Toronto Series Extension

[Doc]

Let me refresh your selective memory: The wildly successful 90s were the handiwork of Bill Polian the GM he fired. That was the worst of his many bad decisions he has ever made. I prefer not going into the details of that fiasco because I'm very aware that some fault can be directed to all the participants involved.

 

The GM he hired from the Steelers was Ton Donahoe. It didn't take too much research to know what type of person he was because he was basically fired by the Steelers for being an arrogant and nasty control freak who couldn't work with others. When he conducted himself in the same imperious way in Buffalo (even towards the owner) he was let go when his contraxt expired. The person who made the hire was Ralph. When you hire a man with intolerable flaws you get a man with intolerable flaws. It is not surprising that Donahoe hasn't been hired to work in a front office job with another team. He does do some freelancing consulting.

 

You can make all the lame excuses you want for the irrascible owner. The bottom line in a bottom line business is that for more than a half-century of ownership his team's winning record is less that 50%. I say to you what I have always said to you: Excuses are for losers. You are what your record is.

 

If the Bills are on a path to success, as I do believe, it will be due to the owner's lack of involvement in the operation.

Polian had a hand in the success. But he didn't draft Kelly, Bruce, Andre, or Reich, who were cornerstone players. And it's not like he was going to remain GM forever. There are only so many SB's you can lose in a row and only so many times you can blow up at your boss. Look at his time in Indy. The Colts were wildly successful for 12 of his 14 years there, and after just 1 bad year, he's gone. But the Bills still had success after he was gone for a few years under Butler.

 

As for Donahoe, who cares if he was all those things? The fact is the move was widely hailed. I don't recall you doing "much research" at the time. They even traded for a "franchise QB." But that's the great thing about hindsight. I've already acknowledged that the Jauron/Brandon stuff was a mistake.

 

But again as I'll continue to say, the main problem with the team is the lack of a good QB, in what has become a QB-driven league. So far the Bills haven't lucked into one. Hopefully Fitz can become one and/or they do luck into one.

[Mr. WEO]

We'll just have to disagree on what dynamics have come into play over the last 20 years that led to the exponential increase in broadcast fees. I'll just say that it has FAR more to do with what I've highlighted above along with other competing media outlets than anything any of the big market teams have accomplished (it's interesting that two of the teams you sight are considered small markets).

 

It ain't about nostalgia at all. If Kraft had been around when RW was being instrumental in establishing the NFL as a television powerhouse in the first place, perhaps I'd give him a bit more credit. He and his ilk inherited the golden goose. RW and his peers bred the golden goose in the first place.

 

The last thing I'll say on the subject. and this isn't necessarily directed towards you alone, is that it is quite possible to extol the virtues of Robert Kraft as an owner without denigrating those of another.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I'm glad you noticed the bolded part, because that was my point. It has nothing to do with market size, but the size of the national following of any given team. Those teams have been the most successful and or popular nationally over the past 2 decades. This is what drives viewership and therefore ad rates and therfore the value of network contracts.

 

Yes, we have all (myself included) agreed that Ralph played a significant role in creating the NFL over 40 years ago. If he was no longer the owner of the team, we would all have composed ballads about his legendary status for the past 2 generations. But you simply cannot argue that his ownership and his team have contribluted to the past 2 massive TV contracts. When describing the success of airlines like Southwest and Jet Blue, no one feels compelled to deflect the kudos to the Wright brothers.

 

I'm comparing the ownership of 2 teams over the past 2 years.

[Joe W]

I thought this topic was about the Toronto series but if you're bringing up the worst GM's in Bills history, Brandon is hands-down the worst ! And Wilson decided to promote him to CEO, talk about Peter principle !

[PromoTheRobot]

I thought this topic was about the Toronto series but if you're bringing up the worst GM's in Bills history, Brandon is hands-down the worst ! And Wilson decided to promote him to CEO, talk about Peter principle !

