A specific question about squeezing more productivity from Young

[Hplarrm]

Gailey has demonstrated in the past that he was able to take a tremendous athletically gifted but raw unconventional QB Kordell Stewart and alter his play style and massage his offense to get unprecedented solid production out of Kordell (actually less production from this slash player in terms of his individual stats but better production from him in terms of his teams W/L which actually is the most meaningful stat).

 

What did Gailey do to achieve this result?

 

There is an obvious though in the end fairly meaningless racial similarity between the two, but I am curious if there are more relevant issues which deal with the game.

 

Overall, I am pretty unconcerned about the VY as an idiot cancer, since quite frankly this 1 year deal puts the cards in the Bills hands as the general possibilities are that if he is an idiot he is easy to cut and a positive for the Bills management as they get a chance to discipline a player who is more interested in himself than the team.

 

On the other hand, if VY were to reverse his past personality (doubtful though possible in this sport) then the Bills can make a judgement whether he is worth the huge amount that the market demands for a successful starting QB.

 

If there is ever a VY issue it will be next year and not this one as all the dynamics push VY toward the same situation TO had in his one season as a Bill, despite the immediate whining of some that he was poisonm back here in reality TO realized that he needed to be productive on the field and generally fly right his first year.

 

There are simply few ways for VY to become a cancer as this strongly implies winning the hearts of some teammates and fans so the team becomes divided. VY has to both productive on the field and a good guy in the locker room before he could actually divide the team.

 

Those who whine the loudest about him are merely providing proof if they are right that he is such an idiot he will never earn enough respect from any fans or teammates to divide us.

 

What I am interested in is a football question of whether there is anything to be learned from Gailey's handling of Kordell (which I never studied so please correcr me with some numbers if his work was not successful) for handling a player like VY.

[#34fan]

Come on, are you really serious with this? Gailey simply let Kordell be Kordell. The kid was a winner in college, and really had a lot of natural talent. -Kind of like a former Titan we recently signed. The only difference worth mentioning is that Kordell was a team player, and Vince is well... Vince.

 

If he's smart, Chan just let's Vince do what he does on the field, and take credit for it if it works. if it doesn't work then -cut him.

 

I think the question ALL Bills fans (including myself) have to ask ourselves is if Vince Young turns out to be THE MAN in B-lo, can you bring yourselves to root for him? -If not, then why? I can say for my part, that if Young does win the job, and proves that he can be a "team" guy, he will have my full support, and backing. provided, of course, that he also keeps his nose clean.

 

overall, It's a good signing. Only time will tell if it was worth the risk.

Edited May 13, 2012 by #34fan

[Cynical]

Gailey has demonstrated in the past that he was able to take a tremendous athletically gifted but raw unconventional QB Kordell Stewart and alter his play style and massage his offense to get unprecedented solid production out of Kordell (actually less production from this slash player in terms of his individual stats but better production from him in terms of his teams W/L which actually is the most meaningful stat).

 

What did Gailey do to achieve this result?

 

There is an obvious though in the end fairly meaningless racial similarity between the two, but I am curious if there are more relevant issues which deal with the game.

 

Overall, I am pretty unconcerned about the VY as an idiot cancer, since quite frankly this 1 year deal puts the cards in the Bills hands as the general possibilities are that if he is an idiot he is easy to cut and a positive for the Bills management as they get a chance to discipline a player who is more interested in himself than the team.

 

On the other hand, if VY were to reverse his past personality (doubtful though possible in this sport) then the Bills can make a judgement whether he is worth the huge amount that the market demands for a successful starting QB.

 

If there is ever a VY issue it will be next year and not this one as all the dynamics push VY toward the same situation TO had in his one season as a Bill, despite the immediate whining of some that he was poisonm back here in reality TO realized that he needed to be productive on the field and generally fly right his first year.

 

Once again, people are trying to compare TO's "diva" problem to VYs "mental" problem.

 

TO's issue was ego driven. For the majority of players, if their ego gets bashed enough, they get the hint: "You are no longer the man. Shut your trap and do what you are told". Ego driven people can actually thrive under pressure.

 

VY's issue is different. Once the pressure and stress started building, he snapped. Yes, having a hissy fit and throwing your pads into the stands sounds like a "diva" gone wild, but prior to that, Young suffered from severe depression and, was rumored to be suicidal at one point.

