#34fan Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) First of all, any guy who can make a John Holmes porn-stache look cool in 2012, is automatically deserving of some respect. I like Dave Wannstedt. -I really want to like him more, but a few details on his record give me pause. Yes, I know he was the architect of that '91-'92 Dallas defense that held us to 17 points in superbowl XXVII. (They scored 52) That same defense was top 5 in several areas, but most notably was #1 against the run. It wasn't the first time Wannstedt and Jimmy Johnson had teamed up for a championship. Wanny was Johnson's DC at "the U" back in 87, and won a national title there. Without a doubt, Dave Wannstedt is a man who knows defense. That perhaps is why it's so hard to reconcile many of his years following superbowl 27. In 1993 Wannstedt became the Chicago Bear's first post-Ditka head coach. His six-year stint as HC in Chicago was plagued by some very questionable personnel calls. -Not the least of which was the decision to trade the Bear's first-round pick in 1997 for Seahawks QB Rick Mirer! The bears had two winning seasons, and made the playoffs just once during Wannstedt's tenure. He was fired after posting back to back 4-12 seasons ('97, '98) Wannstedt's Dolphin Years would be better. -Sort of. Wannstedt was hired to serve as the Dolphins DC/assistant coach in 1999 under a burnt-out, and disinterested Jimmy Johnson. Wanny seemed to be a shoe-in for the HC job when Johnson quit at the end of the season. The Early 2000's seemed to be Wannstedt's time. He posted back to back 11-5 seasons with playoff appearances in Miami. (2000-01) It appeared the fish had finally found their coach. However, In '02 another questionable decision went down under Wanny's watch. The Fins traded four picks (two first rounders) for the Saint's Ricky Williams. Despite Williams rushing for record numbers that season, the fins went 9-7. In '03 they improved to 10-6. Then, just before the start of the '04 season, something went terribly wrong with Ricky Williams. A week before training camp, he announced his plans to retire. Many blamed the decision on immaturity, and copious amounts of good bud. However game stats would reveal that in just 2 seasons Williams had recorded a staggering 775 carries! -a figure that typically takes twice as many seasons for an NFL running back to amass. In certain NFL circles, there was talk of Wannstedt running Williams into the ground. After a 1-8 start in the '04 season, and a lackluster draft history**, Wanny was fired by the Dolphins. The Six years Wanny spent at his Alma mater Pitt, wouldn't be much kinder. Despite Pitt finishing top 3 in the Big East for five out of Wanny's six years, they never reached a BCS bowl game. Wannstedt was regularly panned by the media for his poor gameday preparation, and his inability to recruit effectively***. In 2010, after a 7-5 season Wannstedt resigned under pressure from Pitt. In fairness, Wanny's coaching record indicates that he makes a FAR better defensive coordinator than he does a head coach. Considering what we hired him for, I find that observation very encouraging. Still, I'll be on the lookout for those off-the-wall personnel decisions, and goofy draft picks. For now, Wannstedt has my full support. I trust his experience, and his methods, because they've worked well in this capacity before. Who knows? If our D lives up to it's billing, I may even grow a big-'ol porn-stache myself. -Probably not though. **Palm Beach Post. Fri, Nov 18th 2011 ***Pittsburgh post gazette My link Edited May 31, 2012 by #34fan
Chas56 Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Good post. Thank you. It is smart to know just what we have in Wanny. I think he will be a quality DC. But as you allude to in your post, I would not want him to be our Head Coach should something happen to Chan.
