ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted May 21, 2012 Posted May 21, 2012 I never said it was about loyalty. It's about being risk averse. Moorman is safer than Powell. Right ot wrong, that's a key criterion for a lot of teams in signing kickers and punters. I think Powell is going to have to be an appreciatively better upgrade (not just an upgrade) in order to unseat Moorman. I agree. Everybody loves a football star who is humble. If Powell is an upgrade over Moorman but not grateful for the opportunity to make a good living playing a game, we should cut him!
vincec Posted May 21, 2012 Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) Powell didnt have the option.....he was drafted.... No he wasn't. No he wasn't. Potter was drafted. Powell was signed as a UDFA. Yes. Don't confuse poster with facts. I love smart ass posts like this when the poster doesn't even know what he is talking about. Don't confuse the poster with the facts is right. I guess making a smart ass comment is more important than being right. Edited May 21, 2012 by vincec
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Some of the decisions are gonna be affected by contract status. Moorman is in the final year of a 3-year, $10 million extension. His base salary is $1.45 million. Moorman is one of the highest paid punters in the NFL. Just 3 months ago Lindell signed a 4-year, $11 million contract making him one of the highest paid kickers in the league. Lindell obviously is not going anywhere and the Bills have basically stated that they WILL carry two kickers this year. I personally expect to see Moorman replaced this year. We shall see.
Doc Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 What would be ideal is if Powell could KO. Would save a roster spot.
BillsWatch Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 What would be ideal is if Powell could KO. Would save a roster spot. Or be long snapper although that would hard to beat out since our Long Snapper has never missed a snap as far as I heard.
Juice_32 Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Or be long snapper although that would hard to beat out since our Long Snapper has never missed a snap as far as I heard. This would be ideal. Also can he pass, catch and run?
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Do you acknowledge the drastic decline in Moorman's performance over the last three years? Based on my eye, I think he has regressed. But based on the stats, he had his best yards per kick average last year--something like 48 ypk. I generally agree with you, but not so much here. If he shows about equal talent, I think we keep him over Moorman. Moorman is still a decent punter, but he's lost his elite skills, and at age 36 is definitely on the downslope of his career. His stats match my eyeballs have seen, a downward slope. Maybe M levels out for a while and is just a decent punter. I've no problem with that. But what if he drops off a cliff? He's old by athletic standards, but not wildly old by punter standards. Punter ages from last year: 27, 31, 30, 25, 30, 29, 35, 33, 26 28, 28, 26, 29, 30, (36), 37, 33, 29 24, 38, 23, 33, 26, 24, 32, 25 (that's most of them. I got bored) In that mostly complete list there are 3 older than Moorman. One is Lechler. Jacksonville drafted a guy in the 3rd round to replace a 33yo. So out of about 30 punters 5 are 35+, as of LAST year. So being over 35 isn't a death sentance but there clearly aren't many. If Powell is good, we'll keep him, so that we'll have the position locked up for 15 years, rather than 1-2? Sometimes you keep a young player that has a likely upside rather than a vet on the slide. Nice analysis. I think with age, the concern is whether the guy still has any juice in his leg. Seems like Moorman can still kick the ball pretty far. What has been puzzling is that his short, directional kicks haven't been nearly as good--that seems to be more a problem with technique than age/loss of power.
eball Posted May 22, 2012 Author Posted May 22, 2012 Based on my eye, I think he has regressed. But based on the stats, he had his best yards per kick average last year--something like 48 ypk. That's probably the least relevant statistic to measure a punter's effectiveness. It's all about net average, punts inside the 20, and touchbacks. In all of those categories -- particularly inside the 20 and touchbacks -- Moorman has shown a significant decline over the past three seasons.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 That's probably the least relevant statistic to measure a punter's effectiveness. It's all about net average, punts inside the 20, and touchbacks. In all of those categories -- particularly inside the 20 and touchbacks -- Moorman has shown a significant decline over the past three seasons. I'm not really defending Moorman--he's seemed to me to be on the decline. But I did look at his stats, and he hasn't regressed statistically as I would have thought and as you've suggested. For example, his net average and inside 20 last year was in line with the rest of his seasons. Touchbacks have gone up some. My original point is that I just don't think this will be an "open competition," because teams seem to go with vet kickers over rookies.
