A specific question about squeezing more productivity from Young

[caracara]

I think this bolded phrase represents a big problem right there. How would one know most of the players would rather have Vince be the QB? Is he taking a poll? Lobbying the players for support? That's called "dividing the locker room" and it's cancer. If it's relying on media reports, then it's just foolishness to take them too seriously.

 

I wasn't there in Titans-ville - I don't want to defend or disparage VY there neither do I want to defend or disparage Fisher or Adams. It's over. Move on.

 

The Bills management have been very straightforward that Young is NOT the starter, Fitz is. It doesn't matter what the players want now, or what the players want halfway through the season. It doesn't matter if it's some players, many players, most players, all the players. The coach is running the team, not just in the NFL but EVERY SPORT, EVERYWHERE. And a guy who can't accept that and accept the role he's given deserves every word he's given - malcontent, crybaby, locker room cancer, etcetera.

 

I wish VY's character as "a leader who lifts up the players around him" had been more in evidence when he came off the bench in Philly.

 

Hopeful, I think you have good points. But VY isn't going to lobby or politic or subvert. He just has a winner's aura. He get's teammates believing.

I wish VY's character as "a leader who lifts up the players around him" had been more in evidence when he came off the bench in Philly.

 

another good question. He actually did come out with the eagles and beat the super bowl champ giants, but then melted down with multiple picks in the other games, playing catchup. But I agree. I wish he had showed better. He was backing up Vick. There was no wildcat in Philly. The situation was slightly different than here. but he should have done better. true.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Bud Adams the hated owner, moved the Oilers out of Houston, to Nashville. everybody has always hated Adams everyplace he's been. Even other owners hate Bud Adams.

VY is a legend in Houston, from the inside out. He is the definition of a hometown (Bigass City) hero. Then he wins an NC with UT. The Houston mayor led a campaign to convince the Texans to draft Vince.

For Bud Adams, acquiring Vince was a way of thumbing his nose at Houston. Understandably Fisher (a USC grad btw) didn't want anything to do with that. He didn't want Vince. Vince really couldn't have ended up in a worse situation.

 

I believe Fisher is or was a good football coach, but his ego drove him to orchestrate a very cold-blooded attack on a QB who was pushed down his throat by an idiot owner.. Vince was blindsided by it. He probably thought that he'd get the same kind of support a highly paid franchise top-5-pick QB usually gets, especially since he came out hard and won games with the Titans as a rookie.

 

so basically san jose bills fan is right on the money. but there is a little back-story.

 

Fisher is so egotistical he's orchestrating a "cold blooded attack" on his franchise QB, the very guy who could guarantee his success, and for absolutely no other reason than ego. Nothing about the QB's behavior, work ethic, ability to handle the playbook, on-field performance. Nope, that QB is just an "innocent victim of circumstance".

 

Riiiiiight. And I'm a bikini model. Get real. Fisher likely wanted the same thing we've seen from coaches here when high draft picks don't get playing time: some kind of development or skill acquisition that he just wasn't seeing from Vince (eg, Spiller not being able to protect his 1st seasons and not having the patience to let the hole develop; Maybin not developing as an all-around DE or LB instead of a situational pass rusher). Could it have been handled in a more constructive manner, probably.

 

Is the real story Bud Adams and Fisher are hated jerks and poor little VY got caught in the crossfire doubt anyone but VY believes that.

[caracara]

hopeful, I could start linking you evidence to support my case, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole y/you. If Vince does good, just please accept it and be happy. Don't hold a grudge because you were wrong. if all your doubts about VY are validated by his performance in Buffalo I will be the first to admit I was drowning in the vY koolaid and you tried to save me.

[#34fan]

IF Vince Young can get it together, and keep it that way, -I'm on board.

 

I'm all for giving a guy a clear line of sight. But it's up to him to make the most of the shot he's getting.

 

My advice to Chan is simple. -Let our QB's play decide who wins out. Don't hold anyone back because of politics, or some misguided promise you made to Fitz way back when. After 12 years of failure, the fans and the team deserve better. GO BILLS!

Edited May 14, 2012 by #34fan

[hondo in seattle]

Vince is a born leader

 

Huh?

 

Just because he played on some winning teams doesn't mean he was a born leader. Those teams won despite Young's lack of leadership ability - partly because of his athletic ability.

