Dan Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 1338799270[/url]' post='2479913']Okay, that sounds pretty consistent with what I was taught...definitely an interesting field of study I agree. Interesting and just as controversial as when it was all first proposed. Evolution is just one of those topics that intersects the core of our faith with our need to understand the world we live in. And, as such, will probably always be a lightning rod for discussion which is not really a bad thing at all.
ajzepp Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) I agree. Interesting and just as controversial as when it was all first proposed. Evolution is just one of those topics that intersects the core of our faith with our need to understand the world we live in. And, as such, will probably always be a lightning rod for discussion which is not really a bad thing at all. That's exactly why I'm critical of those who stay in their comfort zone culturally and intellectually. When people adhere to one strict set of ideas and are inflexible, particularly over time when there will almost certainly be new evidence or information that affects our world view, it really lays the groundwork for some bad things to happen, IMO. I just turned 40, and if I live another 40 I can only imagine just how much new information will be available to us through science. People can either fear that or embrace it, and I prefer the latter. With regard to faith, I read a quote from Socrates many years ago and have pretty much adopted his approach: To paraphrase, he said something like, "Death will either be like a dreamless sleep or you'll be in the presence of God"...I'm hoping for the latter, but I can deal with the former. Edited June 4, 2012 by ajzepp
Shamrock Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Brilliant thread, thanks all. By the way, my brother lives in Augusta, GA.
Captain Caveman Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 We should all stop worrying about what others think...all that really matters is what you think... Not when others vote to impose their beliefs and thoughts on the rest of us. To get 46% out of that poll, you have to ascribe to one hellacious redefinition of "creation". More accurate to say that 46% believe in God. But only about a third of them believe in Creation. More accurate to say: Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years.
RkFast Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) That's because I am sick and tired of having Christians trying to jam their belief down my throat every time I turn around. I have stopped counting the number of times I have been told "Freedom of Religion does not mean Freedom from Religion". Is that why Atheists have resorted to putting billboards outside NYC tunnels and on the side of buses attacking religion? It amazes me how atheists refuse to look in the mirror. As long as we mock America. That seems somehow important to our enlightened Friends. A LOT of this in that thread, isnt there? The idea that all Americans since the founding of the Country are "dumb and jingoistic" and the rest of the world is "open minded and diverse and smart" is just as ridiculious as "the world was created in six days." That's exactly why I'm critical of those who stay in their comfort zone culturally and intellectually. When people adhere to one strict set of ideas and are inflexible, particularly over time when there will almost certainly be new evidence or information that affects our world view, it really lays the groundwork for some bad things to happen, IMO. I just turned 40, and if I live another 40 I can only imagine just how much new information will be available to us through science. People can either fear that or embrace it, and I prefer the latter. With regard to faith, I read a quote from Socrates many years ago and have pretty much adopted his approach: To paraphrase, he said something like, "Death will either be like a dreamless sleep or you'll be in the presence of God"...I'm hoping for the latter, but I can deal with the former. The problem with THAT is that many many atheists are just as close-minded and feverent in their beliefs as those they claim to despise. You see it in this very thread. You see a level of bigotry and hatred that, according to them, only "those religous people" practice. I can see why people would not want to follow religion or question God or disconnect from being faithful all together. When the non-believers say things like the population of the religious "should be thinned out" is where they lose me. Seriously...thats a !@#$ed up statement and Id like one eof the so-called "enlighted" to explain how its any different than some of the horrible proclimations of intolerance we hear from the religious zealots. Edited June 4, 2012 by RkFast
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted June 4, 2012 Author Posted June 4, 2012 Is that why Atheists have resorted to putting billboards outside NYC tunnels and on the side of buses attacking religion? It amazes me how atheists refuse to look in the mirror. A LOT of this in that thread, isnt there? The idea that all Americans since the founding of the Country are "dumb and jingoistic" and the rest of the world is "open minded and diverse and smart" is just as ridiculious as "the world was created in six days." The problem with THAT is that many many atheists are just as close-minded and feverent in their beliefs as those they claim to despise. You see it in this very thread. You see a level of bigotry and hatred that, according to them, only "those religous people" practice. I can see why people would not want to follow religion or question God or disconnect from being faithful all together. When the non-believers say things like the population of the religious "should be thinned out" is where they lose me. Seriously...thats a !@#$ed up statement and Id like one eof the so-called "enlighted" to explain how its any different than some of the horrible proclimations of intolerance we hear from the religious zealots. Whoever you're quoting didn't post those things in this thread. If people are talking about thinning the herd, that is pretty !@#$ed, but the next time I hear of a violent crime in the name of No God will be the first. Anyway, atheists in general refuse to look in the mirror? Isn't that painting with the broad brush you want to condemn?
boyst Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Atheists are not attacking religion with the billboards. They are defending their choice. To think it is an attack on religion is laughable. Just because someone else doesn't agree with Christianity doesn't mean they are attacking it and I am tired of the record spinning "leave us christians alone!"
