Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 To the op..., Nix has got his act together. I havnt seen this kind of young talent on the bills in 2 decades.
thewildrabbit Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 There are several points I'd like to address: You and I are using different definitions for the word "bust." That's fine--as long as we don't waste everyone else's time with a pointless, endless, and ultimately unwinnable argument about whose definition is correct. In regards to the bust opinion, all you need to do is "google" NFL busts and you will get 10 pages on the subject. Not one of the players you mention is listed as a bust. I'm fine with you keeping your opinion and I'll stop trying to convince you otherwise. Jabari Greer didn't suddenly blossom into a solid contributor with the Saints. He was also a solid contributor and starter for the Bills. Which is why the Bills should have re-signed him. Instead, they let him leave in free agency in the prime of his career. And used a top-12 pick on his replacement. Which is exactly the entire point Ive been trying in vain to get across to you. Many of the Bills coaches under Jauron were morons and didn't know how to coach up players or evaluate them properly. Its why players like Jeer, Jim Leonhard left the Bills secondary and went on to become starters and stars on other teams.It wasn't the players fault for not being coached properly while in Buffalo. Or even acknowledged to be a good enough player to stay on the team. If Whitner sucked as bad as you think, then why didn't the coaches trade or dump him? My point, blame the coaches for any lack of success and not the players. Who knows what they could have accomplished on better teams. If you take a standard-issue NFL backup RB, and give him enough carries, he'll become a 1000 yard rusher. A few 1000 yard seasons should not be seen as an indication that a RB is good enough to justify even a third round pick, let alone a first round pick. A better measurement is yards per carry. However--unless a RB's name is Barry Sanders--yards per carry is dictated more by the quality of the OL's run blocking than by the RB himself. So you compare a RB's yards per carry against that of his backups, on the theory they both received the same run blocking. Antowain Smith's yards per carry wasn't that much different than his backups'. That's one of the reasons why Antowain Smith wasn't a particularly sought-after free agent after he and the Bills parted ways. Another subject with which I wholeheartedly disagree with you on. I can only guess you don't understand the pounding and hits that RB's take playing in the NFL. There are some players you could give 1000 carries and they would never get 1000 yards in a season, or even stay healthy enough to get that many carries. Antowain Smith wasn't coveted because he basically only ran out of the I formation and wasn't as versatile a player like Fred Jackson or Thurman Thomas. Still, he managed to rush for 2x 1000 yards, had a 10 year career and ended up with 2x super bowl rings from the Patriots. Pretty gosh darn far from a "bust" in my opinion. The fact that Donte Whitner was a starter for a number of years doesn't mean he was a good player. It just means the Bills felt he was a better player than George Wilson. (Though there were times when Wilson took Whitner's starting spot.) The correct measurement of Whitner's worth is free agency; because that represents the collective judgement of NFL GMs. The fact he had all those starts gave them a large body of work at which to look. They determined his worth was a quality backup/lower tier starter. It doesn't matter, Whitner started day one and remained the starter until he left the Bills. Do you not get the fact that Whitner went to a team that was one game away from a super bowl and Whitner was the starting safety the entire year for them. Not only that, he made big several big hits during his season with the 49ers. Very reminiscent of Ronnie Lott. That one youtube video of Whitner hitting Pierre Thomas so hard he fumbled the ball and was knocked out of the game with a concussion, some say that single hit won that game for the Niners. Fred Jackson is one of the best RBs in the league. There is no shame in Spiller being stuck behind him on the depth chart. Spiller looked good in limited playing time last season, and may be given more opportunities this season. At very least, he appears to be a significantly more athletic and talented RB than Antowain Smith had been. I get a kick out of this. I have been sorta fixated on Smith because of his long career and his SB rings, I had forgotten you also proclaimed a 2x time pro bowler in Marshawn Lynch a bust. a 3x 1000 yard rusher who also took a back seat to Fred Jackson. Its nice to know that your sorta saying that because Spiller has been a 2 year backup and riding the bench behind Jackson he shouldn't be considered a bust. Can't have it both ways EA The Bills should not have been desperate for a safety in 2006, because 2006 was a rebuilding year! You don't reach for a safety at 8th overall when there were much better football players available at more valuable positions. Even if the Bills had gone 0-16 in 2006 due to the lack of a SS, no one would have gotten fired, because it was the honeymoon period. And the Bills would have had the first overall pick of the 2007 draft. The Whitner selection represented short term, "sacrifice tomorrow for today" thinking at a time when such thinking was completely unnecessary. I had never figured you to be one who is stuck on degrading ex Buffalo Bills players like so many fans do in this forum because they played on bad teams. I blame the coaches for all those years of losing. I also blame the owner for not wanting to spend the money to hire a top GM, a top HC, a top president.
