Toronto Series Extension

[CodeMonkey]

I can't imagine how the management of this team continues to turn it's back on the city and state that has poured it's heart, soul, and money into it for over 50 years.

 

What a nauseating bit of news, not that it wasn't expected.

It's a business, nothing more and nothing less.

"Heart and soul" has meaning to fans only. It always comes down to money.

Edited May 23, 2012 by CodeMonkey

[VanCity]

It's a business, nothing more and nothing less.

"Heart and soul" has meaning to fans only. It always comes down to money.

 

If you have a team that signed a player to a $100million dollar contract and is spending to the salary cap in an effort to satisfy long suffering fans, bringing in added revenue just became that much more essential. If heart and soul paid contracts, this team would be amongst the richest, if not the richest, in the league.

 

As a fan, I hate the Toronto series. I worked at that stadium (Sky Dome/Rogers Centre) in the early 90's during the Blue Jays back-to-back World Series years. It's a big, cold, tomb of a venue that has horrible acoustics. It has no tailgating (truly an essential part of NFL football) because of the drinking laws. Toronto is a great city, but it is no NFL city.

 

All that being said, it all comes down to the money that it makes and the long-term sustainability of the franchise in Buffalo. If the price of having the team remain as the Buffalo Bills is having one game a year in Toronto, then so be it. And at least the fans in WNY don't have far to go to watch the team. A lot better than the oft-talked about move to LA.

[PromoTheRobot]

That's a good take on the situation.

 

I wonder what % of those opposed to the Toronto game live in WNY. My guess is a high percentage and I might feel the same if I still lived in the area. WNY has been battered and bruised, you can't blame folks if they have a bunker mentality.

A bunker mentality and delusions of grandeur. We act like we support the Bills like Green Bay supports the Packers. Buffalo Bills fans have been solid but hardly exceptional. Sorry, but 40,000+ unsold seats last December says so.

 

PTR

[CardinalScotts]

The Packers played games in Milwaukee for 61 years...

 

good point, I'd rather we do this then get the London game or Berlin or Mexico City or who knows. I hate it but as the NFL grows let the other teams travel across the world we'll just hop up to Toronto once a year- win the game and move on. They should let the Bills pick the opponent however (not sure who makes the selection now)

[Buftex]

Love it or hate it (I'm ok with it as long as no AFCE games are played there), the series HAS helped to regionalize (and thus make more financially viable) the franchise. I don't recall where I read it, but the Southern Ontario fan base has overtaken the Rochester fan base in season ticket support.

 

And don't forget, the Bills have SUCKED during the first years of the series. If we see a playoff-caliber team up there at the end of the year, I'm anxious to see how the composition (and excitement level) of the crowd changes.

 

 

Forgive me if this has been pointed out, I read through the first 5 pages of this thread:

 

Like everyone, it seems, I have learned to accept the Toronto series as a "necessary evil" to an extent. But one thing that troubles me about it, still, is that there don't seem to be any stipulations on who the Bills can/will play in Toronto. So far, they have played Miami, NY Jets, Bears, Redskins, and now, the Seahawks in regular season games in Toronto.

 

The Miami and NY Jet games kind of pissed me off...now, if the Bills had been better those years, perhaps, the sentiments of the crowd would have been more tilted toward the Bills. I have not been to any of the games in Toronto, but, particularly those first two games, I recall people saying that it wasn't a particularly strong Bills crowd, and the fan reaction was non-existent. That does take an advantage from the Bills, how ever slight that might be.

 

Also, there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to when the games are scheduled for the Toronto sereis. This year, they play the Seahawks in mid-December, while last year they played the Redskins in mid October. Maybe avoiding having a half-full stadium in mid-December against the Seahawks is a good thing, but if the Bills are winning, and the fan base is still enthused that late in the season, I could see going to Toronto as a bit of a momentum buster. Of course, until the Bills start winning more games than they lose, that point is moot.

[Lv-Bills]

A bunker mentality and delusions of grandeur. We act like we support the Bills like Green Bay supports the Packers. Buffalo Bills fans have been solid but hardly exceptional. Sorry, but 40,000+ unsold seats last December says so.

 

PTR

#1 - This franchise has largely been garbage for more than a decade. Not just garbage, but largely clueless, without a sniff of playoffs, except for one year, and even then, had to make a late run against a bunch of high school teams to get there. That takes a toll. With any kind of hope whatsoever, and we would be in the 50's for season tickets.

 

#2 - 40,000 plus seats unsold? Not really possible seeing that we had about 38,000 season tickets sold and capacity is between 72-73 if I'm not mistaken. I get your point, but no need to exaggerate, unless you were talking about 40,000 total for the month of December. In which case, again, losing team, on yet another long losing streak, at the end of the year where games again don't mean squat.

 

When this franchise gets it ish together, which it is starting to do, season tickets will creep back up into the 50's and probably stay there for quite some time, if the franchise can provide any kind of stability of hope from time to time.