 

Regards him being a cancer, I doubt it. The worst scenario is that Fitz plays bad, gets hurt, Young comes in and plays well and then Fitz become the starter again after recovering. That scenario could potentially lead to a divided locker room and fan base. But it's an unlikely series of events. I suspect VY will be a good team player and faithfully play the role that Chan gives him.

[Cynical]

hopeful, I could start linking you evidence to support my case,

 

I think it would be in your interest to start posting the links to your evidence, because you seem to be the only person spouting some half assed conspiracy theory.

 

I do not recall Fisher having any problem starting Young back in 2006 and 2007, prior to Vince Youngs first meltdown.

 

Any problem Fisher had with Young seemed to develop after that.

[caracara]

I think it would be in your interest to start posting the links to your evidence, because you seem to be the only person spouting some half assed conspiracy theory.

 

I'm interested in the Bills winning, and I hope that this time next year you look back and say VY was a bargain and it was a shrewd free-agent pickup.

Not so much interested in butting heads on this message board with the doubters, or going through a long game of connect the dots.

 

right now, today, it looks like VY has a fresh start. I'm happy to let his conduct and play speak for itself.

[3rdand12]

If i may ask? I thought that Vince's role was clearly defined? To provide ample competition to the #2 position. not one not 3. two. Thigpen. If he can step in and play football, and i think he can we have an asset on the team.

I would be greatly surprised if he had any bull **** to throw. The one year deal is perfect for us and him because he might be a number one for someone next year when we bring Tanney up to two!

[Tcali]

as was mentioned earlier in the thread....VY almost single handedly won the national championship for tex with

very smart,athletic and instinctual plays.he also won a lot of games for tennessee. i dont doubt he has some maturity issues.

and i wouldnt be thrilled if we brought him in as THE starting QB. but the alternative is having absolutely no chance to do anything if Fitz goes down.it could be a lot of fun watching him this year.

[Cynical]

I'm interested in the Bills winning, and I hope that this time next year you look back and say VY was a bargain and it was a shrewd free-agent pickup.

Not so much interested in butting heads on this message board with the doubters, or going through a long game of connect the dots.

 

right now, today, it looks like VY has a fresh start. I'm happy to let his conduct and play speak for itself.

 

In short, evidence does not exist. Carry on.

[Cynical]

as was mentioned earlier in the thread....VY almost single handedly won the national championship for tex with

very smart,athletic and instinctual plays.he also won a lot of games for tennessee. i dont doubt he has some maturity issues.

 

Does this sound like a maturity issue?

 

"As Wyatt reports, a psychologist met with Young at his home on Monday afternoon, before he went missing later in the night, sparking a search from Nashville police."

 

mash here

[caracara]

In short, evidence does not exist. Carry on.

before we go on, what would constitute good evidence for you, cynical? I don't have surveillance tapes that catch Fisher planning a smear. so tell me what you would need to be even slightly persuaded that there is politics and cronyism in the nfl and that Vince has been caught in the middle of it.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think it would be in your interest to start posting the links to your evidence, because you seem to be the only person spouting some half assed conspiracy theory.

 

I do not recall Fisher having any problem starting Young back in 2006 and 2007, prior to Vince Youngs first meltdown.

 

Any problem Fisher had with Young seemed to develop after that.

 

In short, evidence does not exist. Carry on.

I know your comments are not directed at me specifically but I'm on the side that is more than willing to give Vince Young a bit of the benefit of the doubt.

 

It seems like your intent on fighting the fight that Young is not worth the trouble.

 

I've bowed out of a lot of debates here, not because I think I'm wrong, but because it's clearly a situation where it's pointless to debate the person you would be debating.

 

That person isn't gonna change their mind, concede a single point and even if you mopped the floor with that person, he would never concede a thing.

 

Why would someone enter a debate with a person who is ill-mannered and stuck in his own convictions?

 

Why waste the energy?

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

hopeful, I could start linking you evidence to support my case, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole y/you. If Vince does good, just please accept it and be happy. Don't hold a grudge because you were wrong. if all your doubts about VY are validated by his performance in Buffalo I will be the first to admit I was drowning in the vY koolaid and you tried to save me.

 

Wise choice, caracara, whoever you may be. That was the point in my earlier post. I find it incredible (in the sense of not credible, not believable) to lay all VY's problems on Fisher as a vendetta or egofest.