If you mean GM as player personnel director, Brandon never filled that role. He has always been the marketing guy and I think he's done very well in that role. Most of the player decisions made under Brandon were done by Modrak and Jauron.

 

PTR

[eball]

If you mean GM as player personnel director, Brandon never filled that role. He has always been the marketing guy and I think he's done very well in that role. Most of the player decisions made under Brandon were done by Modrak and Jauron.

 

PTR

That's right; I think Brandon would be the first person to tell you he isn't a personnel guy.

[Joe W]

So during his tenure as GM he basically just sat there with his thumb up his ... if he knew he wasn't a GM he should heve resigned the title. How he got this reputation as a marketing wizard is beyond me, season tickets have declined by a third over the past three years and the Toronto series is a travesty.

[Mr. WEO]

You realize what "scarcity" means, right? Before Fox and other cable stations, there was NO scarcity since it was the NFC, AFC, and MNF packages spread-out among the only 3 major networks. When Fox entered, then TBS, etc., it created a scarcity for those 3 packages. The league sold itself once the salary cap was instituted and every city thought they had a chance to win it all, and the NFL owners realized this and played the networks against each other. And Ralph was "sentient" when Kraft was soiling his diapers, doing the dirty work to create the league we know today and which Kraft much later joined. He even saved Kraft's franchise.

 

As for the G-3, the loans are paid out of the visiting team's share of club seat and luxury box revenue. So basically any team who didn't partake of the G-3 loan (like Ralph) funded a stadium from which the owner got millions more in local revenue. So not only did he lose money, it also increased the salary cap. A double-whammy, if you will. And a new stadium would have meant raising prices to levels that most Buffalonians couldn't afford. So instead he demanded money to improve the existing stadium that was owned by the county and this allowed him to keep prices among the lowest in the league. But Kraft was smart to make that deal with Hartford, while what Ralph's doing with Toronto is horrible. Pure comedy.

 

I'd say the season ticket holders have a right to be pissed. But the "sentient" ones realize it's a small price to pay to keep the team viable.

 

Carroll took a team that was still young, had talent, and had just gone to the SB, and was driving it into the ground. Hence the reason he was fired. And yes, when Kraft used hired Belichick, he was laughed-at because of Belichick's failure in Cleveland. Luckily he found Brady (and started videotaping). But it still doesn't erase the fact that Parcells and Bledsoe resurrected that franchise (hence the reason why Gillette is called "the house that Bledsoe built") and they lucked-into finding Brady.

 

Scarcity? All of the major networks found a piece of the pie. And the NFL even produced a new pie for direct TV to satisfy the demand of a new provider.

 

Kraft used Hartford as leverage to get the Mass. to kick in for infrastrcture changes. Then he built his stadium ("The House that Bledsoe Built" is a riot, doc. Find anyone in your neighborhood who calls it that). And he has added significantly to it since, and created an entertainment center. Ralph isn't asking the state to kick in some money to help him build or even renovate a stadium. He's just asking for more money.

 

The G3 gets paid back by the borrower whether he sells those boxes or not. He's on the hook for that money. Nothing is preventing Ralph from partaking in this "free money", so why doesn't he do it? Wouldn't it be the best solution for everybody? The simple answer is that he knows if he doesn't sell the luxury boxes to generate the payback, he has to pay the balance of the loan. And the G3 loan comes out of a fund of about 3% of the entire revenue of the league, to which the Bills contribute a bottom third of the league amount.

 

 

Kraft was intersted in BB before he and Parcells left for the Jets. He didn't trust Parcells so he said he wasn't sure if he could trust BB. He needed a HC and picked Carrol. So that means he made exactly one mediocre HC selection in his tenure as owner (compare with Ralph over the same period). Kraft made his move on the guy he wanted (BB) as soon as it was clear that Parcells was bolting on the Jets. As for "lucking into Brady", why did Kraft and BB trade the highest paid player in the NFL at the height of his career?? The answer is obvious--they thought Brady might be even better. That was a huge gamble even you would have to admit. He could have logically kept Bledsoe and traded Brady for high picks, like Cassell. But he didn't. That's not luck.