thewildrabbit Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) You make a number of good points. Let me address the Hangartner cut. It was not a football decision. It was a Littman mandated budget cut. Paul Hamilton from WGR made the comment prior to the season that Hangartner was vulnerable to being cut because of his salary. An indication that was going to happen was that Hangartner barely got playing time in preseason because of the risk of an injury. Sure enough, prior to the regular season he got cut and was picked up by his former team, Carolina, and ended up playing well for them as a starter. I agree with you that Hangartner was a versatile linemen who would have been an asset to the team. The primary reason for which he was released reflects why the team struggled for so long i.e. player decisions based on financial rather than football considerations. Make no mistake that in a cap system salaries relative to performance are part of the calculation, but in Buffalo the balance was skewed towards the financial side. I don't understand why there is such a resistance to the Spiller selection. NYC Bill is zealous in his campaign against him. What I often say to him is that he was a top ten player taken in the top ten. I'm not going to criticize the organization for following the successful script of drafting players in the range where they are ranked. Baltimore and Green Bay adhere to that approach and it has proven to be successful. The book on Spiller is not finished. He showed, at least to me, that he is capable of being an impact player on a team lacking in impact offensive players. Based on what he showed me last year I'm confident that this is going to be a breakout year for him. There is no doubt that Jason Pierre Paul is a sterling player. However, he was considered a raw prospect with a lot of physical talents but still very inexperienced. He went to the Giants and played on a line that had a rotation of six high octane linemen. That certainly wouldn't have been the case if he went to Buffalo. The glittering production he had with the Giants would not have materialized in Buffalo. Your criticism of the poor accumulated record of Gailey/Nix is unfair. They took over a team that was mediocre at best. The roster needed to be rebuilt from top to the bottom. They were remaking a Levy/Jauron roster that fit with the light/quick philosophy and reworked into a bigger and bulkier roster on both sides of the ball. It was going to take at least a few years to redo the roster. This is the year where the higher expectations should be applied. If this team doesn't elevate its performance then Nix/Gailey should be held accountable. This is the third year of Nix's tenure where he has not only refashioned the roster but more importantly overhauled the football operation. Viewing his win/lost record for his first two years as a reflection of his work in unfair and unreasonable. This is the year where the record will be very telling. . But in fact the roster still hasn't been rebuilt from top to bottom, most of the offensive starters and stars are all from the Jauron era. When Nix first took over one of his statements was "your not going to believe this, but were are not that far away" Buddy Nix only changed like 5 players from that 2010 season and only 3 starters on opening day from what I see. Those 3...LB Reggie Tobor, LB Akin Ayodele, RT Cornell Green. Where are they now? The 2011opening day team difference LB Nick Barnett, LB Kirk Morrison, TE Scott Chandler, OT Erik Pears, OG Kraig Urbik, WR David Nelson, DT Marcell Darius. 7 players out of 22 doesn't consist of a complete rebuild from top to bottom IMO. 5 of those 7are waiver wire pick ups But I agree with you in saying that this year should be very telling. Nix did his job this year in finally bringing in a top pass rusher / LT. Now its up to Gailey to get the wins. As a head coach Levy understood his strengths and more importantly his limitations. He allowed the OC and DC to run their own side of the ball without much interference. ML's forte was special teams. There are a lot of different approaches to success. If one's philosophy or managerial style is being hands off and more of a manager and it works then so be it. If one has a more authoritarian and involved type of style and it works then so be it. There are a lot of successful DA's who manage their office by allowing the assitant DAs to do all the trial work. Then there are DAs who get directly invovled in cases and who prefer being involved in the courtroom with high profile cases. There are successful CEOs in business who mostly delegate and there are successful CEOs who are more directly involved in the business. There is no one way to be successful other than being true to oneself and belmg accountable for the outcome. Levy the GM was not the problem. The source of the problem was the inexplicable selection of Levy to be the GM by the clueless owner. Excellent post. Thank you! Good to know someone else agrees with me on that subject Edited June 1, 2012 by Fear the Beard
JohnC Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) . But in fact the roster still hasn't been rebuilt from top to bottom, most of the offensive starters and stars are all from the Jauron era. When Nix first took over one of his statements was "your not going to believe this, but were are not that far away" Buddy Nix only changed like 5 players from that 2010 season and only 3 starters on opening day from what I see. Those 3...LB Reggie Tobor, LB Akin Ayodele, RT Cornell Green. Where are they now? The 2011opening day team difference LB Nick Barnett, LB Kirk Morrison, TE Scott Chandler, OT Erik Pears, OG Kraig Urbik, WR David Nelson, DT Marcell Darius. 7 players out of 22 doesn't consist of a complete rebuild from top to bottom IMO. 5 of those 7are waiver wire pick ups But I agree with you in saying that this year should be very telling. Nix did his job this year in finally bringing in a top pass rusher / LT. Now its up to Gailey to get the wins. The organization from top to bottom has been remade. The old guard such as Modrak, Guy, Brandon out of the football operation, coaching staff and how decisions are made has dramatically changed. With respect to the players you can't get rid of everyone at the same time. Edwards was given an opportunity to be the franchise qb but failed. He was released. Levitre and Woods remain but the rest of the OL has been rebuilt through the draft and mid-level free agent acquisitions. The defense's personnel has certainly changed and just as important so has its philosophy. The DL is bigger and bulkier. Nix didn't carte blanche get rid of all the players from the prior regime; that would have been not only a foolish approach to take but also