 

The NFL is wildly more popular than it even was 10 years ago. The Bills will sell tickets easily, and during any month, if they show they have a clue.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Lv-Bills

[PromoTheRobot]

 

#2 - 40,000 plus seats unsold? Not really possible seeing that we had about 38,000 season tickets sold and capacity is between 72-73 if I'm not mistaken. I get your point, but no need to exaggerate, unless you were talking about 40,000 total for the month of December.

I was talking 40K total for 3 games in Dec. Like I said Bills fans have been solid. We sell out more games than we don't. But we aren't at Green Bay's level where they have a 30K wait list for season tickets and every game, no matter how good or bad the team is, is sold out before the season starts.

 

PTR

Edited May 23, 2012 by PromoTheRobot

[Lv-Bills]

I was talking 40K total for 3 games in Dec. Like I said Bills fans have been solid. We sell out more games than we don't. But we aren't at Green Bay's level where they have a 30K wait list for season tickets and every game, no matter how good or bad the team is, is sold out before the season starts.

 

PTR

No doubt, but we also aren't at Green Bay's level in terms of being able to like their team. It hasn't exactly been too hard to be a Packer fan. They have been run well. They have championships sprinkled in over multiple generations. They have been stable at QB, almost unrealistically, over a large period of their relevant existence.

 

Same with Steeler fans. It's not exactly hard to be a Steeler fan. They win all of the time. Period. If you plop down Ralph Wilson and his bumbling history in a ton of NFL cities, and you would have a franchise that draws next to no one.

 

Buffalo has been very loyal to a franchise that has been largely subpar and horrible during most of it's time in the city. Buffalo fans are terrific.

[BillnutinHouston]

I wonder what % of those opposed to the Toronto game live in WNY. My guess is a high percentage and I might feel the same if I still lived in the area. WNY has been battered and bruised, you can't blame folks if they have a bunker mentality.

 

Agreed, I'm convinced you're onto something there. Being a Buffalo expatriate and returning occasionally (luckily for me it's for Bills games!) continually reminds me just how comparatively small the WNY market is. I think many of the locals are too close to the situation to fully appreciate this, and more to the point, what the Bills' have to compete with in terms of economic power in other NFL markets.

 

In a similar thread yesterday, another poster mentioned how Phoenix has had 61 straight sellouts in the midst of many losing years, making the point that size matters when it comes to the market. To quantify the disparity between Phoenix and Buffalo, I googled "buying power index" and found that as of a few years ago, Phoenix was ranked 14th in the US in the number of households with purchasing power in excess of $150K, whereas Buffalo was ranked 67th.

 

I completely understand why the Bills are doing this. I may not like it, but I understand it and accept it as a condition of being in the elite circle of communities with an NFL team.

Edited May 23, 2012 by BillnutinHouston

[Mr. WEO]

A bunker mentality and delusions of grandeur. We act like we support the Bills like Green Bay supports the Packers. Buffalo Bills fans have been solid but hardly exceptional. Sorry, but 40,000+ unsold seats last December says so.

 

PTR

You act like the ownership and FO of the Bills supports its fans like that of Green Bay does its fans. You think their fans just love football more than Bills fans? That's all that separates the fortunes of the 2 teams?

[dwight in philly]

You act like the ownership and FO of the Bills supports its fans like that of Green Bay does its fans. You think their fans just love football more than Bills fans? That's all that separates the fortunes of the 2 teams?

i wonder if we had community ownership like green bay does, we would farm a game out to toronto? please.. if we had an owner remotely resembling one that wants to win, the toronto series would be a non-entity, nothing worth talking about..

Edited May 23, 2012 by dwight in philly

[eball]

i wonder if we had community ownership like green bay does, we would farm a game out to toronto? please.. if we had an owner remotely resembling one that wants to win, the toronto series would be a non-entity, nothing worth talking about..

Seriously? This crap gets really old. Grow up.

[PromoTheRobot]

You act like the ownership and FO of the Bills supports its fans like that of Green Bay does its fans. You think their fans just love football more than Bills fans? That's all that separates the fortunes of the 2 teams?

Maybe you can tell us what exactly Green Bay does that Buffalo doesn't, aside what happens inside their community ownership structure that is unique to their situation. I'm really curious.

 

i wonder if we had community ownership like green bay does, we would farm a game out to toronto? please.. if we had an owner remotely resembling one that wants to win, the toronto series would be a non-entity, nothing worth talking about..

Did you miss this off-season? Have you been in a coma?

 

PTR

Edited May 23, 2012 by PromoTheRobot

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Bills should model thier plan after the Rooneys in Pittsburgh.Small city. New stadium. Not sharing their home games with anybody. Economy same as Buffalo. Former steel town.Go Figure.

[PromoTheRobot]

Bills should model thier plan after the Rooneys in Pittsburgh.Small city. New stadium. Not sharing their home games with anybody. Economy same as Buffalo. Former steel town.Go Figure.

Pittsburgh and Buffalo are nowhere near each other economically. For one thing it's double Buffalo's population. Another is Pittsburgh ranks #23 in TV market. Buffalo is #51. We are the smallest TV market outside of Green Bay, smaller than Jacksonville.

 

Do you know where Buffalo would rank if you add Toronto's metro population? In the Top 5!!