eball Posted May 22, 2012 Author Posted May 22, 2012 I'm not really defending Moorman--he's seemed to me to be on the decline. But I did look at his stats, and he hasn't regressed statistically as I would have thought and as you've suggested. For example, his net average and inside 20 last year was in line with the rest of his seasons. Touchbacks have gone up some. My original point is that I just don't think this will be an "open competition," because teams seem to go with vet kickers over rookies. I thought I showed somewhere the difference between the years '05-'08 (Moorman's heyday) and '09-'11. It's ridiculously clear how the stats have declined. I do understand your original point; it's just that Moorman hasn't been a "very good" punter for several years now.
The Big Cat Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 I'm not really defending Moorman--he's seemed to me to be on the decline. But I did look at his stats, and he hasn't regressed statistically as I would have thought and as you've suggested. For example, his net average and inside 20 last year was in line with the rest of his seasons. Touchbacks have gone up some. My original point is that I just don't think this will be an "open competition," because teams seem to go with vet kickers over rookies. Yes he has. Inside the 20 percentage 2011, 2010, 2009 (respectively) 28, 23, 28 Inside the 20 percentage 2008, 2007, 2006 (respectively) 40, 37, 36 TB percentage 2011, 2010, 2009 (respectively) 14, 9, 11 TB percentage 2008, 2007, 2006 (respectively) 9, 4, 8 Net Avg. 2011, 2010, 2009 (respectively) 38.1, 36.6, 40.2 Net Avg. 2008, 2007, 2006 (respectively) 39.1, 37.6, 39.2
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Yes he has. Inside the 20 percentage 2011, 2010, 2009 (respectively) 28, 23, 28 Inside the 20 percentage 2008, 2007, 2006 (respectively) 40, 37, 36 TB percentage 2011, 2010, 2009 (respectively) 14, 9, 11 TB percentage 2008, 2007, 2006 (respectively) 9, 4, 8 Net Avg. 2011, 2010, 2009 (respectively) 38.1, 36.6, 40.2 Net Avg. 2008, 2007, 2006 (respectively) 39.1, 37.6, 39.2 To my eye, only the "inside the 20" appears to have regressed significantly over the last three years. By the way, I'm not sure when in this thread I started defending Moorman's stats. I've seen what all of you have seen--he hasn't been as good the last few years. Again, even conceding that, I'm going to go on record as saying that Powell, merely by virtue of being a rookie, has a really uphill battle to make this team, and the heavy odds are on Moorman.
The Big Cat Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 To my eye, only the "inside the 20" appears to have regressed significantly over the last three years. By the way, I'm not sure when in this thread I started defending Moorman's stats. I've seen what all of you have seen--he hasn't been as good the last few years. Again, even conceding that, I'm going to go on record as saying that Powell, merely by virtue of being a rookie, has a really uphill battle to make this team, and the heavy odds are on Moorman. And his TB percentage. His worst year of the three prior years has been his best of the the last. Moorman's stats reflects his performance, which has suffered. Imagine this scenario in a vaccum: 36 year old NFL player has seen a noticeable decline in performance over the past three years. A first year player has exhibited potential to perform as well, if not better. Now defend keeping the vet over the fresh meat. THAT'S what you've been doing, and it's fundamentally INSANE.
