Public Sector Unions

[3rdnlng]

He's eying a White House run, so he's actually been fairly moderate and not completely screwing upstate. Certainly doing a lot better than that blind jackass Patterson.

 

This state still needs a major enema to flush the downstate turds out of Albany.

 

 

So, what do you think, can a DINO as governor with a conservative legislature get more accomplished for conservatism than a

a conservative governor with a conservative legislature? Clinton didn't have a lot of leftist opposition to welfare reform and Obama isn't hearing much about his drone attacks. I'm not hearing too much from NYS. Is it possible that Cuomo is pulling off a conservative coup?

[ExiledInIllinois]

It's not necessarily that the jobs are "non-hazardous" but as others have hinted at when they strike they strike against the tax payers. They are the tax payers. "Management" in this instance is the government...and workers are citizen voters. So it's not really not really management v. workers bargaining for wages ... b/c the workers are all ready represented by the political process as voters. They can vote as they wish, and they can also lobby their fellow voters to persuade them that it's important to give x, y, and z conditions to public sector workers b/c they need to attract certain talent or whatever....Obviously that political representation is there and thus the public union is sort of "having it twice."

 

Now, at the same time it probably isn't fair (IMO) to ONLY have that "first level" political influence as a citizen ... b/c while it's not the traditional management v. worker relationship it still IS a management v. worker relationship (lol) ... so long story short I think they should have some ability to "collectively bargain" but it should be significantly downscaled and ultimately it shouldn't resemble what we think of as a union at all there really should just be some sort of internal process of sorts that is protected against political whims (perhaps built into the state level constitutions?) that allows for some reasonable give and take/dialogue over various benefits and interests that are within the feasibility of whatever the current budget limitations are as set forth by the state congress.

 

Long story short a traditional union would be having it twice. No protection is less than having it "one full time." Some lower-level bargaining power protected from political whims + the fact that they are voters will amount to a fair situation IMO.

 

I am not allowed to strike... Not sure all jobs have to agree to that... Just imagine if we did strike... Whole towns could possibly flood and be underwater. When I was hired I signed a "No Strike Clause." If we do strike, you are fired... Anyway, with that no strike clause... You do expect something back... Like having a bargaining unit. Like I said, in my case we don't have to join the union BUT the union has exclusive bargaining rights... That is I am bound to the collective agreement, in the union or not.

 

Again, just illustrating what goes on at the federal level... Hoping to dispell the myth and sterotype.

[3rdnlng]

I am not allowed to strike... Not sure all jobs have to agree to that... Just imagine if we did strike... Whole towns could possibly flood and be underwater. When I was hired I signed a "No Strike Clause." If we do strike, you are fired... Anyway, with that no strike clause... You do expect something back... Like having a bargaining unit. Like I said, in my case we don't have to join the union BUT the union has exclusive bargaining rights... That is I am bound to the collective agreement, in the union or not.

 

Again, just illustrating what goes on at the federal level... Hoping to dispell the myth and sterotype.

 

 

So, your brethren pay the bill for bargaining on your behalf and you are ok with that? I suppose you don't tip either.

[Koko78]

So, what do you think, can a DINO as governor with a conservative legislature get more accomplished for conservatism than a

a conservative governor with a conservative legislature? Clinton didn't have a lot of leftist opposition to welfare reform and Obama isn't hearing much about his drone attacks. I'm not hearing too much from NYS. Is it possible that Cuomo is pulling off a conservative coup?

 

No, he's not pulling off a conservative coup (nor is the NYS legislature conservative). He's dressing up a lot of his actions as populist nonsense.

 

Nothing is really changing in NY, other than WNY is getting a slightly bigger chuck of change to waste on corruption. The budget continues to expand every year. We've still got some 1,500 unaccountable authorities pissing away money like it's going out of style, crushing taxes, anti-business regulations and a proudly corrupt, inefficient bureaucracy.

 

Cuomo's biggest actual accomplishment thus far is his ill-advised property tax cap. That's going to do nothing more than screw every village, town, city and county in the end. The state continues to shift the burdens on municipalities to pay for all these unfunded mandates, and has now hamstrung the local governments' abilities to raise funds.

 

As I said, he's not screwing upstate with his policies, but he's not really doing anything to fix the systemic problems that has plagued this state for centuries.

