Facebook Douche Renounces American Citizenship

[Jauronimo]

of course it changes man. its not set in stone.

 

im simply saying the left over take home should be voted on democratically.

Why?

 

What about when there is no left over take home? What if labor does not have the best interests of the firm at heart? How do you suggest companies deal with the principal agent problem posed when labor outvotes management to give themselves a raise every year, and huge pension packages? When the company loses money should labor take a prorata pay cut? Should all pay be strictly performance based? Profit or starve?

[....lybob]

Why?

 

What about when there is no left over take home? What if labor does not have the best interests of the firm at heart? How do you suggest companies deal with the principal agent problem posed when labor outvotes management to give themselves a raise every year, and huge pension packages? When the company loses money should labor take a prorata pay cut? Should all pay be strictly performance based? Profit or starve?

Where was the concern about the principal agent problem with regards to CEOs - check out the changes in Stockholder, Labor, and CEO compensation from the 1950s to now and tell me which is the outlier.

[Jauronimo]

Where was the concern about the principal agent problem with regards to CEOs - check out the changes in Stockholder, Labor, and CEO compensation from the 1950s to now and tell me which is the outlier.

I'd say CEO compensation is out of hand. Vikram Pandit just got millions while Citi scraped the bottom of the barrel.

 

But what does this have to do with whether all labor should have a say in free cash flow?

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

Why?

 

What about when there is no left over take home? What if labor does not have the best interests of the firm at heart? How do you suggest companies deal with the principal agent problem posed when labor outvotes management to give themselves a raise every year, and huge pension packages? When the company loses money should labor take a prorata pay cut? Should all pay be strictly performance based? Profit or starve?

 

 

it would be in labors interest to stay in business. why would a person destroy themselves?

 

its a situation where, hypothetically, every 6 months, labor will see the data, and see what they need to invest, to expand, and then they would vote on it. on a much more micro level its similar to when a peson is selling a car or donut. you wouldnt sell the donut for a million dollars. duh...

 

you could also compartmentalize bureaucracy and create more efficiency.

 

btw, im not advocating a utopia, and there is no perfect system.

Edited May 22, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER

[meazza]

it would be in labors interest to stay in business. why would a person destroy themselves?

 

You mean like this?

 

http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/58990-caterpillar-closes-plant-after-lockout

 

The Canadian Auto Workers said it was not surprised by word Friday that American-based heavy equipment maker Caterpillar Inc. would close its Electro-Motive plant in London, Ont., a month after it locked out about 450 workers.

[Jauronimo]

it would be in labors interest to stay in business. why would a person destroy themselves?

 

its a situation where, hypothetically, every 6 months, labor will see the data, and see what they need to invest, to expand, and then they would vote on it. on a much more micro level its similar to when a peson is selling a car or donut. you wouldnt sell the donut for a million dollars. duh...

 

you could also compartmentalize bureaucracy and create more efficiency.

 

btw, im not advocating a utopia, and there is no perfect system.

I don't know. Ask Greece why the common man would continue to vote for short term gratification and certain death. Then look at the programs which are being proposed in the U.S. How willing have unions been to take a haircut and accept terms necessary to save their company from bankruptcy? Why do people engage in all sorts of self-destructive behavior? I don't know why, and I don't need to know why. I just need to know that they do, willfully and frequently, even in the face of cold hard facts.

 

Compartmentalize? You mean like corporate governance, a board of directors, proxy voting, compensation committees?

[meazza]

I don't know. Ask Greece why the common man would continue to vote for short term gratification and certain death. Then look at the programs which are being proposed in the U.S. How willing have unions been to take a haircut and accept terms necessary to save their company from bankruptcy? Why do people engage in all sorts of self-destructive behavior? I don't know why, and I don't need to know why. I just need to know that they do, willfully and frequently, even in the face of cold hard facts.

 

Compartmentalize? You mean like corporate governance, a board of directors, proxy voting, compensation committees?

 

What is the recommended percent of independent board members???

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

You mean like this?

 

http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/58990-caterpillar-closes-plant-after-lockout

 

 

is this a capitalsit structure? ie shareholders? business owner?

 

is this a co-op?

 

i would imagine you would create a co-op constitution.

 

1- you cant vote out other jobs, rather only market forces will let that person make that decision.

 

ie, if a persons wage gets low enough, because profits are going down, then they might walk away from that co-op.