 

And that's just the stuff that got out.

Chan may able to do a lot of things, but being a psychologist is not one of them.

[caracara]

Vince is a born leader who lifts up the players around him. That is how he comes off the bench in a winless season and takes a team on an 8 game winning streak. As far as being a locker room problem, he could be a problem if the coach wants another QB to start and most of the players would rather Vince be the QB. But he isn't a malcontent or a crybaby or soft. When he came in for a workout he was described as "aggressive." Yeah he is.

Fisher didn't want VY at all, but the owner Adams forced it. By his passive/aggressive sabotage of VY's career Fisher sent a message to Adams (and owners in general) that you cannot force a QB on a tenured NFL coach. Football is a coach's game and the NFL is a coach's league, so Fisher and his front office got a lot of support, and is still getting it. Truthfully, Fisher literally drove him nuts, so he could say "I told you so."

 

If Chan and co are honest with him, there is nothing to worry about. One thing for sure, there are certain media people who hate Vince and who will dog him to the end. But you have never heard VY say anything negative about his teammates or coaches. His work ethic is good. He earned his ROY and pro-bowls on a team where the head coach had a severe conflict of interests. But VY has no conflict. He wants to win championships.

[Lurker]

Vince is a born leader who lifts up the players around him.

Damnit!

 

Now I've got to clean the coffee off my monitor...

[caracara]

Damnit!

 

Now I've got to clean the coffee off my monitor...

 

I'll quietly bide my time with guys like you.

[#34fan]

I'll quietly bide my time with guys like you.

 

While I hope VY proves everyone (including myself) wrong. I think it's highly unlikely. I'm hoping he can focus some of the maturity he's gained over the years, and give Fitzpatrick a true run for his money.

[swnybillsfan]

i don't think chan has anything at all to do with vy's success. everyone can see the talent that this guy has, it's all in vince's hands. act like a man, put the work in, be a team player...could be the resurrection of a promising carreer. act like a malcontent or have a strong sense of entitlement...hello unemployment line.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Vince is a born leader who lifts up the players around him. That is how he comes off the bench in a winless season and takes a team on an 8 game winning streak. As far as being a locker room problem, he could be a problem if the coach wants another QB to start and most of the players would rather Vince be the QB. But he isn't a malcontent or a crybaby or soft. When he came in for a workout he was described as "aggressive." Yeah he is.

Fisher didn't want VY at all, but the owner Adams forced it. By his passive/aggressive sabotage of VY's career Fisher sent a message to Adams (and owners in general) that you cannot force a QB on a tenured NFL coach. Football is a coach's game and the NFL is a coach's league, so Fisher and his front office got a lot of support, and is still getting it. Truthfully, Fisher literally drove him nuts, so he could say "I told you so."

 

If Chan and co are honest with him, there is nothing to worry about. One thing for sure, there are certain media people who hate Vince and who will dog him to the end. But you have never heard VY say anything negative about his teammates or coaches. His work ethic is good. He earned his ROY and pro-bowls on a team where the head coach had a severe conflict of interests. But VY has no conflict. He wants to win championships.

To the bolded above, I've heard this before more than once.

 

Fisher never wanted to draft Young so that was not the greatest situation for a young QB to be placed in.

 

It is documented that in 2009, with the team starting 0-6 under Kerry Collins that Jeff Fisher refused to play Young.

 

Finally owner Bud Adams ordered Fisher to start Young and the team went 8-2 down the stretch.

 

When you consider what the players in Tennessee have said in the wake of Fisher's departure about the improvements under Munchak, and you consider the Jeff Fisher/Gregg Williams situation in St. Louis, it gives you cause to consider exactly how good a football coach Jeff Fisher really is.

 

Fisher is still a good coach and there's still questions about Vince Young's mental makeup but I think there's a lot more to it than just "Vince Young is destined to fail because he's mentally weak."

 

 

Personally I love it that Young has a lot of critics to prove wrong. And I wouldn't bet against the guy.

[caracara]

I'm happy Vince is in Buffalo. I think this franchise is hungry to win again, and the ownership, coaches and fans seem to be on the same page ( other than ex-GM Bill Polian who hates VY with a passion).

Anyway, I don't see a bunch of political crap and division in Buffalo. I'm glad VY is getting a fair shot despite the general perception out there.

