3rdnlng Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) I hate all of you for feeding this troll. All of you. This is about as likely as consecutive holes in one. I'm agreeing with you, again. Doesn't it seem like we've recently had a half dozen people that rarely or never post on PPP come over here and try to dominate the conversation, and also with posts lengthy as an op-ed? This sort of tells me how rare a day it has been: http://www.carlysimon.com/music/Lyrics/Safe_and_Sound.html Edited May 23, 2012 by 3rdnlng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 You must have a lot of time on your hand to read all that, specially considering the source. I speed read. Still a waste of the five seconds it took. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) please do not insult me and assume where i come from. i was in the military for 4 years and worked my ass off. before that i did roof jobs with my uncle and worked fast food. my parents couldnt afford college so i joined the military-(i didnt want to do this, ie, not my choice).... 1- yes people make bad choices, some people are lazy, some people commit crime, others do whatever. im talking about good people, so here, you are irrelevant. i never said there should be a free ride, or no accountability. 2- the nature of exploitation through how money is loaned, and how capital structure works, is on a level of ignorance that is borderline ubiquitous... so many people are taken advantage of simply because they dont know they are being ripped off. 3- i reject your analysis that unskilled work has a real choice. im not talking about choice in the sense that they could be a chemist one day. im talking about power to influence their wages and autonomy in the workplace. to their actual work value on a market. if that person has a problem, they are fired. so, the choice is, accept exploitation to keep the 10-15$ and hr, or get fired and not eat or at a minimum, face a strong possibilty of being evicted from his/her apartment. at an absolute minimum, you logically must admit, you take a big risk quitting your job. there is a difference between choice, and autonomy/desire/moral agency. this is just flat on its face wrong and disturbing when you look at sweat shops overseas. the choice there is on most levels work or die. this is not a free choice. 4- again, given the choice, workers would rather make what they are actually worth. obviously. - 70% of the workforce hates their job. they literally hate it. so, why do they work there? you need to square that problem. in fact, it is incredibly ironic that you would say i never worked hard or had a blue collar job, when im sticking up for blue collar jobs. logically, i am in the best position to know what blue collar work is. this tells me or at least hints to two possibilities- 1-you have a conflict with labor and you feel guilty. 2- you dont understand the issue. here i am sticking up for vulnerable people, yes those evil people who go to the bar after work and only have 10$ to spend. and then you say i am lazy. this is a classic example of accusing that person of what they are arguing against. a classic propaganda technique. " those evil lazy workers" that lazy chomsky! call it a freudian slip, or call it being a complete douche... I can guarantee that the blue collar people I work with every day....do not require or desire you, and your ridiculous thinking, speaking for them. You aren't sticking up for them, you are insulting them with your patronization. You don't see the distinction, because you have no business experience, or blue collar industry experience, whatsoever. When was the last time you even spoke with a janitor....not in Denny's, and not for a whole 30 minutes? (<--refers to a PPP long standing meme/joke that comes from the last time we had a patronizing college kid pretending to stick up/speak for poor people, because he talked to one in Denny's...one time. You, like good old bildo, are too blinded by your own need to feel morally superior....to see that you are actually being morally vacuous.) I was a soldier, and I have done more roofing, carpentry, plumbing, painting, wallpapering, etc. with both sides of my family than you can possibly imagine. So what? None/little of that taught me a single thing about the experiences of unskilled, or low-skilled laborers, their organizational viewpoints, or more importantly, the mindset that they have about their role(s). It wasn't until I worked with them every day, and focused specifically on first understanding them and their jobs, for YEARS, and then making their job, and their boss's job, smarter/easier, that I gained the understanding I have now. You, and Chomsky, are the perfect example of the "revolutionary who sees his people parading by...but must find out where they are going...so that he can lead them" You have no idea where they are going, or why, yet you think you know better than everyone involved, while being completely uninvolved personally...and want our respect because you are sticking up for people you never work/speak with? Like I said: naive. Not unintelligent, or uninterested. You are simply naive. Edited May 23, 2012 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Have you ever worked a white collar job? yes, i have done both. mostly blue collar bust your ass work. and no, i didnt talk to some dennys janitor for 20 minutes. im not a pretentious dick like some people here. i was a dishwasher for 1 year in the military, after i hurt my shoulder in swimmer school. i did roofing from age 15-20. i bought my own car. etc etc... please dont preach about hard work. believe me, i know. i despise the limousine liberal! i feel its the main reason people feel cynical about politics and gravitate toward the right. at least the right in some sense, sticks it in your face and can be more honest about life. liberals tend to be hypocritical, and offer bs non-offensive rhetoric... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) yes, i have done both. mostly blue collar bust your ass work. and no, i didnt talk to some dennys janitor for 20 minutes. im not a pretentious dick like some people here. i was a dishwasher for 1 year in the military, after i hurt my shoulder in swimmer school. i did roofing from age 15-20. i bought my own car. etc etc... please dont preach about hard work. believe me, i know. i despise the limousine liberal! i feel its the main reason people feel cynical about politics and gravitate toward the right. at least the right in some sense, sticks it in your face and can be more honest about life. liberals tend to be hypocritical, and offer bs non-offensive rhetoric... So what kind of white collar work have you done? I'm not here to discuss the virtues of hard work. I'm here to discuss the relationship between management and labor and what rolls they each play. Edited May 23, 2012 by Chef Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 So what kind of white collar work have you done? I'm not here to discuss the virtues of hard work. I'm here to discuss the relationship between management and labor and what rolls they each play. i agree management plays a role. if there is aptitude, or required skill and consent. simply telling someone to do something, is not a reason for authority. aptitude and consent are needed. i had a desk job during my last 2 years or so in the coast guard. i had 3 people under me and i ran all pay issues/purchasing/budgeting/inventory/audits for our navigation team and the whole small boat station. it was a logistics job basically. to be honest though, this wasnt really a management position. jmo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Why not start your own bike company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Why not start your own bike company? Theres no margin in the bike business. Why do that when you can loan a guy a toolbelt and own the damn city? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Theres no margin in the bike business. Why do that when you can loan a guy a toolbelt and own the damn city? I thought the margin was $920/day/worker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I thought the margin was $920/day/worker? Only at Wal-Mart, because apparently they smelt their own bauxite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Only at Wal-Mart, because apparently they smelt their own bauxite. All I have to say is if they do that they better be doing it behind closed doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Why not start your own bike company? because i dont have the capital....... and here in my small town it would be impossible for me to compete with the cheap prices of walmart. i dont have capital in slave ridden china... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) because i dont have the capital....... and here in my small town it would be impossible for me to compete with the cheap prices of walmart. i dont have capital in slave ridden china... Exploit your local labor. Do we have to spoon feed this to you? Everywhere you look there is unskilled labor just begging to be exploited. So maybe you'll only make $500 off of each bike instead of $920 since you have to pay more for labor and sell your product for less, but you still are cheating labor out of an incredible amount of wealth. And as long as you're exploiting labor to the tune of $500 per bike, how can you not amass a fortune? This your own model, for Christ's sake. What don't you understand about your own model? Edited May 23, 2012 by Jauronimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldTraveller Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 because i dont have the capital....... and here in my small town it would be impossible for me to compete with the cheap prices of walmart. i dont have capital in slave ridden china... There is a market out there for people who appreciate quality and that are willing to pay more. And why am I even responding to marcell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 because i dont have the capital....... and here in my small town it would be impossible for me to compete with the cheap prices of walmart. i dont have capital in slave ridden china... Unless you're trying to sell cheap junk, or your town is so small that all it can support is a Wal-Mart, this should never be an excuse. Who goes to Wal-Mart to buy their bike? Honestly, this kind of defeatest attitude is the biggest hurdle to success. And as far as capital goes, my buddy wanted to own a restaurant but didn't have any capital. He found a place he could afford and rented it, lived in a shed (nice shed w/ electricity) behind the building for a year waiting tables at night and putting it together piece by piece, then he brought on a partner for the remaining capital he needed, and it's been smooth sailing ever since. If you really want to make it work you'll find a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 because i dont have the capital....... and here in my small town it would be impossible for me to compete with the cheap prices of walmart. i dont have capital in slave ridden china... Seriously? You just spent the whole thread explaining that capital is generated by labor, and anyone who provides capital otherwise is just a freeloader. But you can't start your own company for lack of capital? So basically, you're saying you don't have the ability to be a freeloader. You're a complete !