[Jauronimo]

What is the recommended percent of independent board members???

75%?

[meazza]

75%?

 

Bingo.

 

is this a capitalsit structure? ie shareholders? business owner?

 

No it's a communist structure. The proletariat locked out the union.

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

I don't know. Ask Greece why the common man would continue to vote for short term gratification and certain death. Then look at the programs which are being proposed in the U.S. How willing have unions been to take a haircut and accept terms necessary to save their company from bankruptcy? Why do people engage in all sorts of self-destructive behavior? I don't know why, and I don't need to know why. I just need to know that they do, willfully and frequently, even in the face of cold hard facts.

 

Compartmentalize? You mean like corporate governance, a board of directors, proxy voting, compensation committees?

 

 

no, sometimes institutions get to big. this is why govt has so much waste. there is no real market incentive, and accountability on that scale is just crazy. read eichmann in jerusalem. anyone thats been in the military or navy knows this. this creates bureaucratic problems. a collective action- problem.

 

a system of 100 people is easier than a system of 20,000.

 

so, for example, you might compartmentalize according to what currency that part of the business is in. ie different leadership checks for different costs of living areas, surrounding business, resource availability and cost, etc. 10 smaller parts work better than 1 big part.

 

obviously this is very complicated, but thats a simple short answer.

 

Bingo.

 

 

 

No it's a communist structure. The proletariat locked out the union.

 

 

no. im not a communist or leninist.

 

i believe in markets and individuals should be free to start or leave a union.

Edited May 22, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER

[OCinBuffalo]

ummm no. private property doesnt extend to an infinite nature outward or inward, ie everyone, or just 1 person. thats what you are getting at. in laymans terms, leninism subsicribed to this, ie a command economy. i dont agree with that. btw, warren is not advocating this, but thats besides the point.

 

i think most people subscribe to the idea that association in a market is a baseline. so more specifically, money and labor working together to sell a product through contractual agreement. i think this boxes in most ideas of where lines are drawn. private property in this sense means the means of life and production. it does not mean your personal house, car, glass,cell phone.

 

this makes some logical sense in that, without lines on personal property, there would be chaos. obviously someone just can walk in your house or car.

 

in other words, we are talking about what is earned and not what is assumed owned. ie, we need a justification for private property.

 

so, say for example, i pay 100$ for a nice bicycle. the labor cost received reciprocation, and the initial necessary investment received reciprocation. this amount was developed through market force. ie supply/demand and a relative concern for political stability. now of course, markets are much more nuanced than that when talking about equilibrium and what constitutes value, if x is valued, should y receive less, etc. for now, to keep it simple, its just supply and demand.

 

so basically, the person who bought the bike, paid his debt to the people creating that bike. it is now his. same for any regular purchase.

 

here is where private property is not justified, regardless regardless of whether or not labor agrees to this.

 

what i mean by this is, there are human wants/desire, and then there are only choices available. so for example, unskilled workers, have little demand in an economy. they are easily replacable. this is in job opportunity and wages.

 

so, if a person is only given a few choices, and those other choices are being restricted for unjustified reasons, then you have coercion.

 

so for example, cheap slave labor in china cannot just quit, their family would suffer greatly. another example would be after the civil war, many slaves went back to their slave owners and took horribly low wages, why? they had no other choice. this happens now to a much lesser extent. but it is pretty bad. it is almost impossible to live by yourself in minimum wage or making 10$ an hr. this is why the means of produciton is so important. it is generally the source of life, and without it, people suffer. so this obviously creates a salient question? why do people put up with such horrible conditions? because they have to. there are no better options, at least not in the near term. ( you just cant quit your job, especially with a family or other relevant circumstance. thats a dangerous risk.) this is much more salient with unskilled workers.

the other choice being restricted for unjustified reasons, or arbitrary reasons of power, is no democratic say in your labor in x corporation.

 

never mind surplus value, never mind alienation, never mind any of that stuff. what is truly troubling is initial investment or another person can control or tell another person what to do with their body, when their body is just as much if not more of a contribution to production than finite capital.

 

this is highly totalitarian in that many and all at the top level, we have managerial positions that are totally unecessary and are only stuctures of unjustified power. what a person can do on their own does not need to be imposed. obviously some positions hold higher levels of competency in different skill areas. e.g. a chemist will not tell a welder what to do. in other words, you need a rational reason to hold power here, 1- consent, 2- an expertise or general aptitude someone needs. simply telling someone im the boss and do what i say is not a reason. thats autocratic by definition.

