Brain damage dilemma

[shrader]

1) These players are fully aware of the risks of playing football at this point, and are more than fairly compensated for that risk.

 

 

See, that's just it. No they aren't. If the research is now just starting to put together the long terms risks of head injuries, no player can know exactly what kind of risk they're taking.

[Turbosrrgood]

See, that's just it. No they aren't. If the research is now just starting to put together the long terms risks of head injuries, no player can know exactly what kind of risk they're taking.

 

 

That argument is just wrong IMO. Concussions are not some new thing. They have been around and known for years, and ended the careers of Aikman and Steve Young (who are just fine almost 20 years later by the way) among others. Sure there is ongoing research as to the exact medical damage that's caused, but it's common knowledge that concussions are bad and can cause long lasting damage. It's been common knowledge for years.

 

I remember when Jim Kelly would get hit, they would talk about the possible long term effects of his multiple concussions. That was in the early 90's.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Turbosrrgood

[shrader]

So knowing that something could cause problems but having absolutely no clue what those problems are means the player is informed and knows the risk he's taking? There's a big difference between thinking you might have headache issues the rest of your life vs. what is now starting to come to light.

[DrDawkinstein]

I'll preface my response by saying I like you as a poster, regardless of our disagreement on certain things.

 

Same here, and I'm confident we'll remain e-friends after this thread

 

That being said...

 

I also assume you've never been a parent. If I'm wrong on that, my apologies.

 

That said, this is one of the most condescending posts I've seen around here. Also one of the most ignorant.

 

Perhaps you need to better acquaint yourself with brain injuries. Particularly their effects on small, developing brains before you spout off about 'helicopter parents.' Whether you think it's a legitimate concern or not, there is no need to insult parents who do. Ever speak to a parent who's child suffered severe brain trauma as a result of playing little-league? As a result of a voluntary activity they thought was harmless outside of an occasional broken bone or sprain?

 

I'm sure in your mind, it's just parents contributing to the 'p*ssification of America.' Fine. But until you've walked a mile in the shoes I've described above, you can't know WTF you're talking about on the subject of 'helicopter parents.'

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

No, Im not a parent, but that does not matter. I know how I was raised, and I know how I will (someday) raise my children.

 

The post was a bit condescending, I'll admit. But not ignorant in the least. I grew up around organized sports, specifically football. I've seen plenty of injuries, and as noted, have had plenty of head trauma myself. I also know plenty of people that played multiple contact sports through childhood and never had a serious injury in their life. I can say through vast experience that the frequency of these brain injuries is very low and the long-term effects negligible. Otherwise, we'd already be dealing with entire generations of vegetables.

 

Parents are free to control their kids however they choose. But I believe they are doing their child more harm by keeping them out of sports over such a small risk.

 

I'd never trade the lessons learned about teamwork, leadership, being a good winner and a good loser, pushing yourself to achieve goals when you don't think it's possible, working hard and maintaining a strict schedule, etc... the list of positive character lessons far outweighs the small risk of injury.

 

If parents are worried that much about injury from "voluntary activities" then they need to stop their children from riding their bikes and ever going in a swimming pool again.

 

Every year, about 200 children die from bike related accidents. An estimated 20,000 children suffer a non-fatal brain injury while riding a bike annually. (resource)

 

Fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death for children ages 1 to 14 years (CDC 2005)

 

An estimated 5,000 children ages 14 and under are hospitalized due to unintentional drowning-related incidents each year; 15 percent die in the hospital and as many as 20 percent suffer severe, permanent neurological disability. (National Safety Council)

 

 

So it looks like it's time to stop children from doing anything whatsoever. Put them in front of the TV and let them play video games.

 

Or...

 

 

I disagree with you about the risk of injury is greater in Rugby than American Football. Every sport has some risk. Hell even walking has risk. If you don't want any risk then don't play any sports. Here is where I am different from probably many parents on this board. I think America is ridiculous with how they try to make everything sanitized and risk free. I personally like a little risk, it makes life more exciting. Life is risky, life on this planet always ends in death so no matter how safe you are, your going to die one day anyways. No exceptions.

 

So I have always let my kids play sports that they chose. My daughter rode horses and got thrown off a few times. My son played soccer, football and lacrosse and didn't get injured at all. The only concussion my son received was when a mentally challenged kid who didn't know his own strength and size hit my son over the head with a stick. So if you want to live life in a sterile vacuum let society continue the way it is. Pretty soon everyone will be vacuum sealed in their livingroom living life via machines. Kinda like a few movies and books that have been written on the topic.

 

:worthy:

[CodeMonkey]

Same here, and I'm confident we'll remain e-friends after this thread

 

That being said...

 

 

 

No, Im not a parent, but that does not matter. I know how I was raised, and I know how I will (someday) raise my children.

 

The post was a bit condescending, I'll admit. But not ignorant in the least. I grew up around organized sports, specifically football. I've seen plenty of injuries, and as noted, have had plenty of head trauma myself. I also know plenty of people that played multiple contact sports through childhood and never had a serious injury in their life. I can say through vast experience that the frequency of these brain injuries is very low and the long-term effects negligible. Otherwise, we'd already be dealing with entire generations of vegetables.

