Spotlight on Wanny.

[atlbillsfan1975]

While i do not really think he would be an improvement over Chan as head coach, i think th efact he has HC experience is a huge plus.

 

I always like when a team has DC or OC or Both, that have had experience at HC. To me they understand then the big picture and how communication works. They have maybe less over all responsibility or accountability to an extent.

But all HC started on one side of the ball or the other. Now Wanny gets to focus on what he likes to do, Coach D. He does not have to worry so much about interviews and all the other BS a head coach does.

 

As far as the recruiting comment from the article....he did a nice job w M Williams!! ha

[Billsrhody]

Wanny's record as a DC speaks for himself. He's always been successful on that side of the ball and he's a great fit for our defense how its currently constructed. You have to look at the bills right now and love how their put together from a coaching and management standpoint.

 

For the first time in years they have a great offensive mind and a great defensive mind at the same time. We've got the talent and the direction to be competitors this year. I cant wait for September.

[Doc]

The point the poster was making was that GMs make the picks, except perhaps in Washington. Here, most assumed and blamed Jauron for all of the (bad) picks.

No, most blamed Jauron for that last (2009) draft, because he reportedly got final say on personnel with his extension.

[#34fan]

Why do people blame head coaches for personnel decisions? It may be so in some cases, like shanny in Washington, but it's not the norm.

 

There's a deeper history of dubious personnel decisions that occurred under Wannstedt's watch. This archived article covers a few of them. It may provide a clearer picture of things that transpired. It's a bit of a fan's perspective, but in some ways, it seems almost prophetic.My link

Typically, head coaches enjoy executive privelege in on-the-field personnel decisions, as well as draft choices. You'd better believe a coach like Mike Ditka did. It's hard for me to believe that Wannstedt (the guy who succeeded Ditka) didn't wield similar power. Like I said, I fully support Wanny as DC, but I'll be watching the outcomes of decisions in which his vote is key.

Edited May 31, 2012 by #34fan

[Adam]

Hasn't it been pretty much confirmed Marv was really a GM in title only, and relied heavily upon others (particularly Jauron) when personnel decisions were made?

That is an organizational problem, then. For all that has been said about Jauron, Cleveland went out and got him a big DT, when he arrived.

[Bronc24]

Useless thread, IMO....The 'Stache isn't a head coach, has no GM duties and doesn't need to recruit, so why worry? Let him do what he does best. That's what the organization is doing.

[RyanC883]

Good post. Thank you. It is smart to know just what we have in Wanny. I think he will be a quality DC. But as you allude to in your post, I would not want him to be our Head Coach should something happen to Chan.

 

I agree. And his defenses at Pitt were pretty good, as there were in Miami. Plus, he is not making personnel decisions, he is putting together Defensive game plans, something he is very good at. Perhaps he is the next Dick LeBeau (sp). Not a great HC, but a great DC. Some people are better as HC, OC, DC, GM's etc.

Edited May 31, 2012 by RyanC883

[bowery4]

If Chan really tanks out this season but the D is good, who is the next HC keep in mind RW likes to keep his hires in house.

Edited May 31, 2012 by bowery4

[RyanC883]

While i do not really think he would be an improvement over Chan as head coach, i think th efact he has HC experience is a huge plus.

 

I always like when a team has DC or OC or Both, that have had experience at HC. To me they understand then the big picture and how communication works. They have maybe less over all responsibility or accountability to an extent.

But all HC started on one side of the ball or the other. Now Wanny gets to focus on what he likes to do, Coach D. He does not have to worry so much about interviews and all the other BS a head coach does.

 

As far as the recruiting comment from the article....he did a nice job w M Williams!! ha

 

 

EXACTLY!! And Anderson. He also brought in McKillop (former Pitt player) who will surprise some people. At the very least he is a solid ST player, but I think he develops into a good backup ILB.

 

If Chan really tanks out this season but the D is good, who is the next HC keep in mind RW likes to keep his hires in house.

 

Well, Chan was not an in-house hire, so there is some hope. But would Wanny stay after being passed over for HC, or has he realized that he is a fantastic DC and should stay there.