 

and here is the irony, the elizabeth warren example is saying that its wrong for property to extend outward forever, (ie the bus driver example). yet, this is exactly what capitalism does/wants/justifies. ie-walmart.

 

my other problems are through exploitation. ie forced extraction of surplus value.

 

so for example, say i make 10 bikes at walmart during the 8hr workday. at 10$ an hr. and each bike is sold for 100$.

 

my wages are 80$ for that day, but my work is worth 1000$. this means each day, 920$ is extracted from me. and i have no say over this wealth generation. this becomes incredibly exploitative as profits could increase dramatically over a year, and now the bikes are selling for 150$, yet my hard work, and peoples desire for my work is never rewarded. this doesnt even account for slight inflation. so in many circumstances my wages could be going down, yet the value of my work goes up and up and up. in fact, it grown, into another walmart selling bikes.

 

in reality, both parites are contributing capital, yet only one gets to tell the other what to do with their very mind and body. this has nothing to with markets, im for markets. this has to do with structural power.

 

fire away-

 

btw, none of this brings up the point that most credit or loans are made up out of thin air, and their only reason for existence is deposits from poor people. ie the fractional reserve system. so i work really hard at walmart as do other people, and their millions in deposits which is already exploited at walmart, is loaned out, sometimes a 100-1. that means for every 1 real dollar earned, 100 is given for loans. so say 100 walmart employees have collectively 100,000 in the bank. ( hypothetical). that turns into a loan for 10 million for say walmart! now they start another business, say a bar in south beach.

 

its a systematic structure that is a free lunch for the capitalist. the capitalist is taking surplus value, and then hes also taking the rest of their money and creating more surplus value of extraction.

 

in other words, poor people are supporting the rich, its a pyramid scheme.

 

this is why when people say the top 1% pay 45-50% of the taxes is a joke. most, if not all that money came from poor people working. and then those taxes go to protect big business and capital, not workers.

 

we have market discipline for workers, and state protection of capital. few pieces of bread are given out in order to keep people distracted and not hungry.

 

ok- now fire away

Do you recognize that the operative word here is Choices?

 

You believe that making an immediate choice for an unskilled, untrained, uneducated worker, to take a crap job to feed his family is an irreversible, irrevocable choice.

 

It is not. For every example you give, I can give you 5 examples like Andrew Carnegie

 

Making a choice to do a crap job now, does not condemn you to 50+ years of staying in that job. Especially when there are ALREADY a ton of government programs to help you move out of that job and into a better one. But, that comes back to choices again. You have to make good choices, and work hard, to take advantage of the government-generated opportunity.

 

After reading through the above, here's what I now know: you've never worked a day in a blue-collar job with blue-collar people.

 

You have no idea what they think or why. All you have are the naive, theoretical, assumptions of a person whose never been dirty in their lives. In contrast, I have been up to my armpits in raw sewage......because I needed system requirements from the guys that do that. I have worked with blue collar people as a laborer, a supervisor, a consultant, and I have advised at every level of their management. I have worked with every size company in traditional blue collar businesses, and in 4 different industries.

 

Benefit from my experience: maybe, maybe 20% of the people in the jobs you disdain so much are looking to move up....the rest have chosen where they are, with eyes open and on purpose.

 

Here's all you need to see: go to your local county highway department at 3:25 pm. When the clock strikes 3:31, watch them race out of the parking lot....to the local bar. It's like the Daytona...2 minutes...as I was proudly told by said highway people "He has the record for the fastest time...2 minutes ". Now, take care to measure who and how many of them end up in that bar, so that we know that this is in fact the norm, not an outlier. Go ahead and observe this at whatever county highway department/traditional blue collar gig in the country...except the ones in dry counties.

 

Now, who exactly is oppressing these people? Who is forcing them into these choices? They could make other choices, like going to an afternoon/night class, but for some people, they KNOW that this is the job that = their ability and expectations, and God Forbid, they are fine with it. See, and here's the best part = This is NOT judgement, it is merely statement of fact. I know the mindset so well that I can effectively argue both for and against the choice of going to the bar.

 

You can do neither.

 

In fact, you are inadvertently judging these people as having "poor lives". Mosy on into that blue collar bar...and tell them that they shouldn't be happy with their choices/they've chosen poorly. But, tell me before you do, so I can watch what happens to you. And, don't worry, I'll help you find your teeth and drive you to the hospital.