self-defeating. Tom Donahoe is the type of GM to replace players from a prior regime just for the sake of emphasizing his own stamp of authority on the franchise. Nix is too wise and secure to make such an ego-driven decisions. My basic point is that the franchise under Nix is being run in a professional and competent manner. Not everyone is going to agree with the individual player moves and draft picks. For sure not every player decision is going to work out----as it is not going to work for all franchises. I'm not attempting to portray Nix as a football genius or a sophisticated GM who will make creative moves to wow the oberver. That is not who he is and how he operates. He is simply a sound football person who has a belief on how to rebuild a franchise and has the confidence to implement those beliefs. Under many of the prior regimes it is fair to say that the organization was simply second-rate. Decisions were too often quirky and short-term patch-work responses to roster shortcomings. At least now there is a coherency and direction as to how the organization is managed. Teams such as the Steelers, Packers and the Ravens are the best at possessing an organizational identity. I see that development occurring with the Bills. Edited June 1, 2012 by JohnC
Orton's Arm Posted June 1, 2012 Author Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) I had never figured you to be one who is stuck on degrading ex Buffalo Bills players like so many fans do in this forum because they played on bad teams. I blame the coaches for all those years of losing. I also blame the owner for not wanting to spend the money to hire a top GM, a top HC, a top president. Several points: You are getting too caught up on the whole starter/non-starter thing. Steve Young was a backup for many years in San Francisco. That doesn't mean he was a failure. Melvin Fowler was a starter for a number of years with the Bills. That doesn't mean he was any good. You should pay more attention to the quality of a player's play, not just whether he was a starter. In limited playing time, Spiller played very well. In extensive playing time, Whitner's play was mediocre, and he had considerable problems covering TEs. The fact that Jabari Greer left in free agency was not due to bad coaching. Greer played well for the Bills; but the Bills' GM didn't offer him enough money to stay. Most here praised the quality of Greer's play while he was with the Bills, and rightly so. You may be correct to say that there are some NFL backup RBs who could not take the pounding of being a starter. But on what basis do you imply that a typical NFL backup RB would be unable to have a 1000 yard season due to injuries? And even if you were right about that--you're not, but even if you were--how does that make Antowain Smith significantly more valuable than, say, a collection of backup RBs--guys who as a committee could achieve about the same yards per carry that Smith would have achieved? You keep bringing up how well San Francisco's defense did with Whitner on board, and how well the Patriots team did while Antowain Smith was there. And yet you don't mention the Bills' struggles on offense back when we had Antowain Smith, or the Bills' struggles on defense back when Whitner was our starting SS. This is a double standard. "you also proclaimed a 2x time pro bowler in Marshawn Lynch a bust." Any time you take a player 12th overall, and turn him into a fourth and sixth rounder just a few years into his career, the pick can't be considered anything other than a failure. Edited June 1, 2012 by Edwards' Arm
nucci Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 The organization from top to bottom has been remade. The old guard such as Modrak, Guy, Brandon out of the football operation, coaching staff and how decisions are made has dramatically changed. With respect to the players you can't get rid of everyone at the same time. Edwards was given an opportunity to be the franchise qb but failed. He was released. Levitre and Woods remain but the rest of the OL has been rebuilt through the draft and mid-level free agent acquisitions. The defense's personnel has certainly changed and just as important so has its philosophy. The DL is bigger and bulkier. Nix didn't carte blanche get rid of all the players from the prior regime; that would have been not only a foolish approach to take but also self-defeating. Tom Donahoe is the type of GM to replace players from a prior regime just for the sake of emphasizing his own stamp of authority on the franchise. Nix is too wise and secure to make such an ego-driven decisions. My basic point is that the franchise under Nix is being run in a professional and competent manner. Not everyone is going to agree with the individual player moves and draft picks. For sure not every player decision is going to work out----as it is not going to work for all franchises. I'm not attempting to portray Nix as a football genius or a sophisticated GM who will make creative moves to wow the oberver. That is not who he is and how he operates. He is simply a sound football person who has a belief on how to rebuild a franchise and has the confidence to implement those beliefs. Under many of the prior regimes it is fair to say that the organization was simply second-rate. Decisions were too often quirky and short-term patch-work responses to roster shortcomings. At least now there is a coherency and direction as to how the organization is managed. Teams such as the Steelers, Packers and the Ravens are the best at possessing an organizational identity. I see that development occurring with the Bills. Great statement, John. Describes Buddy perfectly.
JohnC Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 Great statement, John. Describes Buddy perfectly. Thanks for the compliment. As much as I bash the owner I have to give him credit for selecting Buddy to run the football operation and then giving him the authority to run the operation. When the owner selected the "mature" Nix instead of choosing a young hotshot GM prospect from a winning team I was as skeptical as anyone else. The more I observe how the franchise is being run the more impressed I am with him. He is a self-effacing person who has little interest in self-promotion. He is the antithesis of the insufferable Tom Donahoe who spent a good chunk of his time demonstrating to others how smart he was or more accurately he thought he was. TD made the mistake of being dismissive of the proud old owner. That was a big mistake. In the end the real boss showed him the door. It has been a very long time since I felt that this franchise had a legitimate chance to compete with the better organizations. I do now. It's mostly due to the person with the pronounced southern drawl.
