3rdnlng Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 You do realize that while people who otherwise cannot qualify at the time will be pushed into the market...so will everyone else that is currently uninsured...you get this? Healthy uninsured...becoming insured. Also when you say go on the government dole do you mean enter the exchange? What will push them into the market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 It's not "God knows what" though. Yes it's a fat bill. It's complicated reform. Is it too big? Absolutely. But lets move on from the fact that large pieces of complicated legislation reforming an industry that is almost 20% of our GDP as a nation in a way that is politically possible is complicated. Of course it is. That's just life. And of course there are a TON of things yet to be hashed out. The Bill is designed to set a very loose framework outlining the reform. In some areas it's more concrete than in others. Now the relevant agencies will get to work promulgating rules and so on...SAME AS ALWAYS. This is just how it goes. This is what agencies do. They "work things out" most of the time not Congress that is just the reality of modern America. Whether or not this is desirable is another discussion all together ... but it is the way government works. As for the hypothetical you put forth, that just isn't going to happen. Assuming for sake of argument though that the Act would destroy us all and lead to the ruin of the country I would not be "so enthused" about the Bill, lol. If that answers you question. Anyway I've taken on the defender role here but it's not like I AM Obama. Just a reminder, I see it as progress. I see its repeal as backwards. I see a lot of misinformation and propaganda around it and I just want to encourage people to not parrot the totally ridiculous things they hear without some sense of...well...knowledge. These views seem (to me) to be perfectly fine, as are other reasonable views that disagree with them...but go ahead PPP make me an insane person if you want. I can deal with it. So it's 2700 pages and is only a loose framework outlining the reform? We are so !@#$ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) I don't have/want to make you insane. Most Americans can't look to the futue and see that how their actions today affect them down the road. It's a "live now and deal with the consequences later," with the dealing consisting of trying to put out fires. It's no different in how many Americans deal with credit cards, or the government deals with the deficit. You just keep on spending what you don't have and kicking the can further down the road. In any case, PPACA will either be ruled unconstitutional by SCOTUS, and if not that, be repealed by Romney in 2013. But if it's not, and you're sick, good luck finding a health care provider. There will be mass defections from the medical field, enrollment in medical schools will plummet, and quality will suffer. I'm already planning for my soon-to-happen post-medicine life. How can the same people who say "the Bill doesn't address COST!!!" say what you said in that last paragraph? As for Romney repealing it...we'll see about that he's got to pull of the election first and I doubt he can. The SCOTUS threat is obviously real though. Nobody denies that. What will push them into the market? So it's 2700 pages and is only a loose framework outlining the reform? We are so !@#$ed. In some instances it outlines new things to be developed in other areas it is very clear. Same as many other pieces of legislation. I guess we could always so "oh well healthcare as is, is bankrupting the country but it's too complicated to reform so let's just do nothing"...I probably wouldn't vote for that but maybe others would idk... Edited May 15, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 How can the same people who say "the Bill doesn't address COST!!!" say what you said in that last paragraph? As for Romney repealing it...we'll see about that he's got to pull of the election first and I doubt he can. The SCOTUS threat is obviously real though. Nobody denies that. In some instances it outlines new things to be developed in other areas it is very clear. Same as many other pieces of legislation. Answer my question. What will push healthy people into purchasing insurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 You do realize that while people who otherwise cannot qualify at the time will be pushed into the market...so will everyone else that is currently uninsured...you get this? Healthy uninsured...becoming insured. Again, you're banking on the fact that our government will find a way to not only ensure that EVERYONE gets on the plan, but that they also PAY for their coverage. You're banking on the fact that a government that is $16T in debt and has to borrow 40 cents on every dollar it currently spends will be able to guarantee that every person will be covered and paid for? Sorry to break this to you, but just because the government can mandate something doesn't mean it can enforce it. Yes, I hear you. "It's progress. It's a start. It's better than nothing. Yes, it's messy, but we can clean it up. There will be a new agency in charge, and that agency will be run really well...not like GSA or HHS or any of THOSE agencies...but like a real agency with employees on the government payroll who will work hard because their jobs relies on a profit-based system..." Wake up, sir. Not even the WH is promoting this abortion as hard as you. It sucks. It's a mess. And taking the "It's better than nothing" approach while believing it will get better if we just throw more money and people at it is, and always will be, a loser's game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) How can the same people who say "the Bill doesn't address COST!!!" say what you said in that last paragraph? As for Romney repealing it...we'll see about that he's got to pull of the election first and I doubt he can. The SCOTUS threat is obviously real though. Nobody denies that. I said earlier that PPACA will foolishly try to reduce costs by lowering reimbursements to providers. But again, providers account for just 15% of medical costs and the best you're looking at is a 2-3% reduction, which will be more than off-set by other increases in costs. While there will be much longer waits to obtain health care. Edited May 15, 2012 by Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 If your stance is "nobody will do it" then fine. We'll see. Most health insurance professionals I speak with agree....it will in fact push most people into the market which is key to the success of the overall scheme. You think everyone will just say **** it when told they have to and shown new avenues to doing so? That's fine. I don't. Will some? Sure...and those people will have problems just like they do now. End of that discussion really. Good luck to ya w/ that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 How can the same people who say "the Bill doesn't address COST!!!" say what you said in that last paragraph? As for Romney repealing it...we'll see about that he's got to pull of the election first and I doubt he can. The SCOTUS threat is obviously real though. Nobody denies that. It doesn't address health care costs. Only health insurance costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) I