Fingon Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) I always like to pose this question to monotheists who laugh at pagans: what makes more sense, a bunch of supreme beings (gods) came together to create a universe, or some bored guy came up with it all on his own? It always gets me some odd looks. It's like they've never worked as a team before. Early Judaism was not monotheistic. In fact only after the Babylonian exile did they deny the existence of other gods such as El (used for the supreme creator in genesis, but rarely used after.. is a canaanite god), Baal, and Asherah. They only made the distinction because it was thought the Babylonian god defeated their god and they were conquered. It allowed the Jews to retain some pride after some bad defeats. Edited June 4, 2012 by Fingon
ajzepp Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 The problem with THAT is that many many atheists are just as close-minded and feverent in their beliefs as those they claim to despise. You see it in this very thread. You see a level of bigotry and hatred that, according to them, only "those religous people" practice. I can see why people would not want to follow religion or question God or disconnect from being faithful all together. When the non-believers say things like the population of the religious "should be thinned out" is where they lose me. Seriously...thats a !@#$ed up statement and Id like one eof the so-called "enlighted" to explain how its any different than some of the horrible proclimations of intolerance we hear from the religious zealots. Yeah, too many people are simply unable to identify with something and then prevent themselves from being offended when others don't identify with it, too. I think the problem is that generally speaking, people are insecure a-holes.
RkFast Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Whoever you're quoting didn't post those things in this thread. If people are talking about thinning the herd, that is pretty !@#$ed, but the next time I hear of a violent crime in the name of No God will be the first. Yes they did...Go back and look. Atheists are not attacking religion with the billboards. They are defending their choice. To think it is an attack on religion is laughable. Just because someone else doesn't agree with Christianity doesn't mean they are attacking it and I am tired of the record spinning "leave us christians alone!" Putting up a billboard during the holiday season that calls Christmas a "myth" isnt "attacking religion." ORLY???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????? “Every year, atheists get blamed for having a war on Christmas, even if we don’t do anything,” he said. “This year, we decided to give the religious right a taste of what war on Christmas looks like.”, - David Silverman, the president of American Atheists and the man behind the billboard, http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/for-the-holidays-an-atheism-billboard/ Sounds like an "attack" to ME. Yeah, too many people are simply unable to identify with something and then prevent themselves from being offended when others don't identify with it, too. I think the problem is that generally speaking, people are insecure a-holes. Bingo. Edited June 4, 2012 by RkFast
Ramius Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 To my knowledge, there isn't any widely accepted, factual evidence for evolution as a "ground up" theory. The evidence is limited to the evolution of particular species over time. Although I am personally accepting of evolution, the idea that this theory accounts for our physical and biological origins isn't any more factual at this point than creationism, IMO. I'm not sure where new species come from, but last I knew there wasn't any "factual" evidence that species evolve into OTHER species. The factual evidence of evolution is limited to intra-species variation and cannot yet account for, say, our evolution from apes or fish or whatever. Perhaps at some point that evidence will be found, and it's something I will probably find as fascinating as anyone else, but as of today (last I knew) it simply doesn't exist. It is, of course, THEORIZED how one species evolves into other species, but I don't recall there being anything definitive on this as of yet. As stated earlier, there is evidence for species evolving into other species. You really can't believe that natural selection exists without believing evolution does. natural selection drives evolution. You're mistaken on your views of the overall dogma of evolution. One species doesn't "turn into" another. That's an antiquated point of view. Evolution occurred by a single common ancestor organism experiencing varying pressures and undergoing changes. These pressures and changes thus led to multiple new species forming. It's not a linear process. there are many branch points along the way. Humans didn't evolve directly from chimps. There was a common primate ancestor that both humans and chimps evolved from. Along with fossil evidence for this, there's also DNA evidence. An extremely high similarity in DNA (as us and chimps have) shows that we came from the same source at some point in time. The more different the DNA, the farther back in time we split from a common ancestor.