 

And, what happens to the VC who consistently makes bad choices?

 

What happens to the normative "average person"....who consistently makes bad choices?

 

What happens to the person who understands their limitations, accepts them, and makes the best of what they have? Answer: they are are lot happier than the average person, and they don't appreciate being judged by a clown whose never walked a step in their work boots

 

edit:.....and prefers to think of them as widgets in a misguided economic model, rather than as human beings who work hard and take pride in it.

Edited May 22, 2012 by OCinBuffalo

[DC Tom]

my wages are 80$ for that day, but my work is worth 1000$. this means each day, 920$ is extracted from me. and i have no say over this wealth generation. this becomes incredibly exploitative as profits could increase dramatically over a year, and now the bikes are selling for 150$, yet my hard work, and peoples desire for my work is never rewarded. this doesnt even account for slight inflation. so in many circumstances my wages could be going down, yet the value of my work goes up and up and up. in fact, it grown, into another walmart selling bikes.

 

So the materials that went into the ten bicycles you put together, and all the labor downstream expended to turn those materials into a bicycle that you put together, have no worth? The only worth in that $1000 of bicycles is generated by the guy that puts all the parts together?

 

 

That is one of the most ignorant and downright idiotic things posted on this board in the past seven years. You want to know how utterly stupid that is? Ikea furniture is worthless, and you have to put it together yourself, and that logic STILL doesn't work for Ikea.

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

So the materials that went into the ten bicycles you put together, and all the labor downstream expended to turn those materials into a bicycle that you put together, have no worth? The only worth in that $1000 of bicycles is generated by the guy that puts all the parts together?

 

 

That is one of the most ignorant and downright idiotic things posted on this board in the past seven years. You want to know how utterly stupid that is? Ikea furniture is worthless, and you have to put it together yourself, and that logic STILL doesn't work for Ikea.

 

 

no. i said capital is finite, and after a short period of time, labor is the sole source of capital. this is simple math/logic/fact.

 

my work would be buying the materials for the bike.

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

Do you recognize that the operative word here is Choices?

 

You believe that making an immediate choice for an unskilled, untrained, uneducated worker, to take a crap job to feed his family is an irreversible, irrevocable choice.

 

It is not. For every example you give, I can give you 5 examples like Andrew Carnegie

 

Making a choice to do a crap job now, does not condemn you to 50+ years of staying in that job. Especially when there are ALREADY a ton of government programs to help you move out of that job and into a better one. But, that comes back to choices again. You have to make good choices, and work hard, to take advantage of the government-generated opportunity.

 

After reading through the above, here's what I now know: you've never worked a day in a blue-collar job with blue-collar people.

 

You have no idea what they think or why. All you have are the naive, theoretical, assumptions of a person whose never been dirty in their lives. In contrast, I have been up to my armpits in raw sewage......because I needed system requirements from the guys that do that. I have worked with blue collar people as a laborer, a supervisor, a consultant, and I have advised at every level of their management. I have worked with every size company in traditional blue collar businesses, and in 4 different industries.

 

Benefit from my experience: maybe, maybe 20% of the people in the jobs you disdain so much are looking to move up....the rest have chosen where they are, with eyes open and on purpose.

 

Here's all you need to see: go to your local county highway department at 3:25 pm. When the clock strikes 3:31, watch them race out of the parking lot....to the local bar. It's like the Daytona...2 minutes...as I was proudly told by said highway people "He has the record for the fastest time...2 minutes ". Now, take care to measure who and how many of them end up in that bar, so that we know that this is in fact the norm, not an outlier. Go ahead and observe this at whatever county highway department/traditional blue collar gig in the country...except the ones in dry counties.

 

Now, who exactly is oppressing these people? Who is forcing them into these choices? They could make other choices, like going to an afternoon/night class, but for some people, they KNOW that this is the job that = their ability and expectations, and God Forbid, they are fine with it. See, and here's the best part = This is NOT judgement, it is merely statement of fact. I know the mindset so well that I can effectively argue both for and against the choice of going to the bar.

 

You can do neither.

 

In fact, you are inadvertently judging these people as having "poor lives". Mosy on into that blue collar bar...and tell them that they shouldn't be happy with their choices/they've chosen poorly. But, tell me before you do, so I can watch what happens to you. And, don't worry, I'll help you find your teeth and drive you to the hospital.

