Post-Polian failure, and why Nix may be different

[thewildrabbit]

spiller is a awesome, could be the next marshall faulk, troup got hurt, carrington is a beast, easley has been hurt, batten is a solid backup who can start and make a few plays, moats has been a steal as a really good edge/speed rusher. and moats is getting better... if you also count heard and jones as rufa that could set off any loses in injuries to easley and troup, you are looking at a stellar class.

 

this is a borderline stupid comment...

I said that draft class LOOKS abysmal at this point, nobody from that draft class is even starting.... Its been 2 years!

Edited June 3, 2012 by Fear the Beard

[Bill from NYC]

spiller is a awesome, could be the next marshall faulk, carrington is a beast

 

Marshall Faulk is a top 10 all time back. Spiller doesn't start. Case closed.

 

Carrington? Beast? I have high hopes for him but he consistently fails to make plays.

 

[JohnC]

Marshall Faulk is a top 10 all time back. Spiller doesn't start. Case closed.

 

Carrington? Beast? I have high hopes for him but he consistently fails to make plays.

 

 

An interesting development to watch in this upcoming season is whether Carrington and Troup become contributing players. Right from the beginning I felt that Troup was over drafted. At this point it is unfair to judge him because he has been hurt.

 

With respect to Carrington I was more intriqued with his selection than with the Troup pick. So far I have been very disappointed with his lack of production and regular tendency to be invisible on the field. In hindsight Nix made a mistake in initially deciding on going to a 3-4 defense and then having to change back to the more conventional 4-3. I'm not even sure if Carrington is going to be playing as a DE or a DT in passing downs? I'm not sure whether the coaches want him to get bigger and stronger or lighter and quicker?

 

With respect to Spiller our views are irreconcilable. This year will determine which of us is more right with our assessments. Based on his performances after Jackson got hurt I'm more confident in my position that he is going to be a big play player for us. Be patient Bill----you will be pleasantly surprised.

Edited June 3, 2012 by JohnC

[thewildrabbit]

An interesting development to watch in this upcoming season is whether Carrington and Troup become contributing players. Right from the beginning I felt that Troup was over drafted. At this point it is unfair to judge him because he has been hurt.

 

With respect to Carrington I was more intriqued with his selection than with the Troup pick. So far I have been very disappointed with his lack of production and regular tendency to be invisible on the field. In hindsight Nix made a mistake in initially deciding on going to a 3-4 defense and then having to change back to the more conventional 4-3. I'm not even sure if Carrington is going to be playing as a DE or a DT in passing downs? I'm not sure whether the coaches want him to get bigger and stronger or lighter and quicker?

 

With respect to Spiller our views are irreconcilable. This year will determine which of us is more right with our assessments. Based on his performances after Jackson got hurt I'm more confident in my position that he is going to be a big play player for us. Be patient Bill----you will be pleasantly surprised.

That 2010 draft class can be somewhat forgiven because Modrak and co. were still with the Bills. I still think whomever put that Cornell Green folder on Nix's desk should have been fired at the same point they cut Green, in week 5 of 2010.

 

In regards to Spiller, his "wonderlic" score says a lot...he scored a 10. That's ok tho, he is in good company as QB Jeff George also scored a 10. Vince Young scored a 16...

Anyway, RB's don't necessarily need to be brainiacs! Just suggesting a reason as to why he was so slow to develop, and why he had no clue as to what he was doing when Gailey named him the starting RB in 2010. Box of hammers anyone? You almost wonder what he was doing in college?

 

Not to worry tho, Fitz posted one of the highest scores ever for that test. Also, Spiller has a brilliant veteran RB to learn under in Fred Jackson

[MDH]

With respect to Spiller our views are irreconcilable. This year will determine which of us is more right with our assessments. Based on his performances after Jackson got hurt I'm more confident in my position that he is going to be a big play player for us. Be patient Bill----you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

With RBs you need to get everything you can out of them in their first contract. Spiller is already 2 years in and the Bills have gotten virtually nothing from a position that is the easiest to transition to in the NFL. In addition, he's sitting behind one of the best RBs in the league - how much do you really think they're going to get out of him?

 

As of right now, 2 years after he got drafted in the top 10, he's a good backup RB. He might be a very good RB, but when you can't get on the field without an injury you are considered a luxury pick.

 

And I hope to hell I'm not pleasantly surprised with Spiller this year because for that to happen Jackson has to go down with another injury - and that's the last thing I want.

[JohnC]

With RBs you need to get everything you can out of them in their first contract. Spiller is already 2 years in and the Bills have gotten virtually nothing from a position that is the easiest to transition to in the NFL. In addition, he's sitting behind one of the best RBs in the league - how much do you really think they're going to get out of him?