 

PTR

Edited May 24, 2012 by PromoTheRobot

[dwight in philly]

Seriously? This crap gets really old. Grow up.

grow up?? seriously? your posts get old!

 

Maybe you can tell us what exactly Green Bay does that Buffalo doesn't, aside what happens inside their community ownership structure that is unique to their situation. I'm really curious.

 

 

Did you miss this off-season? Have you been in a coma?

 

PTR

no, actually i am quite aware of the off-season, i was referring to community ownership and wilson's overall track record of bleeding every cent he can out of the area. missing the playoffs the past 12 years and basically having a team that is irrelevant, probably forced the bean counters to get off their collective a$$es, as they periodically have done the past 50 years when they bottom out.

[Shoutbox]

Pittsburgh and Buffalo are nowhere near each other economically. For one thing it's double Buffalo's population. Another is Pittsburgh ranks #23 in TV market. Buffalo is #51. We are the smallest TV market outside of Green Bay, smaller than Jacksonville.

 

Do you know where Buffalo would rank if you add Toronto's metro population? In the Top 5!!

 

PTR

 

In terms of population size, it's worth pointing out that Buffalo is about the same size as the Pittsburgh/Cleveland/Cincinnati markets when you include Rochester. Maybe WNY is worse off economically compared to these Rust Belt cities, but the difference can't be that great.

 

Nevertheless, I understand the economic reasons why we are continuing this Toronto series. And I approve of it, so long as:

 

1. We don't play our division rivals in these games.

 

2. We limit the series to the December games that often struggle to sell out due to weather and (lately) poor record.

 

3. Toronto fans start cheering for the Bills and make this series an actual home field advantage.

 

4. We keep it at no more than 1 regular season game a year.

 

Being a Sabres fan as well as a Bills fan, I've grown accustomed to seeing Toronto as "the enemy." But oh well. It's just something I will have to get used to over time.

[Mr. WEO]

Maybe you can tell us what exactly Green Bay does that Buffalo doesn't, aside what happens inside their community ownership structure that is unique to their situation. I'm really curious.

 

 

 

PTR

Really? You're not sure about this?

 

14 playoff appearances in the past 20 years. 3 SB apperances and 2 SB wins.

 

You don't really seem like the curious type.

[Homey D. Clown]

If you have a team that signed a player to a $100million dollar contract and is spending to the salary cap in an effort to satisfy long suffering fans, bringing in added revenue just became that much more essential. If heart and soul paid contracts, this team would be amongst the richest, if not the richest, in the league.

 

As a fan, I hate the Toronto series. I worked at that stadium (Sky Dome/Rogers Centre) in the early 90's during the Blue Jays back-to-back World Series years. It's a big, cold, tomb of a venue that has horrible acoustics. It has no tailgating (truly an essential part of NFL football) because of the drinking laws. Toronto is a great city, but it is no NFL city.

 

All that being said, it all comes down to the money that it makes and the long-term sustainability of the franchise in Buffalo. If the price of having the team remain as the Buffalo Bills is having one game a year in Toronto, then so be it. And at least the fans in WNY don't have far to go to watch the team. A lot better than the oft-talked about move to LA.

 

 

There is no evidence or proof that Western NY cannot support the team financially, you have bought into the smoke and mirror job force fed to you by Russ Brandon. If you read my points about NFL profit sharing, this team could be profitable anywhere, but I am all ears if someone could explain it to me in a way that makes this abomination make any sense. If you just quit fooling yourself into thinking this is supposed to help the Bills stay in Buffalo for one second, you'd clearly see this whole Bills in Toronto joke is a primer to get THAT city ready for a team. It's not the Buffalo Bills/Toronto Series, it's the Bills/Toronto series for a reason.

 

I'm sure there are tons of people who will ignore the facts and disagree with me, but thats really what this is all about.

[PromoTheRobot]

Really? You're not sure about this?

 

14 playoff appearances in the past 20 years. 3 SB apperances and 2 SB wins.

 

You don't really seem like the curious type.

I knew that stuff. I thought that maybe GB gave season ticket holders foot rubs during games, the way you were talking.

 

PTR

 

There is no evidence or proof that Western NY cannot support the team financially, you have bought into the smoke and mirror job force fed to you by Russ Brandon. If you read my points about NFL profit sharing, this team could be profitable anywhere, but I am all ears if someone could explain it to me in a way that makes this abomination make any sense. If you just quit fooling yourself into thinking this is supposed to help the Bills stay in Buffalo for one second, you'd clearly see this whole Bills in Toronto joke is a primer to get THAT city ready for a team. It's not the Buffalo Bills/Toronto Series, it's the Bills/Toronto series for a reason.

 

I'm sure there are tons of people who will ignore the facts and disagree with me, but thats really what this is all about.

 

There is all kinds of proof. You just choose to ignore it. You don't even offer any evidence to support your argument.

 

As for Buffalo being a big as Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc. if you add Rochester, that's a game you can play with every market. (add Youngstown, Canton and Columbus to Cleveland and, poof, it's top 5!)

 

The point is Neilsen ratings are the bible of TV advertising and officially Buffalo is #51, 2nd smallest in the NFL. And we keep dropping as other markets grow.

 

PTR