I'm not interested in hearing about what a sucky owner Bud Adams is or what an egomaniac Fisher is and how Fisher literally drove VY crazy.

It's pretty hard to drive someone crazy unless you're already on the road, with the car pointed in that direction. Affect their behavior and attitude, sure. Actually drive them crazy?

But I really don't care. It's over. It's done. Move on. Grudge doesn't even enter into the equation here. Why would I have a grudge? VY has always been some other team's hero or goat to me.

 

Do I believe that coaching and scheme can have a big impact on a QB's success? You betcha I do. I look at Alex Smith with the '9ers and Sam Bradford with the Rams for two recent examples.

 

The thing about VY is, unless stuff really goes south, we're really not going to have much chance to validate either viewpoint with VY's performance. He's the backup, or competing as the backup.

 

So if VY's "winner's aura" somehow mystamagically gets Fitz teammates believing in VY while Fitz is still the starter and nobody has seen whether Sunday brings out the VY who played last year in Philly or the VY who played in 2009, that's a problem. Because he was hired to compete for the backup position. He's not supposed to be wowing us.

 

If he's a great teammate and a solid citizen, backs up Fitz, knows his role, is 100% supportive as a backup, then comes in to play if Fitz goes down, will I wish him all success? 100% yes, with all my heart. BILLieve that goes for everyone here because disagreement or not, come Sunday we're all fans of the Bills here.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I know your comments are not directed at me specifically but I'm on the side that is more than willing to give Vince Young a bit of the benefit of the doubt.

 

It seems like your intent on fighting the fight that Young is not worth the trouble.

 

I've bowed out of a lot of debates here, not because I think I'm wrong, but because it's clearly a situation where it's pointless to debate the person you would be debating.

 

That person isn't gonna change their mind, concede a single point and even if you mopped the floor with that person, he would never concede a thing.

 

Why would someone enter a debate with a person who is ill-mannered and stuck in his own convictions?

 

Why waste the energy?

 

 

 

Oh, I like a good argument for the sake of it sometimes.

 

But not this one.

 

One of two things are true.

 

Either VY appreciates the chance to play another year in the NFL, bring home $2 million, and work with some good coaches and teammates, and he'll be a good citizen and accept his role and learn as much as ke can, support Fitz 100%. Then if Fitz goes down, he'll be well prepared and he'll go out and play "lights out".

 

Or, he's going to come in secretly expecting to be annointed starter before too long over that upstart 7th round Harvard pick who is clearly outmatched by Vick in sheer athletic talent, and he's going to forment discord either purposefully or because of his mystamagical leadership aura that damnit, he can't help himself, it just leaks out and gets guys believing in him. And all that leaking will distract him from learning, so that he won't be prepared and sharp and when he goes in, it'll be with his knickers down and his picks up.

 

In my opinion yakking about Fisher and Adams and whether VY was a headcase on his own or was driven to headcaseland in a chauffered limo by two egomanics is really beside the point. Everything said about Adams and Fisher could be 100% correct, but they aren't the ones who threw 9 INTs to 4 TDs for a 1-2 record in Philly last year.

 

They also aren't the ones who threw pads into the stands, stalked out of locker room and bailed on team meetings, etc etc. As I tell my kid "other people's behavior is their problem, your behavior is something you control"

[Cynical]

I know your comments are not directed at me specifically but I'm on the side that is more than willing to give Vince Young a bit of the benefit of the doubt.

 

It seems like your intent on fighting the fight that Young is not worth the trouble.

 

Vince Young is a Bill, whether I liked the signing or not. Was he worth the trouble? The answer will be revealed in time.

My issue with VY is he has shown, since joining the NFL, a history of dealing with stress and pressure pretty poorly.

 

Can he overcome this issue? Possibly. Again, time and circumstances will tell.

 

I just have a hard time with posters who describe Vince's problem as being a "maturity" issue, or that Chan can "fix" him.

 

Teams do not bring in a psychologist because the player is sitting in the corner "pouting".

 

Now, for the poster who's claiming Vince is just a victim of some grand conspiracy, come on, are you not even just a little bit interested in seeing the "evidence"?

 

Maybe there is something to it. Maybe not. Regardless, we will never know until it gets presented.

[caracara]

I'm not interested in hearing about what a sucky owner Bud Adams is or what an egomaniac Fisher is and how Fisher literally drove VY crazy.