 

You (now) act like Brady came off the bench and threw for 5000 yards and 50 TDs. And they "lucked into" a guy who you have repeatedly said at least "half a dozen QBs" could have done as well or better than in NE. Which is it doc? They "lucked into" a HOF QB, or he's no better than a half dozen other guys.

[JohnC]

As for Donahoe, who cares if he was all those things? The fact is the move was widely hailed. I don't recall you doing "much research" at the time.

 

Ralph Wilson is the owner of a company that was worth at that time in the range of half a billion dollars. One would expect someone in position to hire the head of the complex and expansive football operation to be a tad more thorough than your typical fan. After letting the insufferable Donahoe go he then hired the congenial Marvin Levy to head the football operation. Needless to say that very weird hiring didn't work out too well.

 

My basic point in these multiple postings is that the caliber of ownership has a lot to do with the success/failure of a franchise. Ralph Wilson and Robert Kraft are good examples of that notion. You have a different view: You believe in luck.

Edited May 16, 2012 by JohnC

[Toshiero]

I will never see this as anything but a black eye to this once proud franchise, it is a collossal embarrassment to Bills fans and the city of Buffalo, and handicaps the franchise to have to play 9 away games a year. You want to grow your fan base in toronto? How about some travel packages and selling some luxury suites to Toronto based businesses?

 

I really hope the next owner of this team scraps this abomination of an idea, if you want to move the team just do it already, don't lie to die hard fans telling them it's to increase fan base, I'd say we're all smarter than that.

 

I hate it, but it keeps the Bills in Buffalo so...

[K-9]

So, the entire point of a thread regarding the extension of the Toronto series is that Robert Kraft is a great owner and Ralph Wilson sucks.

 

Again.

 

Thanks for all that clarification.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Lurker]

So during his tenure as GM he basically just sat there with his thumb up his ... if he knew he wasn't a GM he should heve resigned the title. How he got this reputation as a marketing wizard is beyond me, season tickets have declined by a third over the past three years and the Toronto series is a travesty.

And another one bites the dust...

[Mr. WEO]

So, the entire point of a thread regarding the extension of the Toronto series is that Robert Kraft is a great owner and Ralph Wilson sucks.

 

Again.

 

Thanks for all that clarification.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Something just flew over your head.

[K-9]

Something just flew over your head.

 

Nope. I shot that motherfu*ker down.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Doc]

Scarcity? All of the major networks found a piece of the pie. And the NFL even produced a new pie for direct TV to satisfy the demand of a new provider.

 

Kraft used Hartford as leverage to get the Mass. to kick in for infrastrcture changes. Then he built his stadium ("The House that Bledsoe Built" is a riot, doc. Find anyone in your neighborhood who calls it that). And he has added significantly to it since, and created an entertainment center. Ralph isn't asking the state to kick in some money to help him build or even renovate a stadium. He's just asking for more money.

 

The G3 gets paid back by the borrower whether he sells those boxes or not. He's on the hook for that money. Nothing is preventing Ralph from partaking in this "free money", so why doesn't he do it? Wouldn't it be the best solution for everybody? The simple answer is that he knows if he doesn't sell the luxury boxes to generate the payback, he has to pay the balance of the loan. And the G3 loan comes out of a fund of about 3% of the entire revenue of the league, to which the Bills contribute a bottom third of the league amount.

