Toronto Series Extension

[dwight in philly]

I knew that stuff. I thought that maybe GB gave season ticket holders foot rubs during games, the way you were talking.

 

PTR

 

 

 

There is all kinds of proof. You just choose to ignore it. You don't even offer any evidence to support your argument.

 

As for Buffalo being a big as Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc. if you add Rochester, that's a game you can play with every market. (add Youngstown, Canton and Columbus to Cleveland and, poof, it's top 5!)

 

The point is Neilsen ratings are the bible of TV advertising and officially Buffalo is #51, 2nd smallest in the NFL. And we keep dropping as other markets grow.

 

PTR

if your premise is true, why doesnt wilson sell then? rid himself of this "small market".. it couldnt be that he is making money hand over fist could it?

[May Day 10]

I can live with the one game a year as long as Mr. Wilson is alive and that is what he wishes.

 

A new owner though, I hope that this ends. There are other ways to market up there. People up there love coming down here for games and shopping. Many make a whole weekend out of it.

 

The media up there doesnt seem to be very respectful of Buffalo and to the Bills. That kind of drives me nuts.

[PromoTheRobot]

if your premise is true, why doesnt wilson sell then? rid himself of this "small market".. it couldnt be that he is making money hand over fist could it?

You assume Wilson is just in it for the money. If that were true the Bills would have been sold or moved decades ago. I know its impossible to wrap your mind around the concept but the Toronto series is meant to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

 

It's a good thing miserable, whiny fans are the minority. Look at how some fans turned on Terry Pegula. There's a guy who is a dream owner by any measure and yet some Sabre fans rail against him because the team underperfomed. Even when the guy gives the city a half-million dollars for landscaping around the FNC, people still make asinine comments in the Buffalo News. Some people are such pissy, whiny children.

 

PTR

Edited May 24, 2012 by PromoTheRobot

[Ramius]

The toronto series has little to do with the average fan. The team, and the NFL as a whole don't care about the average fan. Their main goal is to get the big businesses to buy suites and luxury boxes. There's very little of that coming from Buffalo, hence the need to try to draw in the toronto dollars.

[dwight in philly]

You assume Wilson is just in it for the money. If that were true the Bills would have been sold or moved decades ago. I know its impossible to wrap your mind around the concept but the Toronto series is meant to keep the Bills in Buffalo.

 

It's a good thing miserable, whiny fans are the minority. Look at how some fans turned on Terry Pegula. There's a guy who is a dream owner by any measure and yet some Sabre fans rail against him because the team underperfomed. Even when the guy gives the city a half-million dollars for landscaping around the FNC, people still make asinine comments in the Buffalo News. Some people are such pissy, whiny children.

 

PTR

he did not sell though did he?? and keep your comments confined to the subject . "miserable", "whiny fans", hardly!

[Mr. WEO]

I knew that stuff. I thought that maybe GB gave season ticket holders foot rubs during games, the way you were talking.

 

PTR

 

 

 

No, just provide them with what any fan wants--a consistently competitive, relevant team. Guess that doens't count with you.

 

What was your point again, other to disparage Bills fans?

[PromoTheRobot]

No, just provide them with what any fan wants--a consistently competitive, relevant team. Guess that doens't count with you.

 

What was your point again, other to disparage Bills fans?

I disparage those that earn it.

 

As for the Pack being consistant winners, they have done very well since 1993. Of course between 1968 and 1992 the Green Bay only made the playoffs twice. So I guess they didn't care about the fans those years. If they did they would have won more, by your logic. Everyone knows winning is just a matter of how much you care.

 

Ironically, circling back to my original point, Packer fans still sold out Lambeau Field even when they were bad, even in the cold.

 

PTR

Edited May 24, 2012 by PromoTheRobot

[K-9]

I disparage those that earn it.

 

As for the Pack being consistant winners, they have done very well since 1993. Of course between 1968 and 1992 the Green Bay only made the playoffs twice. SoI guess they didn't care about the fans those years. If they did they would have won more, by your logic. Everyone knows winning is just a matter of how much you care.

 

PTR

 

24 years with no playoffs?

 

Thank God the Jones', Snyders, and Krafts of the league came along to save the NFL and make it the league it is today. That's why GB's 24 year playoff drought doesn't count. It didn't happen when the NFL was REALLY the NFL like it is today.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PromoTheRobot]

24 years with no playoffs?