K-9 Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 Thanks for the compliment. As much as I bash the owner I have to give him credit for selecting Buddy to run the football operation and then giving him the authority to run the operation. When the owner selected the "mature" Nix instead of choosing a young hotshot GM prospect from a winning team I was as skeptical as anyone else. The more I observe how the franchise is being run the more impressed I am with him. He is a self-effacing person who has little interest in self-promotion. He is the antithesis of the insufferable Tom Donahoe who spent a good chunk of his time demonstrating to others how smart he was or more accurately he thought he was. TD made the mistake of being dismissive of the proud old owner. That was a big mistake. In the end the real boss showed him the door. It has been a very long time since I felt that this franchise had a legitimate chance to compete with the better organizations. I do now. It's mostly due to the person with the pronounced southern drawl. This is a great "cake and eat it, too" situation with Whaley waiting in the wings. Nice to have that "young hotshot" learning from Nix. From a football operations standpoint, we are in as good a position for the long haul as we've been in 20 years. GO BILLS!!!
JohnC Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 This is a great "cake and eat it, too" situation with Whaley waiting in the wings. Nice to have that "young hotshot" learning from Nix. From a football operations standpoint, we are in as good a position for the long haul as we've been in 20 years. GO BILLS!!! In Nix's first year Whaley was the chief pro scout. Last year he did more work in the college scouting department. As you indicated he is being groomed for the GM position. If I recall correctly it was Cowhrer when he was being courted by the Bills who highly recommended him for the organization. When he was being recruited by the Bills the Steelers thought highly enough of him to offer him a raise and more responsibility to stay. As I stated in prior posts Buddy Nix has done a superb job in thoroughly reconstituting the organization. That is the necessary infrastructure that enables a franchise to consistently function well.
thewildrabbit Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Several points: You are getting too caught up on the whole starter/non-starter thing. Steve Young was a backup for many years in San Francisco. That doesn't mean he was a failure. Melvin Fowler was a starter for a number of years with the Bills. That doesn't mean he was any good. Clearly you fail to fathom my point about the inability of the Buffalo Bills coaches to put the players in position to make plays in bad schemes. My take was that Whitner was usually so worried about doing everybody else's job that he was unable to focus on his own job in Jauron's defense*...in the backfield making all those tackles that the losers in front of him miss on! 140 tackles in 2010. Whitner is a SS. Depending on the scheme, SS don't always collect big INT numbers. Look at Roman Harper on the Saints. He's been a two-time Pro-Bowler, but has 0 INT in his two pro-bowl seasons and only 4 for his career, which started in 2006 (the same class as Whitner). I'm done arguing this point and will happily concede the understanding that so far you and Bill from NYC are the only people on the planet that think D Whitner, A Smith, M Lynch, are busts! ---------- You should pay more attention to the quality of a player's play, not just whether he was a starter. In limited playing time, Spiller played very well. In extensive playing time, Whitner's play was mediocre, and he had considerable problems covering TEs.You should pay more attention to the quality of player's play!! CJ Spiller was named the starting RB in 2010 opening day because both starters were out with minor injuries( both Lynch (knee) & Jackson (hand) That starting job lasted about 5 offensive plays until Gailey saw that Spiller couldn't block for protections, couldn't find a hole, couldn't run a route and was promptly benched. Jackson went in with a cast on his hand and on the next play caught the ball. Spiller has been very slow to learn the offense and understand his role in blocking schemes. A #1st round pick at RB and #9 overall that has been a back up for two years, is less of a bust then a 6 year starter who has started from day one....uh huh, sure. Spiller hasn't proven anything at this point, and he sure as hell is more of a bust then Antowain Smith or Marshawn Lynch. Jeez dude you just can't let it go can ya. To call Lynch and Smith a bust and say that Spiller isn't ....is so Homerfied you give new profound meaning to the term homer. ---- The fact that Jabari Greer left in free agency was not due to bad coaching. Greer played well for the Bills; but the Bills' GM didn't offer him enough money to stay. Most here praised the quality of Greer's play while he was with the Bills, and rightly so.Again you miss my point about the coaches inability to properly judge the talent of players on the team, and their inability to "coach up" up players properly. Like I've said numerous times, I blame the coaches and the schemes, and not the players. Whereas you blame the players! ---- You may be correct to say that there are some NFL backup RBs who could not take the pounding of being a starter. But on what basis do you imply that a typical NFL backup RB would be unable to have a 1000 yard season due to injuries? And even if you were right about that--you're not, but even if you were--how does that make Antowain Smith significantly more valuable than, say, a collection of backup RBs--guys who as a committee could achieve about the same yards per carry that Smith would have achieved? You keep bringing up how well San Francisco's defense did with Whitner on board, and how well the Patriots team did while Antowain Smith was there. And yet you don't mention the Bills' struggles on offense back when we had Antowain Smith, or the Bills' struggles on defense back when Whitner was our starting SS. This is a double standard. No, again you fail to grasp the concept that a player can play better on a different team with better