 

And, what happens to the VC who consistently makes bad choices?

 

What happens to the normative "average person"....who consistently makes bad choices?

 

What happens to the person who understands their limitations, accepts them, and makes the best of what they have? Answer: they are are lot happier than the average person, and they don't appreciate being judged by a clown whose never walked a step in their work boots

 

edit:.....and prefers to think of them as widgets in a misguided economic model, rather than as human beings who work hard and take pride in it.

 

 

please do not insult me and assume where i come from. i was in the military for 4 years and worked my ass off. before that i did roof jobs with my uncle and worked fast food. my parents couldnt afford college so i joined the military-(i didnt want to do this, ie, not my choice)....

 

1- yes people make bad choices, some people are lazy, some people commit crime, others do whatever. im talking about good people, so here, you are irrelevant. i never said there should be a free ride, or no accountability.

 

2- the nature of exploitation through how money is loaned, and how capital structure works, is on a level of ignorance that is borderline ubiquitous...

so many people are taken advantage of simply because they dont know they are being ripped off.

 

3- i reject your analysis that unskilled work has a real choice. im not talking about choice in the sense that they could be a chemist one day. im talking about power to influence their wages and autonomy in the workplace. to their actual work value on a market. if that person has a problem, they are fired.

so, the choice is, accept exploitation to keep the 10-15$ and hr, or get fired and not eat or at a minimum, face a strong possibilty of being evicted from his/her apartment. at an absolute minimum, you logically must admit, you take a big risk quitting your job.

 

there is a difference between choice, and autonomy/desire/moral agency.

 

this is just flat on its face wrong and disturbing when you look at sweat shops overseas. the choice there is on most levels work or die. this is not a free choice.

 

4- again, given the choice, workers would rather make what they are actually worth. obviously.

- 70% of the workforce hates their job. they literally hate it. so, why do they work there? you need to square that problem.

Edited May 22, 2012 by MARCELL DAREUS POWER

[John Adams]

I hate all of you for feeding this troll. All of you.

[MARCELL DAREUS POWER]

Do you recognize that the operative word here is Choices?

 

You believe that making an immediate choice for an unskilled, untrained, uneducated worker, to take a crap job to feed his family is an irreversible, irrevocable choice.

 

It is not. For every example you give, I can give you 5 examples like Andrew Carnegie

 

Making a choice to do a crap job now, does not condemn you to 50+ years of staying in that job. Especially when there are ALREADY a ton of government programs to help you move out of that job and into a better one. But, that comes back to choices again. You have to make good choices, and work hard, to take advantage of the government-generated opportunity.

 

After reading through the above, here's what I now know: you've never worked a day in a blue-collar job with blue-collar people.

 

You have no idea what they think or why. All you have are the naive, theoretical, assumptions of a person whose never been dirty in their lives. In contrast, I have been up to my armpits in raw sewage......because I needed system requirements from the guys that do that. I have worked with blue collar people as a laborer, a supervisor, a consultant, and I have advised at every level of their management. I have worked with every size company in traditional blue collar businesses, and in 4 different industries.

 

Benefit from my experience: maybe, maybe 20% of the people in the jobs you disdain so much are looking to move up....the rest have chosen where they are, with eyes open and on purpose.

 

Here's all you need to see: go to your local county highway department at 3:25 pm. When the clock strikes 3:31, watch them race out of the parking lot....to the local bar. It's like the Daytona...2 minutes...as I was proudly told by said highway people "He has the record for the fastest time...2 minutes ". Now, take care to measure who and how many of them end up in that bar, so that we know that this is in fact the norm, not an outlier. Go ahead and observe this at whatever county highway department/traditional blue collar gig in the country...except the ones in dry counties.

 

Now, who exactly is oppressing these people? Who is forcing them into these choices? They could make other choices, like going to an afternoon/night class, but for some people, they KNOW that this is the job that = their ability and expectations, and God Forbid, they are fine with it. See, and here's the best part = This is NOT judgement, it is merely statement of fact. I know the mindset so well that I can effectively argue both for and against the choice of going to the bar.

 

You can do neither.

 

In fact, you are inadvertently judging these people as having "poor lives". Mosy on into that blue collar bar...and tell them that they shouldn't be happy with their choices/they've chosen poorly. But, tell me before you do, so I can watch what happens to you. And, don't worry, I'll help you find your teeth and drive you to the hospital.