 

Thank God the Jones', Snyders, and Krafts of the league came along to save the NFL and make it the league it is today. That's why GB's 24 year playoff drought doesn't count. It didn't happen when the NFL was REALLY the NFL like it is today.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Not a 24 year drought. They made it twice in 24 years. They missed 9 years, then after 1982 they went 10 years with no playoffs. The Packers did go 15 years without making the playoffs from '45 to '59.

 

PTR

Edited May 24, 2012 by PromoTheRobot

[K-9]

Not a 24 year drought. They made it twice in 24 years. They missed 9 years, then after 1982 they went 10 years with no playoffs. The Packers did go 15 years without making the playoffs from '45 to '59.

 

PTR

 

Yeah, I saw that I misread your post. Still, GB's futility in those years doesn't count. Nor does the Steelers' long bout with ineptitude under Art Rooney (according to Wiki, they went 25 years without a playoff appearance after 1947). That all occurred when the NFL really wasn't the NFL. The NFL didn't really become the NFL until Robert Kraft became an owner. He saved the league all by himself.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PromoTheRobot]

Yeah, I saw that I misread your post. Still, GB's futility in those years doesn't count. Nor does the Steelers' long bout with ineptitude under Art Rooney (according to Wiki, they went 25 years without a playoff appearance after 1947). That all occurred when the NFL really wasn't the NFL. The NFL didn't really become the NFL until Robert Kraft became an owner. He saved the league all by himself.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I hear that when Kraft farts it smells of lilacs.

 

PTR

[K-9]

Robert Kraft makes the Most Interesting Man in the World sit with the general populous at home games.

And he thinks Dos Equis sucks.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Lurker]

if your premise is true, why doesnt wilson sell then? rid himself of this "small market".. it couldnt be that he is making money hand over fist could it?

The Bills were 9th in operating income in 2011--Ralph's making plenty of money because of his lack of debt service.

 

I disparage those that earn it.

Better to use the 'manage ignored users' feature, roboman...

[BillnutinHouston]

The Bills were 9th in operating income in 2011--Ralph's making plenty of money because of his lack of debt service.

 

Attention "New Stadium for Buffalo" crowd: study this ^^ very carefully and please rethink your position.

[BillnutinHouston]

There is no evidence or proof that Western NY cannot support the team financially, you have bought into the smoke and mirror job force fed to you by Russ Brandon. If you read my points about NFL profit sharing, this team could be profitable anywhere, but I am all ears if someone could explain it to me in a way that makes this abomination make any sense. If you just quit fooling yourself into thinking this is supposed to help the Bills stay in Buffalo for one second, you'd clearly see this whole Bills in Toronto joke is a primer to get THAT city ready for a team. It's not the Buffalo Bills/Toronto Series, it's the Bills/Toronto series for a reason.

 

I'm sure there are tons of people who will ignore the facts and disagree with me, but thats really what this is all about.

 

I'll take a shot at trying to help you understand.

 

It's true that under the revenue sharing framework that Ralph imposed on his colleagues, and with the modestly-upgraded stadium that Ralph has been content to play in that results in no debt service for the team, the franchise CAN make money in Buffalo. And if an Act of Congress was passed to make moving the team illegal, the status quo would be sufficient to allow Bills fans to confidently look to the future under a new owner.

 

But alas, no such Act of Congress is coming. So when "highest bidder" time comes, that bidder could be a Pegula, or (gasp) it could be the next Jerry Jones. I hope you are feeling lucky, because by adamantly clinging to the status quo you are essentially content to roll the dice on a Pegula winning the auction. On the other hand, I'm convinced that it's wise to strengthen the market to actually compel the next Jerry Jones to give Buffalo a second look because it can offer him a competitive advantage (not just be "OK") when compared to his other options.

 

I have to believe that the vast majority of the anti-Toronto crowd doesn't get outside the bubble of WNY enough to fully appreciate just how comparatively small Buffalo really is. For those folks, I urge you to review data like this and consider it within the competitive context of the NFL. The next owner (I think it's more accurate to use the term "investor") will make decisions based on the future, not on the present and certainly not on the past. That's why I applaud Ralph's efforts to start mining the Toronto market. It's not so much about how those efforts pay off today, but rather about the future growth possibilities it demonstrates. Demonstrating this market growth potential will be critical to the next owner's decisionmaking.

 

For an owner with a 50-year history in Buffalo, current economic conditions in Buffalo are "OK", but unfortunately, the next owner will set the bar much higher so hunkering down is simply not a good option if you want to try and control your own destiny moving forward.