players around him, coached properly, and in better schemes! ---- "you also proclaimed a 2x time pro bowler in Marshawn Lynch a bust." Any time you take a player 12th overall, and turn him into a fourth and sixth rounder just a few years into his career, the pick can't be considered anything other than a failure. Only in your mind... you still fail to understand the concept that the Buffalo Bills coaching staff's failed to properly motivate it players, or understand how to properly utilize its players. Bills OC Steve Fairchild knew how to utilize both Lynch and Jackson in the running game. Lynch is a freight train and Jackson is a Jaguar, Lynch was the feature back and workhorse. Jackson was the 3rd down back and receiver. Pound Lynch into the line to soften them up and then let Freddy loose on them once they are worn down a little. Both player's each had 100 yards against the Dolphins in 2007. It was the fact that Turk Schonert was named OC after Fairchild left Buffalo to take a head coaching job in college. Schonert didn't understand how to utilize his RB's properly and the result was a down season for him in 2008-09. I can recall watching the kid go for the hole only to see the hole close as he hit it, he would still make yards dragging 3 defenders on him. A player can do that only so many times before they become discouraged. Jackson OTOH is much more elusive and therefore broke tackles and made yards on his own without much help from his O line. Marshawn Lynch finished the 2011 season with 1204 yards and 12 TD's. Lynch was added to the pro bowl roster for 2011 due to Frank Gore being out with an injury. Lynch set a Seahawk team record for 10 consecutive games with a TD. On Mar 4th Lynch signed a 4 year 31 million dollar contract.... 7.75 million a year, pretty darn good for a bust I had thought you were much more knowledgeable about the Bills then from what I'm reading here. You mostly just sound like sour grapes to me. Edited June 2, 2012 by Fear the Beard
thewildrabbit Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 The organization from top to bottom has been remade. The old guard such as Modrak, Guy, Brandon out of the football operation, coaching staff and how decisions are made has dramatically changed. With respect to the players you can't get rid of everyone at the same time. Edwards was given an opportunity to be the franchise qb but failed. He was released. Levitre and Woods remain but the rest of the OL has been rebuilt through the draft and mid-level free agent acquisitions. The defense's personnel has certainly changed and just as important so has its philosophy. The DL is bigger and bulkier. Nix didn't carte blanche get rid of all the players from the prior regime; that would have been not only a foolish approach to take but also self-defeating. Tom Donahoe is the type of GM to replace players from a prior regime just for the sake of emphasizing his own stamp of authority on the franchise. Nix is too wise and secure to make such an ego-driven decisions. My basic point is that the franchise under Nix is being run in a professional and competent manner. Not everyone is going to agree with the individual player moves and draft picks. For sure not every player decision is going to work out----as it is not going to work for all franchises. I'm not attempting to portray Nix as a football genius or a sophisticated GM who will make creative moves to wow the oberver. That is not who he is and how he operates. He is simply a sound football person who has a belief on how to rebuild a franchise and has the confidence to implement those beliefs. Under many of the prior regimes it is fair to say that the organization was simply second-rate. Decisions were too often quirky and short-term patch-work responses to roster shortcomings. At least now there is a coherency and direction as to how the organization is managed. Teams such as the Steelers, Packers and the Ravens are the best at possessing an organizational identity. I see that development occurring with the Bills. Your quote that I bolded was about the roster, so my reply was about the roster! The bulk of the stars on the team are all still from the Jauron era! Your criticism of the poor accumulated record of Gailey/Nix is unfair. They took over a team that was mediocre at best. The roster needed to be rebuilt from top to the bottom. They were remaking a Levy/Jauron roster that fit with the light/quick philosophy and reworked into a bigger and bulkier roster on both sides of the ball. It was going to take at least a few years to redo the roster. Again, the Bills only made like 5 player moves in 2010. Remember the Buddy Nix line when free agency opened for that year. "I'm going to get some sleep" The result was RT Cornell Green, Reggie Tobor and LB Akin Ayodele! What a clusterfck! 2010 result was 4-12 because Nix didn't do a very good job ,and Gailey didn't help with DC George Edwards trying to switch defensive schemes.Not to mention Gailey hiring a bunch of college coaches that needed to learn how to coach at the NFL level. 2011 was better but the failure of Nix to add depth to that O line, plus Nix allowed DC George Edwards to keep his job and keep the team in a 3-4 scheme resulted in 6-10. Adding that Chan Gailey seemed determined to cut his own throat with his moronic play calling the 2nd half of last season. Not sure if it was contrived to get a better draft pick, sure seemed desperate tho. I still fail to understand why the pass rush and O line were not properly addressed in 2010. Just understand that Nix allowed that move to a 3-4, allowed the hire of George Edwards. Perhaps the reason was to bottom out the franchise to rebuild it properly? I dunno. What I do know is karma can be a B word. Did the Bills screw themselves by committing solely to Fitz, by not moving up in the draft to get tallywhacker, by not going after Matt Flynn in free agency? Is the right side of that O line strong enough? Do they still need a #2 WR? Anyway, Yea I agree and really applaud what Buddy Nix did with the scouting dept and org.(Nix getting rid of Modrak was almost as good as the day RW fired jauron) Plus I applaud the draft and free agency this year. Just don't know why it took so long.