 

As of right now, 2 years after he got drafted in the top 10, he's a good backup RB. He might be a very good RB, but when you can't get on the field without an injury you are considered a luxury pick.

 

And I hope to hell I'm not pleasantly surprised with Spiller this year because for that to happen Jackson has to go down with another injury - and that's the last thing I want.

 

When Spiller replaced Jackson after he was hurt he averaged nearly five yards a carry playing with a patched OL. If you watched him last year compared to his first year he was a much more disciplined runner who kept to his lanes rather than wander outside trying to get more out of the play that was available. When he got significant playing time CJ was the best (skill player) on the field.

 

I don't buy the argument that just because a player splits time with another player that it is a reflection of a lack of ability. The majority of teams use multiple backs who have different running styles and skills. The tandem of Jackson and Spiller enhances our offense, not detracts from our offense.

 

There is no doubt that Spiller struggled in his first year. So what? There is nothing unusual about rookies, at all positions, struggling to adjust from the college game to the pro game. It's simply part of the learning process that all players have to contend with.

 

This year is going to be telling as to whether the Spiller pick was a quality pick or not. From what I saw last year I'm very confident that he is going to be a central player for us.

Edited June 4, 2012 by JohnC

[MDH]

I don't buy the argument that just because a player splits time with another player that it is a reflection of a lack of ability.

 

 

That's good, because I wasn't selling that idea. I even stated that he might be a very good RB. However, he's sitting on the bench for the majority of the snaps which doesn't give the Bills much of a return on their investment.

 

When Jackson was playing Spiller averaged 2.1 carries per game last year. He didn't split time, he barely got on the field when Jackson was healthy.

 

And while Spiller did have an impressive YPC stat and was capable of busting out a big play every now and then he still averaged less than 15 carries per game after he started and except for the Miami game he wasn't much of a receiving threat either. He's not exactly a guy who can shoulder the load when a team needs it.

 

The main issue Spiller has is that he is a prototypical 3rd down back but can't get on the field as such because he's nowhere near as good on 3rd downs as Fred Jackson - who might just be the best blitz pickup back in the league. In addition to blitz pickups Jackson has a sense of when to stay and block and when to go out into the flat as a receiver. Not Spiller's fault that Jackson is so good but why draft a guy in the top 10 when you already have a complete back as your starter?

 

So yeah, Spiller is a quality complimentary back, good for a handfull of touches a game as a change of pace and will definitely help the offense this year - but are his contributions worthy of where he was drafted? You can get a backup who carries the ball 2 times a game in the 7th round or as an undrafted FA.

 

And I'm not blasting Spiller at all, the guy seems like a quality individual and does the best he can on the field, it's not his fault he was drafted 9th overall and sits behind one of the best backs in the league. But the bottom line is that if you can't get on the field when you're drafted in the top 10 then the selection hasn't panned out. I'd rather have an above average LB, DT, OL, etc. who plays the majority of snaps each and every week than a guy who might be very good but who sits on the bench.

[Bill from NYC]

With respect to Spiller our views are irreconcilable. This year will determine which of us is more right with our assessments. Based on his performances after Jackson got hurt I'm more confident in my position that he is going to be a big play player for us. Be patient Bill----you will be pleasantly surprised.

 

My displeasure with the selection seems to have led you to interpret my comment above as an attack. It wasn't. But to compare Spiller to Faulk is WAY out there imo. How many backs in the history of football would Faulk have sat on the bench for? And as good as he is, Fred Jackson isn't one of them.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Bill from NYC

[thewildrabbit]

That's good, because I wasn't selling that idea. I even stated that he might be a very good RB. However, he's sitting on the bench for the majority of the snaps which doesn't give the Bills much of a return on their investment.

 

When Jackson was playing Spiller averaged 2.1 carries per game last year. He didn't split time, he barely got on the field when Jackson was healthy.

 

And while Spiller did have an impressive YPC stat and was capable of busting out a big play every now and then he still averaged less than 15 carries per game after he started and except for the Miami game he wasn't much of a receiving threat either. He's not exactly a guy who can shoulder the load when a team needs it.

 

The main issue Spiller has is that he is a prototypical 3rd down back but can't get on the field as such because he's nowhere near as good on 3rd downs as Fred Jackson - who might just be the best blitz pickup back in the league. In addition to blitz pickups Jackson has a sense of when to stay and block and when to go out into the flat as a receiver. Not Spiller's fault that Jackson is so good but why draft a guy in the top 10 when you already have a complete back as your starter?

 

So yeah, Spiller is a quality complimentary back, good for a handfull of touches a game as a change of pace and will definitely help the offense this year - but are his contributions worthy of where he was drafted? You can get a backup who carries the ball 2 times a game in the 7th round or as an undrafted FA.