 

And, what happens to the VC who consistently makes bad choices?

 

What happens to the normative "average person"....who consistently makes bad choices?

 

What happens to the person who understands their limitations, accepts them, and makes the best of what they have? Answer: they are are lot happier than the average person, and they don't appreciate being judged by a clown whose never walked a step in their work boots

 

edit:.....and prefers to think of them as widgets in a misguided economic model, rather than as human beings who work hard and take pride in it.

 

 

in fact, it is incredibly ironic that you would say i never worked hard or had a blue collar job, when im sticking up for blue collar jobs. logically, i am in the best position to know what blue collar work is. this tells me or at least hints to two possibilities-

 

1-you have a conflict with labor and you feel guilty.

2- you dont understand the issue.

 

here i am sticking up for vulnerable people, yes those evil people who go to the bar after work and only have 10$ to spend.

 

and then you say i am lazy.

 

this is a classic example of accusing that person of what they are arguing against. a classic propaganda technique. " those evil lazy workers" that lazy chomsky!

 

call it a freudian slip, or call it being a complete douche...

[Chef Jim]

in fact, it is incredibly ironic that you would say i never worked hard or had a blue collar job, when im sticking up for blue collar jobs. logically, i am in the best position to know what blue collar work is. this tells me or at least hints to two possibilities-

 

1-you have a conflict with labor and you feel guilty.

2- you dont understand the issue.

 

here i am sticking up for vulnerable people, yes those evil people who go to the bar after work and only have 10$ to spend.

 

and then you say i am lazy.

 

this is a classic example of accusing that person of what they are arguing against. a classic propaganda technique. " those evil lazy workers" that lazy chomsky!

 

call it a freudian slip, or call it being a complete douche...

 

Have you ever worked a white collar job?

[Jauronimo]

please do not insult me and assume where i come from. i was in the military for 4 years and worked my ass off. before that i did roof jobs with my uncle and worked fast food. my parents couldnt afford college so i joined the military-(i didnt want to do this, ie, not my choice)....

 

1- yes people make bad choices, some people are lazy, some people commit crime, others do whatever. im talking about good people, so here, you are irrelevant. i never said there should be a free ride, or no accountability.

 

2- the nature of exploitation through how money is loaned, and how capital structure works, is on a level of ignorance that is borderline ubiquitous...

so many people are taken advantage of simply because they dont know they are being ripped off.

 

3- i reject your analysis that unskilled work has a real choice. im not talking about choice in the sense that they could be a chemist one day. im talking about power to influence their wages and autonomy in the workplace. to their actual work value on a market. if that person has a problem, they are fired.

so, the choice is, accept exploitation to keep the 10-15$ and hr, or get fired and not eat or at a minimum, face a strong possibilty of being evicted from his/her apartment. at an absolute minimum, you logically must admit, you take a big risk quitting your job.

 

there is a difference between choice, and autonomy/desire/moral agency.

 

this is just flat on its face wrong and disturbing when you look at sweat shops overseas. the choice there is on most levels work or die. this is not a free choice.

 

4- again, given the choice, workers would rather make what they are actually worth. obviously.

- 70% of the workforce hates their job. they literally hate it. so, why do they work there? you need to square that problem.

How is the nature of money lending ignorant? Nice sentence.

 

I was not aware that unskilled labor had no choice in the matter and were required to remain unskilled until their last dying breath. Furthermore, why would you expect an unskilled highly replaceable laborer to have any ability whatsoever to command a better wage? That's the nature of supply and demand. Unskilled labor is highly substitutable and plentiful, which means they have no bargaining power. Want to increase your bargaining power? Stop being so readily replaceable.

 

If everyone loved or even liked their job, they wouldn't have to pay you to do it. You'd pay them. Do you think African bushmen like going days without food and water and risking their lives for food? You do what you must to live. The only problem to be squared is your notion of the way things should be.

[WorldTraveller]

So the materials that went into the ten bicycles you put together, and all the labor downstream expended to turn those materials into a bicycle that you put together, have no worth? The only worth in that $1000 of bicycles is generated by the guy that puts all the parts together?

 

 

That is one of the most ignorant and downright idiotic things posted on this board in the past seven years. You want to know how utterly stupid that is? Ikea furniture is worthless, and you have to put it together yourself, and that logic STILL doesn't work for Ikea.

You must have a lot of time on your hand to read all that, specially considering the source.