JohnC Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 I still fail to understand why the pass rush and O line were not properly addressed in 2010. Just understand that Nix allowed that move to a 3-4, allowed the hire of George Edwards. Perhaps the reason was to bottom out the franchise to rebuild it properly? I dunno. What I do know is karma can be a B word. Did the Bills screw themselves by committing solely to Fitz, by not moving up in the draft to get tallywhacker, by not going after Matt Flynn in free agency? Is the right side of that O line strong enough? Do they still need a #2 WR? Anyway, Yea I agree and really applaud what Buddy Nix did with the scouting dept and org.(Nix getting rid of Modrak was almost as good as the day RW fired jauron) Plus I applaud the draft and free agency this year. Just don't know why it took so long. Do you expect magic? Do you really believe that all roster weaknesses are going to be addressed in one or two years? Is Matt Flynn better than Fitz? Do you think an elite franchise qb is easily attainable? The Bills went to a 3-4 defense. It didn't work primarily because they didn't have the right personnel. So they changed the defense to the more conventional 4-3. Recongnizing something doesn't work and a coaching problem (the problem due to a lack of talented defensive players) and responding fairly quickly to rectify the problems is a good thing. Isn't that better than not decisively reacting to the problem areas? It is rare even with a major front office change that mediocre teams are immediately turned into being highly competitive. It takes time and patience. Identifying weaknesses is very easy. Getting the right players to rectify the weaknesses takes time and is not easily done, at least not as easy as you make it out to be.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Several points: "you also proclaimed a 2x time pro bowler in Marshawn Lynch a bust." Any time you take a player 12th overall, and turn him into a fourth and sixth rounder just a few years into his career, the pick can't be considered anything other than a failure. Dude, all respect, I think you're conflating draft position, scheme, and team business decisions with whether or not a man can play football. Lynch is not a failure as a football player. He can play. He didn't play to his potential in Buffalo, one can talk about why. He may have been involved in questionable business decisions, such as trading him for a 4th and 6th rounder when many think he could have been traded for more. But that's conflating his B'lo draft position, the way he was utilized in B-lo, and B'lo team business decisions with the quality of a player. You might consider that the purpose of language is generally held to be communication, which only takes place when the speaker/writer and listener/reader have common definitions of the words used. So you can define "bust" any way you like, and use it any way you like, but if your goal is to communicate, it typically helps that goal to use words as they're commonly defined or used. "Bust" to most of us, means "player drafted in the 1st 3-4 rounds who just can't play football at the pro level" or "player drafted in the 1st 3-4 rounds who tanks due to illness/injury" Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell are famous examples of busts. John McCargo, Aaron Maybin, James Hardy, Chris Ellis, Shawn Nelson, Derek Fine, and Ko Simpson are some Bills players drafted from 2006-2009 who could justifyably be termed "busts" and no one would argue. When a guy is starting, and shows at least flashes that he can play football, has success or even goes to the Probowl with other teams, he's not a "bust" by the commonly used meaning of the term, and if you insist on using the word that way, just expect to create confusion and pointless argument instead of discussing or persuading people to what I think are your actual points, that the Bills have spent way too much draft power post-Polian on RBs and DBs. That latter is a valid point and well worth discussing. I personally don't know that it's the root cause. I think consistently spending high draft choices on non-DB non-RB players who can't play football at the pro level (ie, are genuinely busts) had as much or more to do with it. If Aaron Maybin John McCargo and Chris Ellis had turned out to be quality DL starters and Shawn Nelson and Derek Fine were quality TEs, wouldn't we have been far better off? Edited June 2, 2012 by Hopeful
The Senator Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) If it will bring a merciful end to yet another ridiculously-premised, long-winded, excessively verbose, self-indulgent, and meaningless EA thread, I will concede the OP's original point... Nix may be different than the other Bills GMs that preceded him! (There...see how easy that was? ) GO BILLSSS!!! "I expect to be undefeated...I expect to win every game." - Chan Gailey 19 and 0 baby!!!!! . Edited June 2, 2012 by The Senator
thewildrabbit Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Do you expect magic? Do you really believe that all roster weaknesses are going to be addressed in one or two years? Is Matt Flynn better than Fitz? Do you think an elite franchise qb is easily attainable? The Bills went to a 3-4 defense. It didn't work primarily because they didn't have the right personnel. So they changed the defense to the more conventional 4-3. Recongnizing something doesn't work and a coaching problem (the problem due to a lack of talented defensive players) and responding fairly quickly to rectify the problems is a good thing. Isn't that better than not decisively reacting to the problem areas? It is rare even with a major front office change that mediocre teams are immediately turned into being highly competitive. It takes time and patience. Identifying weaknesses is very easy. Getting the