said earlier that PPACA will foolishly try to reduce costs by lowering reimbursements to providers. But again, providers account for just 15% of medical costs and the best you're looking at is a 2-3% reduction, which will be more than off-set by other increases in costs. While there will be much longer waits to obtain health care. I talked earlier about my take on addressing costs and how no piece of legislation will do it. My thoughts are a mere page or two back as to how costs will hopefully come down as the industry reforms itself. Either way the GOP put forth no intelligent thoughts on any of this...it's all just "no, no, no." The PPACA does address costs in some measure where it can as well as fraud...how successful those particular parts of the bill will be is up for interpretation. The costs issue in particular is not something that is reasonable to ask be fixed with a magic document produced by either party. Edited May 15, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 How can the same people who say "the Bill doesn't address COST!!!" say what you said in that last paragraph? As for Romney repealing it...we'll see about that he's got to pull of the election first and I doubt he can. The SCOTUS threat is obviously real though. Nobody denies that. It doesn't address health care costs. Only health insurance costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 It doesn't address health care costs. Only health insurance costs. LOL. GO DC TOM! Address costs! Let's see you do it! Go...do it! Woo...it's soo easy! If only Romney were in charge the costs would be all fixed!!! Wooo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 LOL. GO DC TOM! Address costs! Let's see you do it! Go...do it! Woo...it's soo easy! If only Romney were in charge the costs would be all fixed!!! Wooo! If it's so hard, and you know it's hard, and you know the ACA doesn't address it...then stop claiming it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 If your stance is "nobody will do it" then fine. We'll see. Most health insurance professionals I speak with agree....it will in fact push most people into the market which is key to the success of the overall scheme. You think everyone will just say **** it when told they have to and shown new avenues to doing so? That's fine. I don't. Will some? Sure...and those people will have problems just like they do now. End of that discussion really. Good luck to ya w/ that. Ah, more fluff. When asked a specific, spew out some nonspecific bs. Just like posting a whole bunch of cut and paste crap and pretending your specific answers are in it for the rest of us to discover. What a phony you are. Then again, most of you liberals can't back up your grandiose ideas with facts or specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Ah, more fluff. When asked a specific, spew out some nonspecific bs. Just like posting a whole bunch of cut and paste crap and pretending your specific answers are in it for the rest of us to discover. What a phony you are. Then again, most of you liberals can't back up your grandiose ideas with facts or specifics. 3rdling what in God's name do you have that you would call "specifics?" Your forumla is as follows: 1. Make crazy uneducated vague/general attacking assertion, 2. Demand those you are talking with to produce an "answer" by rules you don't follow yourself. Troll in rare form. DC Tom not sure you've been reading the same thing I've been typing...idk what to tell ya... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 If it's so hard, and you know it's hard, and you know the ACA doesn't address it...then stop claiming it does. THINK OF THE UNINSURED CHILDREN!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 In some instances it outlines new things to be developed in other areas it is very clear. Same as many other pieces of legislation. I guess we could always so "oh well healthcare as is, is bankrupting the country but it's too complicated to reform so let's just do nothing"...I probably wouldn't vote for that but maybe others would idk... It should have been done piecmeal but the Dems had the WH, Senate and Congress and knew they had to ram it through quickly. And that's why we've got this POS legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 3rdling what in God's name do you have that you would call "specifics?" Your forumla is as follows: 1. Make crazy uneducated vague/general attacking assertion, 2. Demand those you are talking with to produce an "answer" by rules you don't follow yourself. Troll in rare form. DC Tom not sure you've been reading the same thing I've been typing...idk what to tell ya... You made some assertions. You have refused to back them up with any specifics and even used the foolish canard of posting the way of finding your answers, if we want to read 2700 pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 http://www.healthcare.gov/law/timeline/index.html I thought it was supposed to be 85% fo each dollar, as in this tutorial- I guess it has changed to 80%. Either way, althought not perfect, there is SO much good that has been implemented so far.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) You made some assertions. You have refused to back them up with any specifics and even used the foolish canard of posting the way of finding your answers, if we want to read 2700 pages. I posted a road map for you to use to begin to educate yourself on some basic questions you seem to have (what is the fine? etc)...and you think I'm trying to fool you. I'm not trying to trick or fool you. I was actually trying to help you. Yes 3rdnlng I'm sorry but if you want to discuss this sort thing intelligently you will have to do some reading. It's ok though I'm sure you would survive it. As for the specific assertion I made regarding the enrollment periods I literally posted the section for you to read. If you don't understand what you are reading then read it again. If you don't understand what agencies do then wiki it. I can't sit here and just preach to you on every little thing... EDIT: Just realized btw I gave you the exact citation you need to find the info on the penalty as well. I've actually gone out of my way to HELP you answer these questions you have. To say I'm trying to dodge or confuse issues is retarded. I get it...it's too long and complicated for you. Same for me honestly. So here I am, helping you...sharing resources I have access to that help filter the content of the Act and make is usable... and what do you do? Nothing...you B word at me for helping you....call me a liar and fool... Edited May 15, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/politics-elections/226575-gop-shies-from-healthcare-alternative I am not sure what "The Hill" is, but this is the very scenario that scares me personally about the GOP and Healthcare. The healthcare law, for example, prohibits insurance companies from denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. But that policy is seen as unworkable without an individual mandate, and Republicans acknowledged months ago that they wouldn’t include the non-discrimination policy in a replacement plan If ACA is repealed, healthcare will not be a priority and will go unaddressed for decades more... that is scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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