize itself. Look at it this way... What would happen to society if we got rid of the public sector? We know that answer. A society that doesn't take public ownership, act as good stewards for the people. We have been down that road as a nation... It was called the cause of The Great Depression and the era before it. There are no mulligan's, both SOCIETY and the private sector NEED and WANT the public sector... Only the loons would want to go back to the days of company towns, stores and roads... We know how well that all worked out. Your twisted philosophy created progressivism. Blame your own !@#$ed up human traits. Just don't bite the hand that feeds you... You conservatives have illusions of grandeur that you can make it work totally without a public sector... That has been proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 The private sector would cannibalize itself. Look at it this way... What would happen to society if we got rid of the public sector? We know that answer. A society that doesn't take public ownership, act as good stewards for the people. We have been down that road as a nation... It was called the cause of The Great Depression and the era before it. There are no mulligan's, both SOCIETY and the private sector NEED and WANT the public sector... Only the loons would want to go back to the days of company towns, stores and roads... We know how well that all worked out. Your twisted philosophy created progressivism. Blame your own !@#$ed up human traits. Just don't bite the hand that feeds you... You conservatives have illusions of grandeur that you can make it work totally without a public sector... That has been proven wrong. Riddler, stay on topic. That's not the point of this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Riddler, stay on topic. That's not the point of this conversation. Yes it is Glen. I was answering what Mark brought up. Care to comment on it? You won't, because you can't. So, you resort to the same Riddler bs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 The private sector would cannibalize itself. Look at it this way... What would happen to society if we got rid of the public sector? We know that answer. A society that doesn't take public ownership, act as good stewards for the people. We have been down that road as a nation... It was called the cause of The Great Depression and the era before it. There are no mulligan's, both SOCIETY and the private sector NEED and WANT the public sector... Only the loons would want to go back to the days of company towns, stores and roads... We know how well that all worked out. Your twisted philosophy created progressivism. Blame your own !@#$ed up human traits. Just don't bite the hand that feeds you... You conservatives have illusions of grandeur that you can make it work totally without a public sector... That has been proven wrong. No, the private sector would form a government, but a government that was limited. We'd get rid of things like the Dept. of Education, Energy Dept and toll booth operators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Yes it is Glen. I was answering what Mark brought up. Care to comment on it? You won't, because you can't. So, you resort to the same Riddler bs. His point was that the private sector can sustain itself. Whether you like how it looks is irrelevant. The public sector otoh cannot be self sustained without the private economy. Which brings us back to the inane point that the drop in public sector employment is why the economy and the job markets are still in the crapper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 No, the private sector would form a government, but a government that was limited. We'd get rid of things like the Dept. of Education, Energy Dept and toll booth operators. Good thing you didn't say DoD... That is who I work for. We wouldn't want DoD supplies not getting through. Wow... Pretty amazing... A toll booth operator looking out for your azz and the interest of the nation! His point was that the private sector can sustain itself. Whether you like how it looks is irrelevant. The public sector otoh cannot be self sustained without the private economy. No, it can't sustain itself. Hence my comment that it would "cannibalize" itself like it did in the past. I agree, both need each other. The public sector needs to protect the people from the private sector. The point that got my dander up is that you said the public sector can't generate growth. That is a pretty definite statement from you. Yes it can generate private sector growth. The interstate highway system comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 No, it can't sustain itself. Hence my comment that it would "cannibalize" itself like it did in the past. I agree, both need each other. The public sector needs to protect the people from the private sector. The point that got my dander up is that you said the public sector can't generate growth. That is a pretty definite statement from you. Yes it can generate private sector growth. The interstate highway system comes to mind. Newsflash. The private sector cannibalizes itself every day because that's the nature of capitalism. How does the public sector reinvent itself? It doesn't. Keep falling back on infrastructure as it's the only thing you know. Yet the only reason infrastructure is a public works project is the government monopoly on it. There's nothing special about it that a group of private companies couldn't replicate. Plus to drive higher economic returns the private sector would devote more money to infrastructure where it's needed as opposed to siphoning cash to a bunch of bridges and roads to nowhere in congressional pet districts. Never mind the public sector blocking economic growth engines like new pipelines and electric grid improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Never mind the public sector blocking economic growth engines like new pipelines and electric grid improvements. In the name of protecting the enviro! Everybody suffers when common lands are eventually depleted... Well, that is their argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 You really think Congress is being replaced by laptops anytime soon? They killed the Paige Program.... Most Congress don't ever read the Bills, they don't need computers.... Saving all over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjl2nd Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Ahhh, yes. The last-gasp liberal-guilt how-dare-you-not-support-these-people public employee trifecta. Well, at least it takes a stupid argument and makes it sound better than librarians, janitors and streetsweepers. Because everyone knows the only public employees who lose their job in a recession are teachers, police and firefighters. Jesus. Not a fan of reality are we? My post in no way a guilt trip. It was pure numbers. Real jobs were cut here. This is not about public vs. private sector. Well, actually for some of you it is. You can't stand people working in the public sector. This is about job growth across the board. Even if the public growth is temporary, it can have a benefit on the private sector to get to where we need to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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