[Hplarrm]

Once again, people are trying to compare TO's "diva" problem to VYs "mental" problem.

 

TO's issue was ego driven. For the majority of players, if their ego gets bashed enough, they get the hint: "You are no longer the man. Shut your trap and do what you are told". Ego driven people can actually thrive under pressure.

 

VY's issue is different. Once the pressure and stress started building, he snapped. Yes, having a hissy fit and throwing your pads into the stands sounds like a "diva" gone wild, but prior to that, Young suffered from severe depression and, was rumored to be suicidal at one point.

 

And that's just the stuff that got out.

Chan may able to do a lot of things, but being a psychologist is not one of them.

The neat thing about the Bills signing of VY to a one year deal to me seems to be that it does not require Chan to play psychologist at all. He 1. gets to use VY's presence to force other teams to prepare for the potential they might see him (and thus take away planning, teaching and practice rep time from the opponent preparing for the Bils base O)and 2. gets to let VY sink or swim on his own with the role this previously immature player chooses to play on the team.

 

I am of the mind that it is pretty impossible to change a person who does not want to be changed. VY has several million $ worth of reasons to fly right and true in what is flat-out a try-out season for him to establish his market value for next year.

 

If VY is the idiot many of his detractors expect him to be it simply makes things way wasy for Gailey as he merely enjoys the possibility other teams must prepare for until it becomes clear VY is never going to play because he is an idiot (even better if VY goes off in some sort of public way, Gailey gets a free shot at simply cutting this idiot for the good of his team.

 

The big difference here is not the psychoanalysis you seem to be doing in what type of immature idiot TO is versus what type of immature idiot Vince Young is. The big difference is that Bud Adams and the Titans were into Young for a huge cap hit (whether they played him or cut him) and a major draft choice.

 

The Bills however, not only are not invested in VY with a valuable draft pick but simply have a minimal cap hit invested in him.

 

Either Young pays on field benefits for the Bills by being a beard which hinders other teams from prepping for our base O, or he pays benefits by performing on the field.

 

The other basic alternative is that he is a demonstrable fool and Gailey gets to curry favor with the fans and the team by cutting him.

 

The only bad case for the Bills is that he is not the bad case some folks insist he is and he plays well enough to entice a lot of his teammates and fans that he is a winner and then the Bills have a difficult decision NEXT year.

 

If VY is as big of an idiot as some folks seem to claim then this will not be a problem as we will get a lot of profit from tossing him out there as a threat and then cutting his silly butt to make a point.

 

Its hard for me to see logically how anyone has a problem with this signing unless they are Thigpen's Mom.

[CowgirlsFan]

My take is to involve Mack Brown his former

coach at Texas in any way Chan can.

 

Vince hasn't been the same QB since he

has been away from Mack.

[caracara]

My take is to involve Mack Brown his former

coach at Texas in any way Chan can.

 

Vince hasn't been the same QB since he

has been away from Mack.

 

Vince and Mack Brown are very close. In fact Mack was at a big fundraiser for VY's foundation last week. but The Bills don't need anything from Mack Brown for Vince to succeed. Vince has been dominating in sports since the day he picked up a ball. All that "suicide and depression" talk. That is all crap. That is all "leaked" from Fisher's Titan front office.

 

I think if Vince is designated to be a role player in certain schemes, he'll be a good one and he'll fire up the offense. If he gets a chance to start, he'll make hay w/the opportunity.

[Mike in Syracuse]

Vince is a born leader who lifts up the players around him. That is how he comes off the bench in a winless season and takes a team on an 8 game winning streak. As far as being a locker room problem, he could be a problem if the coach wants another QB to start and most of the players would rather Vince be the QB. But he isn't a malcontent or a crybaby or soft. When he came in for a workout he was described as "aggressive." Yeah he is.

Fisher didn't want VY at all, but the owner Adams forced it. By his passive/aggressive sabotage of VY's career Fisher sent a message to Adams (and owners in general) that you cannot force a QB on a tenured NFL coach. Football is a coach's game and the NFL is a coach's league, so Fisher and his front office got a lot of support, and is still getting it. Truthfully, Fisher literally drove him nuts, so he could say "I told you so."