right players to rectify the weaknesses takes time and is not easily done, at least not as easy as you make it out to be. First off, 2 years isn't very quickly IMO. Then, good football people would have never even tried to make the transition from an undersized player 4-3 Tampa 2 scheme to a 3-4. That entire process was a huge mistake from the get go. Even trying to incorporate a 3-4 when the team is already lacking talent at LB was ridiculous. Most Bills fans in this forum were asking why make that change, that very same question why over and over the last two years. No it isn't rare. I don't know why you insist on defending the mistakes made by this regime their first two years.I expected the proper results right away, like I think most Bills fans did! I also know so many here that had more expectations for the 2010 team then 4-12, and they couldn't believe that this new regime would do so much worse then Jauron. The entire world knew the Bills needed a better option at LT since they traded Jason Peters, and they needed a better option at pass rush when Aaron Schobel retired. It shouldn't take two years to fix those issues. Face it, that 2010 draft class looks abysmal at this point. Nix did a very poor job in 2010 in both the draft and the free agency period, whether you care to acknowledge it or not. First example, SF 49ers went from 6-10 to 13-3 in one year by hiring the right head coach in Jim Harbough. Don't forget that last off season was a strike shortened off season so the new coaches had less time to prepare the players. Harbough indeed pulled off some magic by getting a QB (who everyone else had written off as a bust) to play very well. John Harbough also went to a fading Raven team in 2008 and had immediate impact. 5-11 to 11-5.-Mike Smith went to the Falcons in 2008 and they went from 4-12 to 11-5. The Falcons have made the playoffs 3 of 4 years under Smith and new GM Thomas Dimitrof. -Last year the Denver Broncos went from 4-12 to 8-8 and made the playoffs under new HC John Fox. Now the team brought in Peyton Manning as QB. wow, just wow! -The Green Bay Packers under Mike McCarthy 4-12 in 2005, to 8-8 in 2006, to 13-3 in 2007. -The KC Chiefs under Haley 4-12 in 2009 to 10-6 in 2010, yea he got fired in 2011after his QB only played 9 games before an injury sent him to the IR, and his starting RB was on the IR by week 2. To me, it looks like the new DC tanked the defense to get the HCing job, and it worked. -The Dolphins in 2007 went 1-15 and new HC got them to 11-5 in one year. Now that team pinned its hopes on the wrong QB in Chad Henne, and still hasn't found a decent QB to lead them. This team is being lead by the worst GM in the league in Jeff Ireland. I daresay Jauron / Levy would be better -The Lions in 2009 2-14 and from a perennial loser to 6-10 in 2010 under Jim Schwartz , to 10-6 in 2011. Its far from rare that bad teams become good team almost instantly when they finally find the right head coach / GM. I believe that the Bills have had some really good talent on their teams the last 5 years or so, and whats been holding them back is missing a few key players and bad coaching. Gailey hired a bunch of assistant coaches with no NFL experience and those coaches needed on the job training plus the fact that Nix didn't find those missing key players in 2010. Bottom line is, Nix finally got off his as$ this year and got some things done in terms of players. It still remains to be seen in Gailey can put a winning team on the field with the current players. Will Chan Gailey ever have success as a HC while calling the offensive plays and setting up the entire offensive game plan? I'm still not convinced Gailey is the answer at HC!
thewildrabbit Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 If it will bring a merciful end to yet another ridiculously-premised, long-winded, excessively verbose, self-indulgent, and meaningless EA thread, I will concede the OP's original point... Nix may be different than the other Bills GMs that preceded him! (There...see how easy that was? ) GO BILLSSS!!! "I expect to be undefeated...I expect to win every game." - Chan Gailey 19 and 0 baby!!!!! . But...but...but, the 2012 NFL season is soooo far away. still 2 more months till training camp. Whats a bust? That thing in canton? Where there is one of Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Bruce Smith. ...no Andre Reed or Steve Tasker yet
sllib olaffub Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 Another aspect critical to the success of the Bills that cannot be understated, and which the GM is ultimately also responsible for, is coaching. Nix can bring in the right players - and to that end, I say again, I haven't seen a roster as loaded with talent as this one is, and having it be a Bills team, since the mid to early 90's - but, if the coaches aren't good, then the team will ultimately fail. The coaches/coaching are responsible for a lot, and I think the choice of coaches is, in the end, equal to or even maybe more influential to, the eventual legacy of a GM as is bringing in players. Say a GM's philosophy is building a team through the draft. How are the young players going to develop and supplant the veterans without the best coaching? Also, coaches have to understand how to use their players to maximize their talent (many coaches are responsible for players looking bad, and then a new team turns them miraculously into better players), and coaches also have to understand their opponents, and give the team, week in and out, a viable game plan. So, Nix comes in and doesn't have anything to prove to the world, but a lot to prove to himself, and Gailey is the same way. They are building their legacy here and we're getting to watch it unfold. Imagine how Jerry Jones will feel when Buffalo ends up being a better team in the coming years than his Cowboys!