 

Gotcha. and I hate to hear folks regurgitating garbage that was generated from within the titans front office. And you're probably not interested in the percentage of pro QBs who grew up in the ghetto with no dad and had an unstable mom on crack, and then got so popular that the mayor is trading on his name to get votes. " It's pretty hard to drive someone crazy unless you're already on the road, with the car pointed in that direction." but that is your car pointed in that direction.

 

Anyway, I'm glad, hopeful, that you're at least willing to take a "let's see" attitude.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Vince Young is a Bill, whether I liked the signing or not. Was he worth the trouble? The answer will be revealed in time.

My issue with VY is he has shown, since joining the NFL, a history of dealing with stress and pressure pretty poorly.

 

Can he overcome this issue? Possibly. Again, time and circumstances will tell.

 

I just have a hard time with posters who describe Vince's problem as being a "maturity" issue, or that Chan can "fix" him.

 

Teams do not bring in a psychologist because the player is sitting in the corner "pouting".

 

Now, for the poster who's claiming Vince is just a victim of some grand conspiracy, come on, are you not even just a little bit interested in seeing the "evidence"?

 

Maybe there is something to it. Maybe not. Regardless, we will never know until it gets presented.

First off, thanks for not reciprocating my rudeness with the same.

 

As far as "grand conspiracy" goes, I think that it could just as accurately (if not more) be described as "unfavorable circumstances" although your point about these problems cropping up after his initial success is very strong. It does seem strange that Young had a very nice rookie season but that he developed problems later in his tenure in Nashville.

 

As far as the maturity thing goes, I think we can all agree that (to a greater or lesser degree) we all mature as we age.

 

I don't think that it's beyond belief that the rough sledding of the past few years hasn't had a positive effect on Young's overall perspective.

 

I know I was a "late bloomer" so it's easy for me to believe that this guy (he's 29 years old I believe) views his career differently than he did a few years ago.

 

As Hopeful expressed, I'm not too much into the gory details at this point.

 

Like you said, he's a Bill now and as such, he has my support.

 

 

 

 

[4BillsintheBurgh]

What I am interested in is a football question of whether there is anything to be learned from Gailey's handling of Kordell (which I never studied so please correcr me with some numbers if his work was not successful) for handling a player like VY.

What Chan does well is assess the strengths of a player and put them in situations to maximize their talents. He did this with Kordell, he allowed Kordell to play to his own strengths, run the ball when required etc. I also thought at the time he had simplified the offense to the point where Yancey Thigpen was the primary read and if it wasn't there progress to check down or start running. When Thigpen got hurt productivity went down. It didn't help that the other receivers were dropping balls either. Over time Kordell did not improve his accuracy or his decision making and the Steelers let him go.

I think it is a good sign when qb's under a coach have career years, it says the coach can bring out the best in a player. I think Chan has that track record, and I look forward to what he can do with VY. I think OBD are probably looking at VY as a poor man's Cam Newton; if they can make him into something in a year great, if not they move on.

That's another nice feature of our good ol' boys north; if you can't play you're not going to hang around.

[DefenseWinzChampionshipz]

Once again, people are trying to compare TO's "diva" problem to VYs "mental" problem.

 

TO's issue was ego driven. For the majority of players, if their ego gets bashed enough, they get the hint: "You are no longer the man. Shut your trap and do what you are told". Ego driven people can actually thrive under pressure.

 

VY's issue is different. Once the pressure and stress started building, he snapped. Yes, having a hissy fit and throwing your pads into the stands sounds like a "diva" gone wild, but prior to that, Young suffered from severe depression and, was rumored to be suicidal at one point.

 

And that's just the stuff that got out.

Chan may able to do a lot of things, but being a psychologist is not one of them.

 

I never knew Young suffered depression. I myself at 18 years old (34 now) suffered a serious depression also. Mine was triggered from smoking too much weed. I still love the smell of it when my friends smoke but I can't touch that stuff anymore cuz when I smoke I get anxiety. Also I'm 1 month into my p90x dvd's haha. But seriously, depression is a very serious disease. Some people aren't mentally strong enough to overcome it and actually DO kill themselves. I liked the VY signing before, but after finding out he suffered depression and maybe overcame or at least is in the process of overcoming it? I like him even more. I'm still a Fitz guy though (just thought I should add that).