[ExiledInIllinois]

So, your brethren pay the bill for bargaining on your behalf and you are ok with that? I suppose you don't tip either.

I have to be bargained for. I was in the union before, but now have my issues with them... The only thing I can do is pull my purse strings... True, only like 300 bucks a year... But it sends the messgae. I wouldn't ask them if I had issues... I would fight on my own (Fed Merit Board or soemthing)... Which you can... The union may try and butt in though, it is their right.

 

I just don't agree where they were heading...

[uncle flap]

I must be missing something here.

 

Both private and public union's purpose is to advocate for common goals like better pay, working conditions, etc. right?

 

Why shouldn't policemen, firemen, and teacher be able to fight for themselves? Because they've been successful?

 

If it weren't for public unions, you'd have a hell of a time filling these essential positions.

 

So you guys would like to see these unions abolished? You better hope there's enough cops on duty when you call 911. I sure hope the firetruck has enough gas to get to your cousin's house when it's on fire. There's sure going to be a shortage of public AND private school teachers if the market rate for salary is peanuts. Good luck having your kid learn anything in a classroom with 50 other kids and no textbooks. Who would want a job as a teacher with those working conditions?

[ExiledInIllinois]

No, he's not pulling off a conservative coup (nor is the NYS legislature conservative). He's dressing up a lot of his actions as populist nonsense.

 

Nothing is really changing in NY, other than WNY is getting a slightly bigger chuck of change to waste on corruption. The budget continues to expand every year. We've still got some 1,500 unaccountable authorities pissing away money like it's going out of style, crushing taxes, anti-business regulations and a proudly corrupt, inefficient bureaucracy.

 

Cuomo's biggest actual accomplishment thus far is his ill-advised property tax cap. That's going to do nothing more than screw every village, town, city and county in the end. The state continues to shift the burdens on municipalities to pay for all these unfunded mandates, and has now hamstrung the local governments' abilities to raise funds.

 

As I said, he's not screwing upstate with his policies, but he's not really doing anything to fix the systemic problems that has plagued this state for centuries.

 

 

Really? LMAO... A conservative coup? Can't win with you guys! Give concessions, and that is not good enough. My God... My pay has been froze for 5 years... What more does your jealousy want?

 

I must be missing something here.

 

Both private and public union's purpose is to advocate for common goals like better pay, working conditions, etc. right?

 

Why shouldn't policemen, firemen, and teacher be able to fight for themselves? Because they've been successful?

 

If it weren't for public unions, you'd have a hell of a time filling these essential positions.

 

So you guys would like to see these unions abolished? You better hope there's enough cops on duty when you call 911. I sure hope the firetruck has enough gas to get to your cousin's house when it's on fire. There's sure going to be a shortage of public AND private school teachers if the market rate for salary is peanuts. Good luck having your kid learn anything in a classroom with 50 other kids and no textbooks. Who would want a job as a teacher with those working conditions?

Cops and fire are exempt... That is how they divide and conquer. Us "toll collectors" should flood some towns...

[3rdnlng]

No, he's not pulling off a conservative coup (nor is the NYS legislature conservative). He's dressing up a lot of his actions as populist nonsense.

 

Nothing is really changing in NY, other than WNY is getting a slightly bigger chuck of change to waste on corruption. The budget continues to expand every year. We've still got some 1,500 unaccountable authorities pissing away money like it's going out of style, crushing taxes, anti-business regulations and a proudly corrupt, inefficient bureaucracy.

 

Cuomo's biggest actual accomplishment thus far is his ill-advised property tax cap. That's going to do nothing more than screw every village, town, city and county in the end. The state continues to shift the burdens on municipalities to pay for all these unfunded mandates, and has now hamstrung the local governments' abilities to raise funds.

 

As I said, he's not screwing upstate with his policies, but he's not really doing anything to fix the systemic problems that has plagued this state for centuries.

 

 

Not sure I understand the whole bit in NY. I grew up in WNY, moved away and actually moved back for about three years. The real estate tax burden was not something I could put up with. $15,000 a year for a 1200 s/f house just because it was on the lake was a little ridiculous. Anyway, I hope NY finds its way.

[Koko78]

So you guys would like to see these unions abolished? You better hope there's enough cops on duty when you call 911. I sure hope the firetruck has enough gas to get to your cousin's house when it's on fire. There's sure going to be a shortage of public AND private school teachers if the market rate for salary is peanuts. Good luck having your kid learn anything in a classroom with 50 other kids and no textbooks. Who would want a job as a teacher with those working conditions?