[Bronc24]

I agree. And his defenses at Pitt were pretty good, as there were in Miami. Plus, he is not making personnel decisions, he is putting together Defensive game plans, something he is very good at. Perhaps he is the next Dick LeBeau (sp). Not a great HC, but a great DC. Some people are better as HC, OC, DC, GM's etc.

 

 

 

I think he has to do some recruiting of free agents (i.e. free agents will want to have to play for him). And so far, he's done a FANTASTIC job of that.

 

I'll give you that one...but recruiting high school kids and free agents are apple and oranges. He is part of a bigger team here...he was the leader of the team at Pitt and his face was the face of the program.

[billsfan89]

Because ultimately the head coach should be the one making the final choice.

 

Its almost impossible for a Head Coach not to have a heavy hand in who is going to be on the team. The head coach is the guy that is going to be developing these players and has to make sure that whoever is drafted fits the system he is implementing. Yeah a GM is likely going to make some later round picks and other decisions but the major nuts and bolts of the team is going to be decided by the head coach.

[Adam]

Its almost impossible for a Head Coach not to have a heavy hand in who is going to be on the team. The head coach is the guy that is going to be developing these players and has to make sure that whoever is drafted fits the system he is implementing. Yeah a GM is likely going to make some later round picks and other decisions but the major nuts and bolts of the team is going to be decided by the head coach.

The head coach goes to the GM with his input- the GM makes the decisions. Unless you want things to be dysfunctional.

[Ramius]

If Chan really tanks out this season but the D is good, who is the next HC keep in mind RW likes to keep his hires in house.

 

Yeah, look at all of Ralph's in-house hires for HC, like Gailey, Jauron, Mularkey, Gregggggo, Levy, Stephenson, Knox, etc.

 

Because ultimately the head coach should be the one making the final choice.

 

No, he shouldn't. GMs bring in the players, and the coaches are tasked to utilize them to the best fo their ability. Of course there needs to be communication, and the coaches should be providing input as to what positions are of a particular need, but the coach most definitely should NOT be making the final say in personnel decisions. they focus on teams and coaching, not scouting.

[John from Riverside]

First of all, any guy who can make a John Holmes porn-stache look cool in 2012, is automatically deserving of some respect.

 

I like Dave Wannstedt. -I really want to like him more, but a few details on his record give me pause.

 

Yes, I know he was the architect of that '91-'92 Dallas defense that held us to 17 points in superbowl XXVII. (They scored 52) That same defense was top 5 in several areas, but most notably was #1 against the run.

 

It wasn't the first time Wannstedt and Jimmy Johnson had teamed up for a championship. Wanny was Johnson's DC at "the U" back in 87, and won a national title there.

 

Without a doubt, Dave Wannstedt is a man who knows defense. That perhaps is why it's so hard to reconcile many of his years following superbowl 27. In 1993 Wannstedt became the Chicago Bear's first post-Ditka head coach. His six-year stint as HC in Chicago was plagued by some very questionable personnel calls. -Not the least of which was the decision to trade the Bear's first-round pick in 1997 for Seahawks QB Rick Mirer!

 

The bears had two winning seasons, and made the playoffs just once during Wannstedt's tenure. He was fired after posting back to back 4-12 seasons ('97, '98)

 

Wannstedt's Dolphin Years would be better. -Sort of.

 

Wannstedt was hired to serve as the Dolphins DC/assistant coach in 1999 under a burnt-out, and disinterested Jimmy Johnson. Wanny seemed to be a shoe-in for the HC job when Johnson quit at the end of the season.

 

The Early 2000's seemed to be Wannstedt's time. He posted back to back 11-5 seasons with playoff appearances in Miami. (2000-01) It appeared the fish had finally found their coach. However, In '02 another questionable decision went down under Wanny's watch. The Fins traded four picks (two first rounders) for the Saint's Ricky Williams. Despite Williams rushing for record numbers that season, the fins went 9-7. In '03 they improved to 10-6. Then, just before the start of the '04 season, something went terribly wrong with Ricky Williams. A week before training camp, he announced his plans to retire. Many blamed the decision on immaturity, and copious amounts of good bud.