Edited May 26, 2012 by BillnutinHouston

[Mr. WEO]

I disparage those that earn it.

 

As for the Pack being consistant winners, they have done very well since 1993. Of course between 1968 and 1992 the Green Bay only made the playoffs twice. So I guess they didn't care about the fans those years. If they did they would have won more, by your logic. Everyone knows winning is just a matter of how much you care.

 

Ironically, circling back to my original point, Packer fans still sold out Lambeau Field even when they were bad, even in the cold.

 

PTR

 

 

24 years with no playoffs?

 

Thank God the Jones', Snyders, and Krafts of the league came along to save the NFL and make it the league it is today. That's why GB's 24 year playoff drought doesn't count. It didn't happen when the NFL was REALLY the NFL like it is today.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I was going to credit you two with simply being disningenuous when you left out that that the Packers appeared in 6 championship games between 1960 and 1967 and won 5 of them. They dominated the league as it was just become popular in the era of live sports broadcast on TV---but the 24 years without a playoff "misread" leaves me to conclude you're just not that bright. But the history of winning championships is why a tiny town (with nothing else to do) has filled the seats in good times and bad. They have been rewarded with solid football for the past 2 decades.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Mr. WEO

[PromoTheRobot]

I was going to credit you two with simply being disningenuous when you left out that that the Packers appeared in 6 championship games between 1960 and 1967 and won 5 of them. They dominated the league as it was just become popular in the era of live sports broadcast on TV---but the 24 years without a playoff "misread" leaves me to conclude you're just not that bright. But the history of winning championships is why a tiny town (with nothing else to do) has filled the seats in good times and bad. They have been rewarded with solid football for the past 2 decades.

Isn't Bob Kraft due for his weekly tongue bath, WEO?

 

PTR

[K-9]

I was going to credit you two with simply being disningenuous when you left out that that the Packers appeared in 6 championship games between 1960 and 1967 and won 5 of them. They dominated the league as it was just become popular in the era of live sports broadcast on TV---but the 24 years without a playoff "misread" leaves me to conclude you're just not that bright. But the history of winning championships is why a tiny town (with nothing else to do) has filled the seats in good times and bad. They have been rewarded with solid football for the past 2 decades.

 

Aw, poor WEO. Gets his panties in a bunch and starts hurling the insults when someone has the temerity to bust Kraft's balls.

 

Too bad my larger point about the Packers was lost on you.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[apuszczalowski]

The Bills were 9th in operating income in 2011--Ralph's making plenty of money because of his lack of debt service.

Thats what happens when you hold onto a team for as long as Ralph has, after purchasing it for what a few season tickets in Dallas would go for.

 

Right now, with Ralph as the owner, sure he is making money because he has almost 0 debt owning the team. Unless the Bills can find someone with almost a Billion in cash that they have just laying around that they want to use to purchase an NFL team, the next owner of the team is going to have to go into debt in order to purchase the team. That debt is going to take away from the profits that the team curently makes and in order to make a profit, they will need to find additional ways to increase revenue. The point of this series is to try and attract more interest in the team in the largest market sitting next door to Buffalo and to show any potential new owner that the Buffalo area has ways of becoming a larger market to support the team

[JohnC]

Thats what happens when you hold onto a team for as long as Ralph has, after purchasing it for what a few season tickets in Dallas would go for.

 

Right now, with Ralph as the owner, sure he is making money because he has almost 0 debt owning the team. Unless the Bills can find someone with almost a Billion in cash that they have just laying around that they want to use to purchase an NFL team, the next owner of the team is going to have to go into debt in order to purchase the team. That debt is going to take away from the profits that the team curently makes and in order to make a profit, they will need to find additional ways to increase revenue. The point of this series is to try and attract more interest in the team in the largest market sitting next door to Buffalo and to show any potential new owner that the Buffalo area has ways of becoming a larger market to support the team

 

I'm not against exapnding the market. Far from it. The best way to do that is having a winning and entertaining team. Ralph Wilson squandered a tremendous marketing opportunity with his first Toronto series exposure when he presented a dud product. The Toronto media and public response to his dullard team was tepid at best. Instead of solidifying and incorporating the canadian market for the franchise he is now trying to salvage it.

 

The Bills have been bad for nearly a generation. It is an understatement to say that for a very long time the franchise was run in a very second rate manner. Now it seems that the people running the football operation know how to build a quality team. My point is simply that the best approach to expand and energize a market is to not lose sight that it is mostly about the quality of the product.

Edited May 28, 2012 by JohnC