JohnC Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 First off, 2 years isn't very quickly IMO.the answer at HC! A two year rebuild is not only very quick but also very improbable. At least to me it is. The Bills were far from having the foundation to make a quick turnaround. If you think the team that Nix inherited was on the verge to respectability then we have a fundamental disagreement that can't be bridged.
thewildrabbit Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 Another aspect critical to the success of the Bills that cannot be understated, and which the GM is ultimately also responsible for, is coaching. Nix can bring in the right players - and to that end, I say again, I haven't seen a roster as loaded with talent as this one is, and having it be a Bills team, since the mid to early 90's - but, if the coaches aren't good, then the team will ultimately fail. The coaches/coaching are responsible for a lot, and I think the choice of coaches is, in the end, equal to or even maybe more influential to, the eventual legacy of a GM as is bringing in players. Say a GM's philosophy is building a team through the draft. How are the young players going to develop and supplant the veterans without the best coaching? Also, coaches have to understand how to use their players to maximize their talent (many coaches are responsible for players looking bad, and then a new team turns them miraculously into better players), and coaches also have to understand their opponents, and give the team, week in and out, a viable game plan. So, Nix comes in and doesn't have anything to prove to the world, but a lot to prove to himself, and Gailey is the same way. They are building their legacy here and we're getting to watch it unfold. Imagine how Jerry Jones will feel when Buffalo ends up being a better team in the coming years than his Cowboys! Which begs the question as to why Nix even allowed the hiring of DC George Edwards and then allowed his 2 year horrific run. While allowing the unmitigated disaster of switching schemes without the proper personnel. I'm just a Bills fan, armchair QB NOT getting paid millions of dollars a year to make key decisions in a billion dollar org, and yet I never would have made that switch to a 3-4. This was also voiced by many of the fans in this forum and even stated such as it happened. I keep reading post after post about how great "football men" Nix & Gailey are, and yet in their first two years failed to even equal in wins what many consider the worst head coach this team has had in 10 years. I just hope that last statement comes to fruition!
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 First off, 2 years isn't very quickly IMO. Then, good football people would have never even tried to make the transition from an undersized player 4-3 Tampa 2 scheme to a 3-4. That entire process was a huge mistake from the get go. Even trying to incorporate a 3-4 when the team is already lacking talent at LB was ridiculous. Most Bills fans in this forum were asking why make that change, that very same question why over and over the last two years. No it isn't rare. I don't know why you insist on defending the mistakes made by this regime their first two years.I expected the proper results right away, like I think most Bills fans did! I also know so many here that had more expectations for the 2010 team then 4-12, and they couldn't believe that this new regime would do so much worse then Jauron. The entire world knew the Bills needed a better option at LT since they traded Jason Peters, and they needed a better option at pass rush when Aaron Schobel retired. It shouldn't take two years to fix those issues. Face it, that 2010 draft class looks abysmal at this point. Nix did a very poor job in 2010 in both the draft and the free agency period, whether you care to acknowledge it or not. First example, SF 49ers went from 6-10 to 13-3 in one year by hiring the right head coach in Jim Harbough. Don't forget that last off season was a strike shortened off season so the new coaches had less time to prepare the players. Harbough indeed pulled off some magic by getting a QB (who everyone else had written off as a bust) to play very well. John Harbough also went to a fading Raven team in 2008 and had immediate impact. 5-11 to 11-5.-Mike Smith went to the Falcons in 2008 and they went from 4-12 to 11-5. The Falcons have made the playoffs 3 of 4 years under Smith and new GM Thomas Dimitrof. -Last year the Denver Broncos went from 4-12 to 8-8 and made the playoffs under new HC John Fox. Now the team brought in Peyton Manning as QB. wow, just wow! -The Green Bay Packers under Mike McCarthy 4-12 in 2005, to 8-8 in 2006, to 13-3 in 2007. -The KC Chiefs under Haley 4-12 in 2009 to 10-6 in 2010, yea he got fired in 2011after his QB only played 9 games before an injury sent him to the IR, and his starting RB was on the IR by week 2. To me, it looks like the new DC tanked the defense to get the HCing job, and it worked. -The Dolphins in 2007 went 1-15 and new HC got them to 11-5 in one year. Now that team pinned its hopes on the wrong QB in Chad Henne, and still hasn't found a decent QB to lead them. This team is being lead by the worst GM in the league in Jeff Ireland. I daresay Jauron / Levy would be better -The Lions in 2009 2-14 and from a perennial loser to 6-10 in 2010 under Jim Schwartz , to 10-6 in 2011. Its far from rare that bad teams become good team almost instantly when they finally find the right head coach / GM. I believe that the Bills have had some really good talent on their teams the last 5 years or so, and whats been holding them back is missing a few key players and bad coaching. Gailey hired a bunch of assistant coaches with no NFL experience and those coaches needed on the job training plus the fact that Nix didn't find those missing key players in 2010. Bottom line is, Nix finally got off his as$ this year and got some things done in terms of players. It still remains to be seen in Gailey can put a winning team on the field with the current players. Will Chan Gailey ever have success as a HC while calling the offensive plays and setting up the entire offensive game plan? I'm still not convinced Gailey is the answer at HC! spiller is a awesome, could be the next marshall faulk, troup got hurt, carrington is a beast, easley has been hurt, batten is a solid backup who can start and make a few plays, moats has been a steal as a really good edge/speed rusher. and moats is getting better... if you also count heard and jones as rufa that could set off any loses in injuries to easley and troup, you are looking at a stellar class. this is a borderline stupid comment...
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