 

However game stats would reveal that in just 2 seasons Williams had recorded a staggering 775 carries! -a figure that typically takes twice as many seasons for an NFL running back to amass. In certain NFL circles, there was talk of Wannstedt running Williams into the ground. After a 1-8 start in the '04 season, and a lackluster draft history**, Wanny was fired by the Dolphins.

 

The Six years Wanny spent at his Alma mater Pitt, wouldn't be much kinder. Despite Pitt finishing top 3 in the Big East for five out of Wanny's six years, they never reached a BCS bowl game. Wannstedt was regularly panned by the media for his poor gameday preparation, and his inability to recruit effectively***. In 2010, after a 7-5 season Wannstedt resigned under pressure from Pitt.

 

In fairness, Wanny's coaching record indicates that he makes a FAR better defensive coordinator than he does a head coach. Considering what we hired him for, I find that observation very encouraging. Still, I'll be on the lookout for those off-the-wall personnel decisions, and goofy draft picks.

 

For now, Wannstedt has my full support. I trust his experience, and his methods, because they've worked well in this capacity before. Who knows? If our D lives up to it's billing, I may even grow a big-'ol porn-stache myself. -Probably not though.

 

**Palm Beach Post. Fri, Nov 18th 2011

***Pittsburgh post gazette My link

 

The answer to this is simple.....some coaches make excellent coordinators but not good head coaches.

Edited May 31, 2012 by John from Hemet

[#34fan]

 

 

No, he shouldn't. GMs bring in the players, and the coaches are tasked to utilize them to the best fo their ability. Of course there needs to be communication, and the coaches should be providing input as to what positions are of a particular need, but the coach most definitely should NOT be making the final say in personnel decisions. they focus on teams and coaching, not scouting.

 

This may be how you feel, but it simply is not how it works.

 

First of all, you can bet a body part that Jim Harbaugh was pretty close to being the deciding factor in moving up in the '11 draft to take Colin Kaepernick . He also led the push to "evaluate" (yah, right) Peyton Manning once he was cut by the Colts.

 

By that same token, bringing in RG3 was Mike Shannahan's and NOT GM Bruce Allen's idea of a master-stroke. -It sure cost the skins enough to do it. (future draft picks) however, other than negotiating the price, this was Shanny's call.

 

And somehow, I don't see Bill Bellichick's expertise being overuled by ANYONE in the Patriots organization. Certainly not Nick Caserio, or Floyd Reese. -Not even the Kraft family for pete's sake.

 

And lastly, think about the case of poor Josh McDaniels. My link

 

Had it not been for him drafting Tim Tebow 25th overall in 2010, there might have been no such thing as Tebowmania, and no such practice as "Tebowing". (formerly known as praying.) McDaniels recieved credit/condemnation for the good and bad that came from that, as well as other questionable decisions he made as HC. Link 2 Link 3

 

Ultimately, his stint as Broncos HC would live and die by both.

 

You seem to have a "church and state" view of how the GM/HC relationship works. All I can say is thank heavens that the actual dynamic is quite different.

Edited May 31, 2012 by #34fan

[Ramius]

This may be how you feel, but it simply is not how it works.

 

First of all, you can bet a body part that Jim Harbaugh was pretty close to being the deciding factor in moving up in the '11 draft to take Colin Kaepernick . He also led the push to "evaluate" (yah, right) Peyton Manning once he was cut by the Colts.

 

By that same token, bringing in RG3 was Mike Shannahan's and NOT GM Bruce Allen's idea of a master-stroke. -It sure cost the skins enough to do it. (future draft picks) however, other than negotiating the price, this was Shanny's call.

 

And somehow, I don't see Bill Bellichick's expertise being overuled by ANYONE in the Patriots organization. Certainly not Nick Caserio, or Floyd Reese. -Not even the Kraft family for pete's sake.