 

 

Kraft was intersted in BB before he and Parcells left for the Jets. He didn't trust Parcells so he said he wasn't sure if he could trust BB. He needed a HC and picked Carrol. So that means he made exactly one mediocre HC selection in his tenure as owner (compare with Ralph over the same period). Kraft made his move on the guy he wanted (BB) as soon as it was clear that Parcells was bolting on the Jets. As for "lucking into Brady", why did Kraft and BB trade the highest paid player in the NFL at the height of his career?? The answer is obvious--they thought Brady might be even better. That was a huge gamble even you would have to admit. He could have logically kept Bledsoe and traded Brady for high picks, like Cassell. But he didn't. That's not luck.

 

You (now) act like Brady came off the bench and threw for 5000 yards and 50 TDs. And they "lucked into" a guy who you have repeatedly said at least "half a dozen QBs" could have done as well or better than in NE. Which is it doc? They "lucked into" a HOF QB, or he's no better than a half dozen other guys.

Huh? There was no scarcity for the NFL product because all 3 major networks had all 3 NFL packages. Until Fox decided they needed football to become a true 4th network. That left NBC out in the cold, and when time came to renew contracts, they came back like gangbusters to get back into the game, so to speak, and left CBS out in the cold. Then CBS came back into the game. Eventually the NFL expanded their packages to fill the demand. What do you figure Kraft did to spur all that? Was he the architect behind going to all the networks, or was he the guy just handling the details?

 

Yes, Ralph asked the county to pay for upgrades to its stadium. Kraft owns his stadium. Do you see the difference? The Bills didn't need a new stadium in 1998, and to build one now would cost $1B, which Ralph could never recoup through significantly higher prices, much less PSLs. In exchange, he's kept prices low. Why you harp on this is anyone's guess! I could see your point if he forced the county to cough up money and then jacked-up prices even to the middle of the pack.

 

There as no gamble with Brady once the team won the SB with him, given that Bledsoe hadn't won a SB and had just turned 30 when he was traded. Not to mention he had just suffered a life-threatening injury. Had they known what they had in Brady before that season, I'd have given them credit for it. But the events were pure luck. Again I hope the Bills can be as lucky to find a QB.

 

Brady's a good QB, but his first SB, yes, half a dozen QBs (more, even) could have won it with his 136 net passing yards and 1 TD pyrotechnics. Hell even in the 2nd SB, Jake Delhomme outplayed him. He did outplay McNabb, so there's that. But no SB wins since Spygate.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Doc

[May Day 10]

how does revenue sharing work with this?

 

Does Ralph just get to keep the $78 Million, and the ticket sales from Rogers gets split with the away team?

Edited May 17, 2012 by May Day 10

[Sisyphean Bills]

So during his tenure as GM he basically just sat there with his thumb up his ... if he knew he wasn't a GM he should heve resigned the title. How he got this reputation as a marketing wizard is beyond me, season tickets have declined by a third over the past three years and the Toronto series is a travesty.

I don't believe in the "here vs. not here" mock explanation either. Brandon was definitely at the combine, etc. and doing his bit with scouting players. The front office reorganization that happened when Buddy was hired as "GM of football" took place for reasons much like any other corporate functional restructuring -- the big boss realized he wasn't getting the production he needed in areas of his business and made changes.

[PromoTheRobot]

So during his tenure as GM he basically just sat there with his thumb up his ... if he knew he wasn't a GM he should heve resigned the title. How he got this reputation as a marketing wizard is beyond me, season tickets have declined by a third over the past three years and the Toronto series is a travesty.

He got it by increasing revenues, even in bad times. Nothing important, especially with keeping Buffalo in the NFL.

 

PTR

[hondo in seattle]

This is how Ralph knows he can, with relative impunity, whore out this team to an apathetic city. He knows that these games have nothing to do with the likelihood of the Bills "going to LA" after he's dead. But he's sure glad you guys believe it.

 

Mr. Weo, really? You think the fear of the Bills moving is just a myth?

 

Geez, NFL teams are valued at or near a billion dollars. Buffalo is something like the 44th biggest metro area in the US. Worse, we keep falling in the population and TV market rankings as other newer, more vibrant cities pass us by while moribund Buffalo hardly grows.