 

And I'm not blasting Spiller at all, the guy seems like a quality individual and does the best he can on the field, it's not his fault he was drafted 9th overall and sits behind one of the best backs in the league. But the bottom line is that if you can't get on the field when you're drafted in the top 10 then the selection hasn't panned out. I'd rather have an above average LB, DT, OL, etc. who plays the majority of snaps each and every week than a guy who might be very good but who sits on the bench.

Same thing I stated about Whitner, it wasn't his fault that the moron Jauron drafted him so high.

 

This post basically describes my point against what the OP stated in that Lynch, Smith, Whitner are busts, but Spiller isn't!

 

 

The thing that really gets me is the way Chan Gailey utilized Spiller very sparingly once Jackson went on IR, almost like he was afraid to use him for fear he would get injured. Chris Johnson and Jamaal Charles have about the exact same build, and they take a pounding.

 

Not only that, why not put him out as a WR / slot instead of Brad Smith. It just makes no sense to me to have a back up QB at WR when you have a player like Spiller with elite speed. Unless of course he couldn't learn the routes.

[Orton's Arm]

Spiller has only two seasons under his belt. The book on him has not yet been written. On the one hand, he's been unable to get many reps, due to the Bills having one of the RBs and third down RBs in the league (Fred Jackson). On the other hand, Spiller looked good in limited playing time last season. It's too soon to say whether Spiller will play at or near the level one would expect from the ninth overall pick.

 

The point has been made that even if Spiller lives up to his draft status, it did not necessarily make sense for the Bills to take a RB so early. Why take a RB so early when you already have Fred Jackson? And when there were players at least as good at Spiller available at other positions? It's quite possible for the Spiller pick to be a strategic error, even if he plays like you'd expect a RB picked in the top-15 to play.

 

I Googled the following: Whitner, bust. That search returned 2.9 million results. Eight of the ten results on the first page either called him a bust, or at least addressed the question of whether he should be considered a bust. (The other two search results were irrelevant.) The first result was an article from Buffalo Sports Daily. It pointed out the question of whether Whitner is a bust could be argued either way. It contained the statement that, "Unfortunately, Whitner after five years hasn’t given the Bills, at least in terms of impact plays, anything another dime-per-dozen safety doesn’t produce on other teams." It concluded with, "Congratulations, Donte. You’re not a bust—- Instead, we’ll label you as serviceable."

 

I also Googled: "Marshawn Lynch", bust. The first result was this article. It contains the following text:

 

Last season in 12 games for the Seahawks Lynch carried the ball 165 times for 573 yards (3.5 YPC) with six touchdowns while averaging only 47.8 yards per game. Meanwhile his counterpart Justin Forsett carried the ball 118 times for 523 yards (4.4 YPC) with two touchdowns showing he was a full yard better than Lynch with the same offensive line.

 

In hindsight, perhaps I would have been better served by stating that players like Whitner and Lynch were "major disappointments" rather than "busts." That would have prevented this thread from getting sidetracked into a pointless debate about what does or does not constitute a "bust." In any case, I hope that most people here can agree that the Whitner selection represented the destruction of the vast majority of the value of the 8th overall pick; just as the Lynch selection represented the destruction of the vast majority of the 12th overall pick.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Edwards' Arm

[JohnC]

My displeasure with the selection seems to have led you to interpret my comment above as an attack. It wasn't. But to compare Spiller to Faulk is WAY out there imo. How many backs in the history of football would Faulk have sat on the bench for? And as good as he is, Fred Jackson isn't one of them.

 

I didn't interpret your comment about Faulk as an attack on Spiller. Faulk is a HOF player and there is no comparison. Last year, before Jackson got hurt he was arguably the best back in the NFL. It was smart of the HC to stick with and overload the more effective back at the time.

 

All I'm suggesting is that it is my opinion that Spiller (based on his performance) is going to be a high quality player for us. This season should bring more light to our respective divergent opinions.

Edited June 4, 2012 by JohnC

[thewildrabbit]

 

In hindsight, perhaps I would have been better served by stating that players like Whitner and Lynch were "major disappointments" rather than "busts." That would have prevented this thread from getting sidetracked into a pointless debate about what does or does not constitute a "bust." In any case, I hope that most people here can agree that the Whitner selection represented the destruction of the vast majority of the value of the 8th overall pick; just as the Lynch selection represented the destruction of the vast majority of the 12th overall pick.

It is so difficult to deal with someone so set in their thinking that nothing they read will even make them consider changing their mind.....

 

 

What you get with bad teams is usually bad choices all around, bad choices in coaches, bad choices in the schemes those bad coaches run. Bad choices in the players they select. Even when bad coaches make the right choices on players, the players don't always play their best because they are hindered in bad systems, bad schemes.

 

I don't even blame Aaron Maybin or John McCargo, I blame the moron who drafted them , I also blame the moron who hired the guy who drafted them