playman Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 First of all, any guy who can make a John Holmes porn-stache look cool in 2012, is automatically deserving of some respect. I like Dave Wannstedt. -I really want to like him more, but a few details on his record give me pause. Yes, I know he was the architect of that '91-'92 Dallas defense that held us to 17 points in superbowl XXVII. (They scored 52) That same defense was top 5 in several areas, but most notably was #1 against the run. It wasn't the first time Wannstedt and Jimmy Johnson had teamed up for a championship. Wanny was Johnson's DC at "the U" back in 87, and won a national title there. Without a doubt, Dave Wannstedt is a man who knows defense. That perhaps is why it's so hard to reconcile many of his years following superbowl 27. In 1993 Wannstedt became the Chicago Bear's first post-Ditka head coach. His six-year stint as HC in Chicago was plagued by some very questionable personnel calls. -Not the least of which was the decision to trade the Bear's first-round pick in 1997 for Seahawks QB Rick Mirer! The bears had two winning seasons, and made the playoffs just once during Wannstedt's tenure. He was fired after posting back to back 4-12 seasons ('97, '98) Wannstedt's Dolphin Years would be better. -Sort of. Wannstedt was hired to serve as the Dolphins DC/assistant coach in 1999 under a burnt-out, and disinterested Jimmy Johnson. Wanny seemed to be a shoe-in for the HC job when Johnson quit at the end of the season. The Early 2000's seemed to be Wannstedt's time. He posted back to back 11-5 seasons with playoff appearances in Miami. (2000-01) It appeared the fish had finally found their coach. However, In '02 another questionable decision went down under Wanny's watch. The Fins traded four picks (two first rounders) for the Saint's Ricky Williams. Despite Williams rushing for record numbers that season, the fins went 9-7. In '03 they improved to 10-6. Then, just before the start of the '04 season, something went terribly wrong with Ricky Williams. A week before training camp, he announced his plans to retire. Many blamed the decision on immaturity, and copious amounts of good bud. However game stats would reveal that in just 2 seasons Williams had recorded a staggering 775 carries! -a figure that typically takes twice as many seasons for an NFL running back to amass. In certain NFL circles, there was talk of Wannstedt running Williams into the ground. After a 1-8 start in the '04 season, and a lackluster draft history**, Wanny was fired by the Dolphins. The Six years Wanny spent at his Alma mater Pitt, wouldn't be much kinder. Despite Pitt finishing top 3 in the Big East for five out of Wanny's six years, they never reached a BCS bowl game. Wannstedt was regularly panned by the media for his poor gameday preparation, and his inability to recruit effectively***. In 2010, after a 7-5 season Wannstedt resigned under pressure from Pitt. In fairness, Wanny's coaching record indicates that he makes a FAR better defensive coordinator than he does a head coach. Considering what we hired him for, I find that observation very encouraging. Still, I'll be on the lookout for those off-the-wall personnel decisions, and goofy draft picks. For now, Wannstedt has my full support. I trust his experience, and his methods, because they've worked well in this capacity before. Who knows? If our D lives up to it's billing, I may even grow a big-'ol porn-stache myself. -Probably not though. **Palm Beach Post. Fri, Nov 18th 2011 ***Pittsburgh post gazette My link you said it there. no need to fear his bad HC-decisions. hes our DC. and buddy picks.
BobChalmers Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 you said it there. no need to fear his bad HC-decisions. hes our DC. and buddy picks. Right - the point the OP ended up arguing for is far smaller than the one he was trying for. Wanny as D/C - very good. Wanny as H/C, just so-so. Since he's our D/C, NOT our H/C, and not likely to be the H/C any time soon - (How much younger is he than Gailey?? - answer, not at all, they were both born in '52) - his record as a head coach is not really our concern at all.
bmur66 Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Sounds like a guy that needs a good support system around him. I think he has that here.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Why do people blame head coaches for personnel decisions? It may be so in some cases, like shanny in Washington, but it's not the norm.
Just Jack Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Why do people blame head coaches for personnel decisions? It may be so in some cases, like shanny in Washington, but it's not the norm. Because ultimately the head coach should be the one making the final choice.
Doc Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 So, we like Wanny as DC, but don't want him as HC? Great, because that's all he is at the present time.
scribo Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Because ultimately the head coach should be the one making the final choice. On draft choices and trades? No way. Those are rightfully the GM's duties. Yes, the head coach should have an input, but the GM is responsible for building the roster and the coach is responsible for getting the most possible out of the roster. It RARELY works when the coach is also acting as the GM. As for the original article, the important takeaway on Wanny's past is that he knows how to coach very well, so the Bills are putting his best qualities to use. How refreshing.
Just Jack Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 On draft choices and trades? No way. Those are rightfully the GM's duties. Yes, the head coach should have an input, but the GM is responsible for building the roster and the coach is responsible for getting the most possible out of the roster. It RARELY works when the coach is also acting as the GM. I do see your point but I'm gonna have to respectly disagree. The GM should be getting the draft choices and trades done, but not making the choice. If the head coach says he's wants player A, the GM should do his best to make it happen, not say too bad, you're getting player B. I do agree with you though that a head coach should not be a GM. Has there been any team that had that work succesfully?
eball Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 I do see your point but I'm gonna have to respectly disagree. The GM should be getting the draft choices and trades done, but not making the choice. If the head coach says he's wants player A, the GM should do his best to make it happen, not say too bad, you're getting player B. I do agree with you though that a head coach should not be a GM. Has there been any team that had that work succesfully? Clearly, the best scenario is when the GM and HC are working in concert with one another and have the same vision for the franchise. While the GM is ultimately responsible for building the team, if he's doing it without the input of the HC there is something wrong. Similarly, the HC should be getting the input of his OC, DC, and ST coaches. Thankfully, Chan and Buddy appear to be joined at the hip. As for the OP, I don't see anything to be worried about. Wanny knows how to coach defense, and that's what he's here to do -- nothing else.
Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Why do people blame head coaches for personnel decisions? It may be so in some cases, like shanny in Washington, but it's not the norm. And Jauron? Sure seems so reading here.
eball Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 And Jauron? Sure seems so reading here. Hasn't it been pretty much confirmed Marv was really a GM in title only, and relied heavily upon others (particularly Jauron) when personnel decisions were made?
mjt328 Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 I do see your point but I'm gonna have to respectly disagree. The GM should be getting the draft choices and trades done, but not making the choice. If the head coach says he's wants player A, the GM should do his best to make it happen, not say too bad, you're getting player B. I do agree with you though that a head coach should not be a GM. Has there been any team that had that work succesfully? Every team has its own system. Some don't even have a general manager. On a team like New England (Belichek) or Washington (Shanahan), the personnel decisions pretty much start and stop with the head coach. On others - such as Oakland when Al Davis was alive - the owner seems to have the final say on all player movement. The most successful teams seem to split duties between the GM and Head Coach. I get the impression that our setup is currently very similar to this. It's hard to tell whether Ralph is still pulling strings in the background though.
bigc14120 Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Every team has its own system. Some don't even have a general manager. On a team like New England (Belichek) or Washington (Shanahan), the personnel decisions pretty much start and stop with the head coach. On others - such as Oakland when Al Davis was alive - the owner seems to have the final say on all player movement. The most successful teams seem to split duties between the GM and Head Coach. I get the impression that our setup is currently very similar to this. It's hard to tell whether Ralph is still pulling strings in the background though. Trent Edwards was Ralph's last pick.....and he got two starting games grace before the heave ho as a result of that status. Chan dumped him in favor of Fitz in game 3, 2010 if you recall. Make no mistake, that was Ralph's call, giving Edwards the opportunity, and chan (and buddy) who gave Trent his walking papers.
UConn James Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 As clear an example of the Peter Principle as I've seen in football. DC? Yes. Having anything to do with offense or the overarching management of the entire team? Nope.
Mr. WEO Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Hasn't it been pretty much confirmed Marv was really a GM in title only, and relied heavily upon others (particularly Jauron) when personnel decisions were made? The point the poster was making was that GMs make the picks, except perhaps in Washington. Here, most assumed and blamed Jauron for all of the (bad) picks.
eball Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 The point the poster was making was that GMs make the picks, except perhaps in Washington. Here, most assumed and blamed Jauron for all of the (bad) picks. Gotcha, I think he was just making a generalization. Regardless, it's safe to assume most believe neither Jauron nor Levy did a good job of selecting personnel or building a team, for the most part.
Dr. K Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 I'm glad we've got him as DC and I expect him to do well. But I also think he's made some questionable talent calls. For example, I believe it was Wanny who said (while coaching the Bears in the mid-1990s), when the Bills drafted Eric Moulds, that he would not want Moulds on his team at any price.
scribo Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 I do see your point but I'm gonna have to respectly disagree. The GM should be getting the draft choices and trades done, but not making the choice. If the head coach says he's wants player A, the GM should do his best to make it happen, not say too bad, you're getting player B. I do agree with you though that a head coach should not be a GM. Has there been any team that had that work succesfully? I fully agree that the GM and coach must be working together with the same vision for the team. Remember, the GM hires (and can fire) the head coach, so the GM is going to hire a coach who shares the same philosophy. Clearly, the best scenario is when the GM and HC are working in concert with one another and have the same vision for the franchise. While the GM is ultimately responsible for building the team, if he's doing it without the input of the HC there is something wrong. Similarly, the HC should be getting the input of his OC, DC, and ST coaches. Thankfully, Chan and Buddy appear to be joined at the hip. As for the OP, I don't see anything to be worried about. Wanny knows how to coach defense, and that's what he's here to do -- nothing else. Bingo.
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