 

If Chan and co are honest with him, there is nothing to worry about. One thing for sure, there are certain media people who hate Vince and who will dog him to the end. But you have never heard VY say anything negative about his teammates or coaches. His work ethic is good. He earned his ROY and pro-bowls on a team where the head coach had a severe conflict of interests. But VY has no conflict. He wants to win championships.

 

Weird, seems very few others feel this way. I'd suggest you listen to this.

 

http://audio.wgr550.com/a/56300546/5-12-david-boclair.htm?pageid=401027

 

"born leaders" aren't known to throw their gear into the crowd after they play like crap.

[Best Player Available]

To the bolded above, I've heard this before more than once.

 

Fisher never wanted to draft Young so that was not the greatest situation for a young QB to be placed in.

 

It is documented that in 2009, with the team starting 0-6 under Kerry Collins that Jeff Fisher refused to play Young.

 

Finally owner Bud Adams ordered Fisher to start Young and the team went 8-2 down the stretch.

 

When you consider what the players in Tennessee have said in the wake of Fisher's departure about the improvements under Munchak, and you consider the Jeff Fisher/Gregg Williams situation in St. Louis, it gives you cause to consider exactly how good a football coach Jeff Fisher really is.

 

Fisher is still a good coach and there's still questions about Vince Young's mental makeup but I think there's a lot more to it than just "Vince Young is destined to fail because he's mentally weak."

 

 

Personally I love it that Young has a lot of critics to prove wrong. And I wouldn't bet against the guy.

So, why did Fisher have it in for VY? I remember him playing lights out for several games very early on.If what I've read about Fisher is true, he sounds like a douche. Its not like VY was the first player to have a massive ego, or a me first attitude..

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Weird, seems very few others feel this way. I'd suggest you listen to this.

 

http://audio.wgr550....m?pageid=401027

 

"born leaders" aren't known to throw their gear into the crowd after they play like crap.

I can't vouch for Vince Young because I don't know the guy, never met him, etc.

 

However I can say two things on his character:

 

1) For every source/link that anyone provides that questions or criticizes his character, I'm pretty sure I can find one that say just the opposite. I doubt when he almost single-handedly defeated USC in the National Championship Game that people were questioning his character… least of all the guys in the huddle with him.

 

2) I would sure hope that my character for the rest of my life wouldn't be judged from an incident or two that happened when I was a young man.

 

So, why did Fisher have it in for VY? I remember him playing lights out for several games very early on.If what I've read about Fisher is true, he sounds like a douche. Its not like VY was the first player to have a massive ego, or a me first attitude..

I don't know positively but like others have suggested, marquee Head Coaches probably resent when their owners give them orders as to who to draft and who to start.

 

Like I said, I'm pretty sure Fisher is a good coach but clearly there were issues in Nashville. No one questions that Bud Adams was in Vince Young's corner and that Jeff Fisher wasn't. It seems obvious that there was friction between Adams and Fisher on the Young issue and maybe that was the wedge which eventually drove the two apart following the 2010 season when both Fisher and Young left the Titans.

 

 

[caracara]

So, why did Fisher have it in for VY? I remember him playing lights out for several games very early on.If what I've read about Fisher is true, he sounds like a douche. Its not like VY was the first player to have a massive ego, or a me first attitude..

 

 

Bud Adams the hated owner, moved the Oilers out of Houston, to Nashville. everybody has always hated Adams everyplace he's been. Even other owners hate Bud Adams.

VY is a legend in Houston, from the inside out. He is the definition of a hometown (Bigass City) hero. Then he wins an NC with UT. The Houston mayor led a campaign to convince the Texans to draft Vince.

For Bud Adams, acquiring Vince was a way of thumbing his nose at Houston. Understandably Fisher (a USC grad btw) didn't want anything to do with that. He didn't want Vince. Vince really couldn't have ended up in a worse situation.

 

I believe Fisher is or was a good football coach, but his ego drove him to orchestrate a very cold-blooded attack on a QB who was pushed down his throat by an idiot owner.. Vince was blindsided by it. He probably thought that he'd get the same kind of support a highly paid franchise top-5-pick QB usually gets, especially since he came out hard and won games with the Titans as a rookie.

 

so basically san jose bills fan is right on the money. but there is a little back-story.

Edited May 13, 2012 by caracara

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

Bud Adams the hated owner, moved the Oilers out of Houston, to Nashville. everybody has always hated Adams everyplace he's been. Even other owners hate Bud Adams.