NoSaint Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Is that why Atheists have resorted to putting billboards outside NYC tunnels and on the side of buses attacking religion? It amazes me how atheists refuse to look in the mirror. A LOT of this in that thread, isnt there? The idea that all Americans since the founding of the Country are "dumb and jingoistic" and the rest of the world is "open minded and diverse and smart" is just as ridiculious as "the world was created in six days." The problem with THAT is that many many atheists are just as close-minded and feverent in their beliefs as those they claim to despise. You see it in this very thread. You see a level of bigotry and hatred that, according to them, only "those religous people" practice. I can see why people would not want to follow religion or question God or disconnect from being faithful all together. When the non-believers say things like the population of the religious "should be thinned out" is where they lose me. Seriously...thats a !@#$ed up statement and Id like one eof the so-called "enlighted" to explain how its any different than some of the horrible proclimations of intolerance we hear from the religious zealots. i really havent seen that much of it in this thread. honestly. implying that if we teach creationism, we shouldnt just teach the christian version is far from what you are implying. no one called the rest of the world more enlightened, atleast that i remember - Just that with a wide world of views we shouldnt just look at our own. there are plenty of places in science where competing unproven views should be taught, not just religion. america, and americans, for all the fantastic things they do have going, i think is fair to say generally doesnt really enjoy getting outside its religious comfort zone. a lot of people do, but i would venture (and granted very much not from any study, but just a guess based on people ive encountered in my travels) that among those 46% that believe in creation, a high percentage do not have a deep desire to learn the many different theories of creation. thats something that transcends beyond just america though too im sure. you use a lot of "quotes" that seem to be pretty far off base the tone of the conversation that im reading. if it is coming across as attacking, i will, like sage earlier, apologize. it isnt intended that way. edit: some of the first page was a bit rough, the conversation seems to have come a long way though, and i think of the people in the conversation as opposed to the drive by **** starters its been pretty civil... i didnt even recall some of the comments early as they seem very removed from the core of the talks. Edited June 4, 2012 by NoSaint
TheMadCap Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 I did not read the article, but I believe I saw one similar to that a few days ago. If I recall, the 46% is actually DOWN from somewhere about 53% from a decade or so ago...
Ramius Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Back to the original topic, creationism should be left off the school science dockett, because it isn't science. It should be left to a philosophy or religion course.
boyst Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Yes they did...Go back and look. Putting up a billboard during the holiday season that calls Christmas a "myth" isnt "attacking religion." ORLY???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????? “Every year, atheists get blamed for having a war on Christmas, even if we don’t do anything,” he said. “This year, we decided to give the religious right a taste of what war on Christmas looks like.”, - David Silverman, the president of American Atheists and the man behind the billboard, http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/for-the-holidays-an-atheism-billboard/ Sounds like an "attack" to ME. Bingo. you can't say Happy Holidays without offending a christian, put up the star of david, or anything else that is not Christian or Santa without offending them. They blame athiests, the ACLU, etc for attacking them when all anyone wants is a right to have their own beliefs respected. Every year there are signs that say "we still say Merry Christmas" and even a lot of others simply saying it is about the birth of jesus and not the presents. How is that sign any different then the ones saying "repent," "all sinners go to hell," "jesus saves," and other such messages? Its their viewpoint and it is just as much a declaration of attack as saying Christmas is a myth. Back to the original topic, creationism should be left off the school science dockett, because it isn't science. It should be left to a philosophy or religion course. Should public school students be required to take the philosophy or religious studies courses so long as they teach all beliefs? I think so.
RkFast Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) you can't say Happy Holidays without offending a christian, put up the star of david, or anything else that is not Christian or Santa without offending them. They blame athiests, the ACLU, etc for attacking them when all anyone wants is a right to have their own beliefs respected. Every year there are signs that say "we still say Merry Christmas" and even a lot of others simply saying it is about the birth of jesus and not the presents. How is that sign any different then the ones saying "repent," "all sinners go to hell," "jesus saves," and other such messages? Its their viewpoint and it is just as much a declaration of attack as saying Christmas is a myth. Should public school students be required to take the philosophy or religious studies courses so long as they teach all beliefs? I think so. So your answer to my question of why many (not all) atheists practice the hate and intolerance they say they are against religious people doing is "well, they started it"? Weak. Edited June 4, 2012 by RkFast
NoSaint Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) So your answer is "well, they do it, too"? Weak. hasnt a large bulk of your posts in this thread been pointing fingers too? in fact the very post that sparked this last round of convo began with essentially "well they put up billboards too" Edited June 4, 2012 by NoSaint
Cynical Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 Is that why Atheists have resorted to putting billboards outside NYC tunnels and on the side of buses attacking religion? It amazes me how atheists refuse to look in the mirror. Follow your own advice before you start spouting. When the non-believers say things like the population of the religious "should be thinned out" is where they lose me. You mean this quote? The religious kooks are rampant and are in a dire need of being thinned out. Yeah, I said it. I stand behind. kooks - as in extremists, the far right, the people who feel compelled to shove religion down my throat, the ones who are busy trying to "save me" even though I have asked and then told them to leave me the *&^% alone. thinned out - there are other ways of "thinning out" besides violence. Educating those people in the proper concept of "you leave me alone, I leave you alone" would be a start.
RkFast Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 hasnt a large bulk of your posts in this thread been pointing fingers too? in fact the very post that sparked this last round of convo began with essentially "well they put up billboards too" That is not my intent. My sole point is that atheists need to practice what THEY preach. My observation is that they do A LOT of what they claim to despise.
Cynical Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 “Every year, atheists get blamed for having a war on Christmas, even if we don’t do anything,” he said. This says it all. Atheists get blamed repeatedly for something they did not do. Atheists get sick of it. Atheists push back. The spin: Atheists are closed minded and intolerant. Christians being attacked. Why do atheists do this? Why can't they leave us alone?
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