 

So what businessman would prefer to put a billion dollar investment in Buffalo rather than LA?

 

Ralph is not the one drumming up the fear of a move. It's simple economics.

 

I personally think regionalization is a great idea. As previously noted, small-market Green Bay did it with some success. If the Bills can persuade TO and Rochester to embrace the Bills, our chances of retaining a NFL team are much improved. Remember what happened to the Braves?

 

And. Weo, you seem to admire the Patriots organization. Do you remember they used to be called the "Boston Patriots." Even Boston, a much bigger city, had to regionalize their franchise to guarantee it's tenure in the city.

 

If I could dream, I would wish the Bills were sold to the people of Buffalo and WNY. Since that isn't likely, training camp near Rochester and a game in TO is a small price to pay to help secure our team in Buffalo.

[Homey D. Clown]

I hate it, but it keeps the Bills in Buffalo so...

 

 

Please explain how this series keeps the Bills in Buffalo. All teams have a stake in the network television contract, also receive a percentage or earnings from large market teams, along with all merchandise and licensing profits made by official NFL licensed products, which they split. that means ALL merchandise sold, not just Bills jerseys, but all jerseys, all hats, coffee mugs...etc sold on NFL licensed retailers is split among all teams. Luxury suite sales are a very small percentage of what makes up the profits of an NFL franchise, so that can be ruled out. Add to the income potential of stadium naming rights, which most teams partake in(you guessed it, Ralphie Poo doesn't), and stadium upgrades which Ralphie Poo pushes off to the state, and I'll ask again, How is this team not able to compete financially?

 

The answer you'd be looking for is they can and make more money than half of the league, but yes.... we need the Toronto series to "Be competitive"

 

People who think this team needs to play games in Toronto have been fooled by thinking it actually helps keep the Bills in Buffalo. It actually is doing the exact opposite, it's proving the NFL's viability in Toronto, and I don't care how you try to rationalize it, is just not good in any way.

 

Bills fans and the city of Buffalo are truly getting Jobbed on this deal, and the best part about it is people actually think it's helping. So if you think this is about revenue, and not grooming the team to move, try not to get too much sand up your nose.

 

LA, Toronto, Saskatchewan, I don't really care where they try to move the team, if they no longer play for the city of Buffalo, I could care less how far from WNY they move, the team will simply cease to exist for me.

[JohnC]

I don't believe in the "here vs. not here" mock explanation either. Brandon was definitely at the combine, etc. and doing his bit with scouting players. The front office reorganization that happened when Buddy was hired as "GM of football" took place for reasons much like any other corporate functional restructuring -- the big boss realized he wasn't getting the production he needed in areas of his business and made changes.

 

When the owner replaced the departed Levy with Brandon to head the football operation he created an organizational approach that simply doesn't work in the NFL, a decentralized organizational structure. Brandon was the head of an operation structured with separate offices. That decentralized management is useful in a wide ranging corporation but it doesn't make sense in a very focused NFL franchise system.

 

Modrak was the head of college scouting. Did anyone really believe that Brandon had the experience to challenge his opinions? Did anyone expect Brandon to have the necessary football knowledge to challenge or even engage at a reasonable level with the HC and his staff? Did Brandon have the ability to question the pro scouts when they talked about free agent prospects?

 

The owner hired a congenial but befuddled Levy to succeed Donahoe. That was very odd. The owner then hired the head of marketing with a superficial knowledge of the pro game to lead the football operation. That was even a more odd staffing selection. When an owner has a very limited comfort zone of hiring people he knows with a reluctance to go outside his very tight circle it is understandable why the franchise has struggled for so long.

 

As you very smartly noted the most important thing that Nix first did was rework and upgrade the organization. He got rid of a lot of non-productive people such as Modrak and brought in a lot of quality fresh eyses to the operation. That set the base for a competently functioning opertation.

Edited May 17, 2012 by JohnC