Matt in KC Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 And his TB percentage. His worst year of the three prior years has been his best of the the last. Moorman's stats reflects his performance, which has suffered. Imagine this scenario in a vaccum: 36 year old NFL player has seen a noticeable decline in performance over the past three years. A first year player has exhibited potential to perform as well, if not better. Now defend keeping the vet over the fresh meat. THAT'S what you've been doing, and it's fundamentally INSANE. I personally think Moorman is quickly coming to the end of the road, but I'll jump in and play devil's advocate with what you pose. If Moorman and the rookie are performing at about the same level, we keep Moorman. He has proven over the years that he can perform under pressure and knows the weather and quirks of the Ralph. We also know how he works and handles gimself with the coaches, other players and the media. Until we see his competition perform better, in simlar conditions, why would we want the distraction of changing punters and the damage to our season if he can't handle it over the full season in some way? Punters are readily avilable. Is Powell going to be unavailable if we cut him? Is he really far better than another punter we could bring in next year to replace Moorman if needed? You might not agree, but it is not insane to choose to stay with Moorman.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Now defend keeping the vet over the fresh meat. THAT'S what you've been doing, and it's fundamentally INSANE. I haven't once defended this approach. I've simply stated what's going to happen. One mistake (botched snap, bad shank, blocked kick), and Powell is gone. It's a fact, whether you like it or not. With punters and kickers, NFL teams appear to go with the safe guy. That's how guys like Chris Mohr, Chris Gardocki, Jeff Feagles, etc. played 15+ years in the NFL.
The Big Cat Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 I personally think Moorman is quickly coming to the end of the road, but I'll jump in and play devil's advocate with what you pose. If Moorman and the rookie are performing at about the same level, we keep Moorman. He has proven over the years that he can perform under pressure and knows the weather and quirks of the Ralph. We also know how he works and handles gimself with the coaches, other players and the media. Until we see his competition perform better, in simlar conditions, why would we want the distraction of changing punters and the damage to our season if he can't handle it over the full season in some way? Punters are readily avilable. Is Powell going to be unavailable if we cut him? Is he really far better than another punter we could bring in next year to replace Moorman if needed? You might not agree, but it is not insane to choose to stay with Moorman. I don't agree with that logic, at all. Plus, we're talking about a punter. Not a quarterback. Also, we're talking about a relatively expensive punter. The reasons to cut Moorman FAR outweigh the reasons to keep him.
eball Posted May 22, 2012 Author Posted May 22, 2012 I haven't once defended this approach. I've simply stated what's going to happen. One mistake (botched snap, bad shank, blocked kick), and Powell is gone. It's a fact, whether you like it or not. With punters and kickers, NFL teams appear to go with the safe guy. That's how guys like Chris Mohr, Chris Gardocki, Jeff Feagles, etc. played 15+ years in the NFL. I've been thinking about this some more and you're right. I mean, we've all seen how Moorman has performed brilliantly under pressure, like in all of those playoff....err, never mind.
Mark Long Beach Posted May 23, 2012 Posted May 23, 2012 I haven't once defended this approach. I've simply stated what's going to happen. One mistake (botched snap, bad shank, blocked kick), and Powell is gone. It's a fact, whether you like it or not. With punters and kickers, NFL teams appear to go with the safe guy. That's how guys like Chris Mohr, Chris Gardocki, Jeff Feagles, etc. played 15+ years in the NFL. Yes coaches like safe guys. That's why Pierson Prioleau was dragged around everywhere Gregg Williams went. He was a safe player. But there's lots of room for Safeties, but room for only one punter. So it's a binary decision. Most punters aren't good enough to unseat a solid & safe guy (only 32 punters in the NFL). The stats for Moorman the last couple years show that he's somewhere around an above average punter. This is significantly worse than when he was a top 2 punter for much of his career. If Powell shows promise, and in fact if he's equal to what Moorman is now, we'd be foolish to keep Moorman. Powell will be given that chance since Moorman is clearly on the decline. Why give up a potentially above average punter at the beginning of his career to keep one who may only have a little left? Remember, an above average punter isn't easy to find. The reason Mohr, Gardocki & Feagles played so long is because they were good! But they got replaced eventually. Moorman will be too at some point. If Powell shows well, that point may be this year.
Southtown Tommy Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 If this competition is equal throughout training camp, I would prefer Moorman to Powell for what Moorman brings to the community. He is an asset and does TONS of great work to help out local families dealing with pediatric cancer. I have met Brian and he is one of the good great guys in the league.
JimBob2232 Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Just keep Moorman and use our 3rd round pick next year for a Punter. Worked for Jacksonville.
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