 

Thankfully most us live in the real world, where public unions aren't exactly standing between us and the complete chaos. But hey, this level of stupidity is quite entertaining, so thanks for that.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Not sure I understand the whole bit in NY. I grew up in WNY, moved away and actually moved back for about three years. The real estate tax burden was not something I could put up with. $15,000 a year for a 1200 s/f house just because it was on the lake was a little ridiculous. Anyway, I hope NY finds its way.

 

 

You sure about that 15k? Illinois is high too... My 1300 s/f house is taxed at $5,500.00... NOT in COOK, but republican collar county Will. My taxes in democratic Cook county just under a mile away would be half...

[uncle flap]

Thankfully most us live in the real world, where public unions aren't exactly standing between us and the complete chaos. But hey, this level of stupidity is quite entertaining, so thanks for that.

 

 

I'm stupid? Aren't you the guy who works a week in a factory for what a teacher makes in a day? I guess you made a real smart career choice.

 

Tell me what's to stop more and more funding cuts to essential services? Voters? Give me a break. No one wants to pay for essential services until they need them. Aren't most people going to vote for the guy who promises the lowest taxes? It's a slippery slope. Ultimately there will be chaos but hey, at least your taxes are low.

 

 

Now teachers make on average (in NY at least) $56,000 per year to work 6 hours per day, 180 days of the year. I know of a teacher for a large school district who, after 25 years, made more in one day than I made working a 40 hour week at a factory. The guy was also a scumball goldbrick, but that's a different story.

Edited June 12, 2012 by uncle flap

[3rdnlng]

You sure about that 15k? Illinois is high too... My 1300 s/f house is taxed at $5,500.00... NOT in COOK, but republican collar county Will. My taxes in democratic Cook county just under a mile away would be half...

 

 

Yes, I'm sure. I'm also sure of other NYS taxes that are about 4-5 times what other states charge. NYS is !@#$ed, and it's because they've made it that way.

[uncle flap]

Really? LMAO... A conservative coup? Can't win with you guys! Give concessions, and that is not good enough. My God... My pay has been froze for 5 years... What more does your jealousy want?

 

 

Cops and fire are exempt... That is how they divide and conquer. Us "toll collectors" should flood some towns...

 

:lol:

[dayman]

$56K on AVERAGE in NY? OMFG...how are there any teachers left in my state...

[Bigfatbillsfan]

But most people "have it" zero times because you can't vote against your private employer. As it is, the gov't is always going to be less concerned with the bottom line than a private enterprise so naturally they are already going to give gov't employees a better deal so they can attract the quality of people they want in the timeframe they want to get them. Plus, since they aren't held to strict fiscal demands a gov't employee is much less likely to get fired for poor performance than is a private sector employee. Therefore, they are already getting an easier deal even with no union at all in place.

 

I used to work for DES and I can say that I was, for the most part, well compensated and can't see any reason why we would need a public sector union. I've done better now working in the private sector but, for the most part, that's not usually the case. That being said, I can take your statement further and say public sector employees are not only better paid than their private sector counterparts but when they unionize they can force the private sector (that is not as well compensated) to have to pony up more tax money when they want a pay raise.

 

I see no reason why anyone working for the government would need to be part of a union. It would be one thing if they were all working in highly dangerous environments for little pay and no benefits but that just plain isn't the case.

[Koko78]

I'm stupid? Aren't you the guy who works a week in a factory for what a teacher makes in a day? I guess you made a real smart career choice.

 

Tell me what's to stop more and more funding cuts to essential services? Voters? Give me a break. No one wants to pay for essential services until they need them. Aren't most people going to vote for the guy who promises the lowest taxes? It's a slippery slope. Ultimately there will be chaos but hey, at least your taxes are low.

 

You're right, I did make a real smart career choice when I quit working there over 12 years ago. Thanks for asking!

 

Do you really think that unions have any control over funding to services? That's even sillier than your doom and gloom stupidity.

 

I'm sure that you feel a 54% graduation rate resulting from these poor, overworked underappreciated slave-driven union teachers is a tremendous accomplishment deserving of raises all around too, eh?

 

Success for the stupid... yay?