 

Parents are free to control their kids however they choose. But I believe they are doing their child more harm by keeping them out of sports over such a small risk.

 

I'd never trade the lessons learned about teamwork, leadership, being a good winner and a good loser, pushing yourself to achieve goals when you don't think it's possible, working hard and maintaining a strict schedule, etc... the list of positive character lessons far outweighs the small risk of injury.

 

If parents are worried that much about injury from "voluntary activities" then they need to stop their children from riding their bikes and ever going in a swimming pool again.

 

Every year, about 200 children die from bike related accidents. An estimated 20,000 children suffer a non-fatal brain injury while riding a bike annually. (resource)

 

Fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death for children ages 1 to 14 years (CDC 2005)

 

An estimated 5,000 children ages 14 and under are hospitalized due to unintentional drowning-related incidents each year; 15 percent die in the hospital and as many as 20 percent suffer severe, permanent neurological disability. (National Safety Council)

 

 

So it looks like it's time to stop children from doing anything whatsoever. Put them in front of the TV and let them play video games.

Bad comparisons. In bike riding and swimming any contact to the head or anywhere else on the body is accidental whereas in tackle football violent contact to the body and to the head is intentional, or at least unavoidable. Additionally your stats are skewed as well. Practically every kid in America rides a bike and/or swims occasionally versus the small number who play tackle football. So your 20.000 and 5,000 numbers for example work out to an extraordinarily small percentage of participants when compared to tackle football head injuries.

 

As far as I'm concerned parents should follow their own conscience when it comes to their children playing football or any other sport. But they should understand the very real risks going in.

Edited May 18, 2012 by CodeMonkey

[K-9]

Same here, and I'm confident we'll remain e-friends after this thread

 

That being said...

 

 

 

No, Im not a parent, but that does not matter. I know how I was raised, and I know how I will (someday) raise my children.

 

The post was a bit condescending, I'll admit. But not ignorant in the least. I grew up around organized sports, specifically football. I've seen plenty of injuries, and as noted, have had plenty of head trauma myself. I also know plenty of people that played multiple contact sports through childhood and never had a serious injury in their life. I can say through vast experience that the frequency of these brain injuries is very low and the long-term effects negligible. Otherwise, we'd already be dealing with entire generations of vegetables.

 

Parents are free to control their kids however they choose. But I believe they are doing their child more harm by keeping them out of sports over such a small risk.

 

I'd never trade the lessons learned about teamwork, leadership, being a good winner and a good loser, pushing yourself to achieve goals when you don't think it's possible, working hard and maintaining a strict schedule, etc... the list of positive character lessons far outweighs the small risk of injury.

 

If parents are worried that much about injury from "voluntary activities" then they need to stop their children from riding their bikes and ever going in a swimming pool again.

 

Every year, about 200 children die from bike related accidents. An estimated 20,000 children suffer a non-fatal brain injury while riding a bike annually. (resource)

 

Fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death for children ages 1 to 14 years (CDC 2005)

 

An estimated 5,000 children ages 14 and under are hospitalized due to unintentional drowning-related incidents each year; 15 percent die in the hospital and as many as 20 percent suffer severe, permanent neurological disability. (National Safety Council)

 

 

So it looks like it's time to stop children from doing anything whatsoever. Put them in front of the TV and let them play video games.

 

I don't find anything to disagree with in this post.

 

Putting kids in front of a TV all day would be worse in many ways. Hell, I think we're halfway there as it is.

 

Yes, kids are hurt in a myriad of ways every day. But football is different in that those low-impact, repetitive collisions are unique to that game alone. Fall off a bike once, see stars and maybe you walk the bike home and recoup. See stars in a football game, sit out a play, and get back in. In both examples a concussive event occurred.

 

It may seem trivial at this time, but as the body of evidence continues to pour in on the effects these injuries have on young, developing brains especially, it's going to give more and more parents pause. Not because they're being unreasonably over-protective but rather because they will have previously unavailable information to inform their decisions.

 

Somebody upthread mentioned the impact it will have on programs getting insured in the future. Litigious factors are simply a reality in a multi-billion dollar business.

 

Add it all up and you have a predictable cultural shift in the game in the future. That and the fact that helmets can't do anything to prevent a concussion are the only two points I've ever tried to make regarding this discussion. The last thing I wanted it to be is a referendum on parenting. But as a parent, I think it's unfair to judge other parents in this regard. There simply isn't a manual for the job. You'll realize that when you have your own.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Fan in San Diego]

I watch a good amount of Rugby over here(UK) and I don't agree that their isn't big hits. Well, I should say it depends on the which Rugby you are playing, is it Rugby Union or League? I'm not sure what they play in the states. Internatinally, Union is what is generally played and this is where big hits DO happen. Also in Union, the Scrums are more important and can be brutal. I've witnessed them. Late hits happen A LOT, especially in the Ruck, players will dive in to go for the ball.

 

League Rugby is more about scoring/speed. There's less players so the game is more spread out. Scrums and big hits don't happen as much.