 

And lastly, think about the case of poor Josh McDaniels. My link

 

Had it not been for him drafting Tim Tebow 25th overall in 2010, there might have been no such thing as Tebowmania, and no such practice as "Tebowing". (formerly known as praying.) McDaniels recieved credit/condemnation for the good and bad that came from that, as well as other questionable decisions he made as HC. Link 2 Link 3

 

Ultimately, his stint as Broncos HC would live and die by both.

 

You seem to have a "church and state" view of how the GM/HC relationship works. All I can say is thank heavens that the actual dynamic is quite different.

 

It's already been brought up in this thread that Shanny and Belicheat do have complete autonomy over personnel decisions. Most HCs don't. They work with the GM, but the GM is the one making the decisions. As for tebow and mcdaniels, how did that arrangement work out for them in denver? McDaniels is precisely the reason why you want a qualified personnel man making draft decisions, not the HC.

[Best Player Available]

It's already been brought up in this thread that Shanny and Belicheat do have complete autonomy over personnel decisions. Most HCs don't. They work with the GM, but the GM is the one making the decisions. As for tebow and mcdaniels, how did that arrangement work out for them in denver? McDaniels is precisely the reason why you want a qualified personnel man making draft decisions, not the HC.

In Denver isn't the team president making the decisions and not the GM?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

In Denver isn't the team president making the decisions and not the GM?

That's apparently true.

 

Elway seems like the decision maker and I believe they just fired their GM, Brian Xanders.

 

Every team is structured differently so this conversation with people making absolute statements about who has final authority is a bit silly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[#34fan]

It's already been brought up in this thread that Shanny and Belicheat do have complete autonomy over personnel decisions. Most HCs don't. They work with the GM, but the GM is the one making the decisions. As for tebow and mcdaniels, how did that arrangement work out for them in denver? McDaniels is precisely the reason why you want a qualified personnel man making draft decisions, not the HC.

 

I totally get what you're trying to say. Still, it seems to me (and several NFL franchises) that the guy most qualified to make on-the-field personnel decisions would be the actual guy on the field.

 

Of course, depending on your level of involvement, these decisions can bolster or damage your permanent record. The difference is always championships, -and Jewlery. That goes for coaches and GM's alike.

 

Take a guy like the Chargers A.J. Smith. -Sure, Coach Norv is free to put his two cents in every now and then, but the final decision is always A.J's -He's a complete dictator, and everyone knows it. Marty Schottenheimer butted heads with A.J. Smith before, and we all know who ended up winning that battle.

 

You can even look at a owner/GM/DESPOT like Jerry Jones. It's pretty funny how he doesn't seem to give a rat's what his HC thinks about the personnel HE chooses. It's almost a foregone conclusion that come draft-day, the first, second, and third rounds BELONG TO JERRY. if you got a problem with that, then you've got problems, my friend.

 

What can be argued, are the results of this level of control and involvement. A.J. Smith was recently labled the "Lord of NO RINGS" by a prominent player's agent, and the Cowboys have achieved little more than massive hype in the last eight years.

 

By contrast, Jim and John Harbaugh's influence as HC's are evident in their respective teams personnel decisions. The same can be said of Pete Carroll, Sean Payton, and Mike Tomlin. Most of those franchises seem to be doing ok.

 

IMO, Head Coaching autonomy exists for a valid reason and isn't just reserved for the Mike Shannahan's, and Bill Bellichick's of the NFL. -The GM may see talent, but the HC sees how that talent can be put to use. Personally, I'd go with the opinion of the latter.

Edited June 1, 2012 by #34fan

[#34fan]

That's apparently true.

 

Elway seems like the decision maker and I believe they just fired their GM, Brian Xanders.

 

Every team is structured differently so this conversation with people making absolute statements about who has final authority is a bit silly.

 

You're 100% right about team structure part.

 

I believe in going into situations "Eyes Wide Open" IMO, you should know as much as you can about a person before wholeheartedly throwing your support behind them.

 

As I said previously, I fully support Dave Wannstedt as DC. I started this thread to provide a little historical perspective for those who may recognize the epic 'stache, but not know alot about the coach and person.

Edited June 1, 2012 by #34fan