 

But hey, at least the union took a stand for the kids and resoundingly defeated every plan that the Buffalo school district and New York State tried to implement in order to better the education of the kids. I mean hell, who needs to jettison dead weight when the poor underworked teachers are underperforming 'for the kids'? Certainly longevity and experience of lazy goldbricks is far more valuable to a child's education than people who are actually motivated to do their jobs and not just collect a paycheck.

 

Oh right, teachers will somehow magically receive minimum wage if the corrupt unions go away. I mean that's how it turned out in Wisconsin, after all. Clearly your doom and gloom scenario isn't concocted by some jackass who is more worried about keeping his job than actually doing his job.

[/dev/null]

I see no reason why anyone working for the government would need to be part of a union. It would be one thing if they were all working in highly dangerous environments for little pay and no benefits but that just plain isn't the case.

What do you mean only in highly dangerous environments? There are still government workers without ergonomic keyboards and office chairs without proper lumbar support!

 

A few years back I was on a government project. The government likes to renovate their office spaces and buy new furniture every couple of years. They don't really need it but if they don't spend the money it gets taken out of next years budget, but that's beside the point. Anyways, the government renovates one of their buildings. Part of the renovation included rewiring the network cables throughout the building. Everything is preplanned and agreed to before any work starts. Somewhere along the line somebody complains to the Union about where their new office is located. Renovation is stopped until that matter is settled. Work continues until that guy moves into his new office. He is not pleased with the location of his data, phone, and cable TV hookups (yeah cable TV) which had been agreed to before work had ever started. Call up the Union rep. It's not like he's the one paying to have 3 separate contractors re-run those lines.

[dayman]

The single biggest gripe I can possibly have with any and all union policies I've seen in any context is the idea that a principal can observe a class only once or twice a year and only with notice. Can't get my head around that one. I obviously don't know the exact rule but it's something like that where I live. No dropping in to see what's going on by the boss.

Edited June 12, 2012 by TheNewBills

[Taro T]

No, he's not pulling off a conservative coup (nor is the NYS legislature conservative). He's dressing up a lot of his actions as populist nonsense.

 

Nothing is really changing in NY, other than WNY is getting a slightly bigger chuck of change to waste on corruption. The budget continues to expand every year. We've still got some 1,500 unaccountable authorities pissing away money like it's going out of style, crushing taxes, anti-business regulations and a proudly corrupt, inefficient bureaucracy.

 

Cuomo's biggest actual accomplishment thus far is his ill-advised property tax cap. That's going to do nothing more than screw every village, town, city and county in the end. The state continues to shift the burdens on municipalities to pay for all these unfunded mandates, and has now hamstrung the local governments' abilities to raise funds.

 

As I said, he's not screwing upstate with his policies, but he's not really doing anything to fix the systemic problems that has plagued this state for centuries.

But, unfortunately, that does make him one of the best Governors NY has had in my lifetime. The bar has been set rather low.

[ExiledInIllinois]

$56K on AVERAGE in NY? OMFG...how are there any teachers left in my state...

 

Think about it, at least my perspective... After all the payroll taxes, life insurance, health insurance, saving toward 401k... They will be lucky to take home about 25-30 grand... I know you say too bad... But benefits do count for something.

 

I feel real sorry for the ones that don't have that benefit cushion... They really are cruising to the bone... One disaster away from poverty. That isn't how it should be.

 

I used to work for DES and I can say that I was, for the most part, well compensated and can't see any reason why we would need a public sector union. I've done better now working in the private sector but, for the most part, that's not usually the case. That being said, I can take your statement further and say public sector employees are not only better paid than their private sector counterparts but when they unionize they can force the private sector (that is not as well compensated) to have to pony up more tax money when they want a pay raise.

 

I see no reason why anyone working for the government would need to be part of a union. It would be one thing if they were all working in highly dangerous environments for little pay and no benefits but that just plain isn't the case.

What about gov't sector wage grade employees (non GS types)? Workers like welders, electricians, law enforcement, fire fighters, crane and floating plant people, etc...

 

One of the guys I know on the work crew just lost his leg in an accident. You think management should be left standing alone to make sure that does not happen again?

 

Gov't workers are more than just pencil pushers, white collar type. Again, my wage as a federal employee is set by local private industry. That scale I am paid on is adjusted to local industry where I work (home HQ for the district).

Edited June 12, 2012 by ExiledInIllinois