VY is a legend in Houston, from the inside out. He is the definition of a hometown (Bigass City) hero. Then he wins an NC with UT. The Houston mayor led a campaign to convince the Texans to draft Vince.

For Bud Adams, acquiring Vince was a way of thumbing his nose at Houston. Understandably Fisher (a USC grad btw) didn't want anything to do with that. He didn't want Vince. Vince really couldn't have ended up in a worse situation.

 

I believe Fisher is or was a good football coach, but his ego drove him to orchestrate a very cold-blooded attack on a QB who was pushed down his throat by an idiot owner.. Vince was blindsided by it. He probably thought that he'd get the same kind of support a highly paid franchise top-5-pick QB usually gets, especially since he came out hard and won games with the Titans as a rookie.

 

so basically san jose bills fan is right on the money. but there is a little back-story.

 

Interesting back story....

 

And I'm pretty sure Bud Adams is insane. Anyone have a link or pic to where he flipped off the Ralph crowd ?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Vince is a born leader who lifts up the players around him. That is how he comes off the bench in a winless season and takes a team on an 8 game winning streak. As far as being a locker room problem, he could be a problem if the coach wants another QB to start and most of the players would rather Vince be the QB. But he isn't a malcontent or a crybaby or soft. When he came in for a workout he was described as "aggressive." Yeah he is.

Fisher didn't want VY at all, but the owner Adams forced it. By his passive/aggressive sabotage of VY's career Fisher sent a message to Adams (and owners in general) that you cannot force a QB on a tenured NFL coach. Football is a coach's game and the NFL is a coach's league, so Fisher and his front office got a lot of support, and is still getting it. Truthfully, Fisher literally drove him nuts, so he could say "I told you so."

 

If Chan and co are honest with him, there is nothing to worry about. One thing for sure, there are certain media people who hate Vince and who will dog him to the end. But you have never heard VY say anything negative about his teammates or coaches. His work ethic is good. He earned his ROY and pro-bowls on a team where the head coach had a severe conflict of interests. But VY has no conflict. He wants to win championships.

 

I think this bolded phrase represents a big problem right there. How would one know most of the players would rather have Vince be the QB? Is he taking a poll? Lobbying the players for support? That's called "dividing the locker room" and it's cancer. If it's relying on media reports, then it's just foolishness to take them too seriously.

 

I wasn't there in Titans-ville - I don't want to defend or disparage VY there neither do I want to defend or disparage Fisher or Adams. It's over. Move on.

 

The Bills management have been very straightforward that Young is NOT the starter, Fitz is. It doesn't matter what the players want now, or what the players want halfway through the season. It doesn't matter if it's some players, many players, most players, all the players. The coach is running the team, not just in the NFL but EVERY SPORT, EVERYWHERE. And a guy who can't accept that and accept the role he's given deserves every word he's given - malcontent, crybaby, locker room cancer, etcetera.

 

I wish VY's character as "a leader who lifts up the players around him" had been more in evidence when he came off the bench in Philly.

[#34fan]

Bud Adams the hated owner, moved the Oilers out of Houston, to Nashville. everybody has always hated Adams everyplace he's been. Even other owners hate Bud Adams.

VY is a legend in Houston, from the inside out. He is the definition of a hometown (Bigass City) hero. Then he wins an NC with UT. The Houston mayor led a campaign to convince the Texans to draft Vince.

For Bud Adams, acquiring Vince was a way of thumbing his nose at Houston. Understandably Fisher (a USC grad btw) didn't want anything to do with that. He didn't want Vince. Vince really couldn't have ended up in a worse situation.

 

I believe Fisher is or was a good football coach, but his ego drove him to orchestrate a very cold-blooded attack on a QB who was pushed down his throat by an idiot owner.. Vince was blindsided by it. He probably thought that he'd get the same kind of support a highly paid franchise top-5-pick QB usually gets, especially since he came out hard and won games with the Titans as a rookie.

 

so basically san jose bills fan is right on the money. but there is a little back-story.

 

You and San Jose are really making me feel better about Vince Young's presence on this roster. I was never really against it, but the guy's history made me a tad aprehensive. Now that I've gotten a little perspective on his journey, I feel considerably less pressure to judge.

 

So if you could just just explain away the strip-joint fight, and the Jersey throwing incident, I'll be 80 percent of the way there.