@#$ing idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Seriously? You just spent the whole thread explaining that capital is generated by labor, and anyone who provides capital otherwise is just a freeloader. But you can't start your own company for lack of capital? So basically, you're saying you don't have the ability to be a freeloader. You're a complete !@#$ing idiot. Somehow I picture him as a modern day Maynard G. Krebbs. "Work?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Seriously? You just spent the whole thread explaining that capital is generated by labor, and anyone who provides capital otherwise is just a freeloader. But you can't start your own company for lack of capital? So basically, you're saying you don't have the ability to be a freeloader. You're a complete !@#$ing idiot. you ignored a key tenet, the division of labor. all labor does produce capital, yet the capitalist is in charge(ie the state protecting the reward for doing nothing), not labor. this is why the capitalist is a freeloader and not labor. ie, the slave owner owns capital, and slaves produce everything, yet the slave owner is in charge. you put words in my mouth.... i said capital is finite. and capital is unproductive. this is shown in the flaw of marginal productivity theory. in the case of walmart starting a new business/or just expanding, then yes, all that capital is produced by labor. as walmart gets bigger, all capital is then generated by labor. meaning the capitalist is the freeloader. if you want, i would even argue only labor is productive and capital is not. the problem is initial capital. i dont have that ability.( workers are not in charge ). and even with the remote chance i got the money to buy a hypothetical bike shop or any small general store to compete with walmart, the co-op could not deliver prices as low as walmart. you see, capital can be a 100$ investment. but that is a finite value and will not sustain walmart. in fact, the 100$ is useless and produces nothing without the returns of labor, ie exploitation and extraction... but labor keeps working and working and working, while the capitalist does nothing. its a pyramid scheme. its a power structure with an assinine notion of private property that expands and never stops. this logical end would mean someone could conceptually spend 1$ and then own the world simply because they gave capital. its a joke... like the earlier example noted, which is ironic because the poster didnt realize this hurts capitalism, if someone drives me to work, even one time, do they now own my business. another example would be someone buying a candybar at walmart, do they now own all walmart? that is just ridiculous, yet thats exactly what marginal productivity theory states in capitalism.... this is what you (tom) said.---- at least here is what you should have said, because the above made no sense at all. "you just spent the whole thread explaining all capital is generated by labor, and anyone who wants infinite profits for finite capital is just a freeloader. ie non labor income. but you cant start your own company for lack of capital. so basically, youre saying gaining infinte profits from no work is being a freeloader." yes!!!! because im not in charge of my labor. lol..... sorry i had to make your last statement resemble actual logic and sense.... you need to understand that the state enforces the reward for doing nothing. ie, allowing someone to use your tools is not a productive act. its simply an act of structural power and advantage. ie marginal productiviy theory is incoherent and is facutally not productive. permission is not work, its hierarchy. a hammer, land, money, rent, none of this produces anything without returns on labor. a hammer or land will not produce anything by itself. this is the major distinction between private possesion and private property. private property here means the means of production, not a car, or personal hosue, candybar, etc. land, rent, and interest are forms of arbitrary power, not productivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldTraveller Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 You know what pisses me off? I just read that damn post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARCELL DAREUS POWER Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Unless you're trying to sell cheap junk, or your town is so small that all it can support is a Wal-Mart, this should never be an excuse. Who goes to Wal-Mart to buy their bike? Honestly, this kind of defeatest attitude is the biggest hurdle to success. And as far as capital goes, my buddy wanted to own a restaurant but didn't have any capital. He found a place he could afford and rented it, lived in a shed (nice shed w/ electricity) behind the building for a year waiting tables at night and putting it together piece by piece, then he brought on a partner for the remaining capital he needed, and it's been smooth sailing ever since. If you really want to make it work you'll find a way. then why do all small businesses go bye bye when walmart comes to town? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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