 

Generally, wrap in tackle is encouraged in all of Rugby. That doesn't mean a 6'8" Scotsman isn't going to lower his shoulder when a smaller winger or fullback is trying to tackle him. His shoulder will most certainly do some damage to the head. Not to mention, Rugby players are the definition of "tough guys." It's almost frowned upon when you come out of the game for an injury. So their isn't nearly as many safety measures in place like the modern NFL.

 

I don't know enough about Rugby to know if it was Union or League. It was a league for high school aged kids so the level of experience and size is different from what you are watching in the UK. Sounds like you are watching adult men play the game or even professional Rugby where the hitting is probably going to be way more physical than what my son participated in.

[TheBrownBear]

I don't find anything to disagree with in this post.

 

Putting kids in front of a TV all day would be worse in many ways. Hell, I think we're halfway there as it is.

 

Yes, kids are hurt in a myriad of ways every day. But football is different in that those low-impact, repetitive collisions are unique to that game alone. Fall off a bike once, see stars and maybe you walk the bike home and recoup. See stars in a football game, sit out a play, and get back in. In both examples a concussive event occurred.

 

It may seem trivial at this time, but as the body of evidence continues to pour in on the effects these injuries have on young, developing brains especially, it's going to give more and more parents pause. Not because they're being unreasonably over-protective but rather because they will have previously unavailable information to inform their decisions.

 

Somebody upthread mentioned the impact it will have on programs getting insured in the future. Litigious factors are simply a reality in a multi-billion dollar business.

 

Add it all up and you have a predictable cultural shift in the game in the future. That and the fact that helmets can't do anything to prevent a concussion are the only two points I've ever tried to make regarding this discussion. The last thing I wanted it to be is a referendum on parenting. But as a parent, I think it's unfair to judge other parents in this regard. There simply isn't a manual for the job. You'll realize that when you have your own.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Great post! As a parent, this just about sums it up. Thank you for this.

[Wayne Cubed]

I don't know enough about Rugby to know if it was Union or League. It was a league for high school aged kids so the level of experience and size is different from what you are watching in the UK. Sounds like you are watching adult men play the game or even professional Rugby where the hitting is probably going to be way more physical than what my son participated in.

I'd be interested to see how Americans play rugby now that I've seen the rugby here. I'm American, so rugby(union) over here was eye opening. When I first moved here, I needed a sport to watch, to get my fix. Soccer(football) is ok, to me it's just not a TV sport. But I watched a couple ruby games here and was instantly hooked. Took me a while to understand what was actually happening, but once I did it was great.

[DrDawkinstein]

I'd be interested to see how Americans play rugby now that I've seen the rugby here. I'm American, so rugby(union) over here was eye opening. When I first moved here, I needed a sport to watch, to get my fix. Soccer(football) is ok, to me it's just not a TV sport. But I watched a couple ruby games here and was instantly hooked. Took me a while to understand what was actually happening, but once I did it was great.

 

For sure! Great sport and fun to follow. Looking forward to watching 7's in the Olympics this year.

 

My favorite saying about Rugby is:

 

"Soccer is a gentlemen's game played by thugs. Rugby is a thug's game played by gentlemen."

[K-9]

For sure! Great sport and fun to follow. Looking forward to watching 7's in the Olympics this year.

 

My favorite saying about Rugby is:

 

"Soccer is a gentlemen's game played by thugs. Rugby is a thug's game played by gentlemen."

 

And Morgan Freeman loves the game, too!

 

GO BILLS!!!

[yungmack]

A lot of the negative positions sound more like they're anti football than a concern about concussions. Even if you eliminate football, it seems to me that most of us have (or will have) a concussion or two sometime in our lives. Unless you want to live in a sanitary bubble, injury is an unavoidable part of being alive.

 

And to those of you who won't let your kids play football out of a fear of concussion, I think you are being waaaaaay too overprotective. The likelihood of of an 8, 9, or 10 year old getting a concussion while playing Pop Warner is probably no more likely -- and maybe less -- than soccer (at least the football players are wearing a helmet). Sure, it can happen but so can your kid slip while running through the house and hitting his head on the coffee table. Or falling on an icy sidewalk. Or running into a tree while playing tag (if kids even play tag anymore). As the kids get older and bigger and faster and stronger, sure, the chance of concussion goes up. But the same is true for hockey, soccer, baseball and just about anything worth doing.

 

To me, the real reason to think very carefully about letting your kids play football has less to do with concussion than with all the other injuries that can come with it, particularly damage to the knees. A high percentage of people I know who played at a decent level through high school have now lived most of their lives with that damage and the pain that comes with it. Those non-concussion injuries also account for the majority of suffering that retired NFL players live with, some of whom are barely even able to walk at all.

[Wayne Cubed]

For sure! Great sport and fun to follow. Looking forward to watching 7's in the Olympics this year.

 

My favorite saying about Rugby is:

 

"Soccer is a gentlemen's game played by thugs. Rugby is a thug's game played by gentlemen."

 

I think the Welsh team, who looked very very good in the 6 Nations, should be a good contender. And the All in Blacks always put out a great team. Should be good.