Seeing is bill-ieving - reality check

[John from Riverside]

After reading through several posts, I can see the annual offseason optimism is in full force. I think as fans of our team, it's great to be enthusiastic, but the love-fest for Buddy & Co is reminiscent of the unearned praise given to Sabres owner Terrance Pegula upon his arrival and following the personnel moves made by the Sabres front office.

 

Sabers fans were already planning the Stanley Cup parade through Lafayette Square. Unfortunately for the team and fans, you have to make the playoffs to have a chance of winning the cup.

 

Again, as is the yearly tradition, Bills fans are ever hopeful and some actually believing the Bills will be a team to be reckoned with in 2012. Maybe they will be, but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Bills fans are the Charlie Browns of NFL fans. We keep attempting to kick the football held by Lucy, believing "this time I'll really kick it".

 

I'm always hearing the words "on paper". The proof is in the pudding. Unless a couple players really step up or there are some surprise breakout players or free agents, the Bills still have weaknesses that teams contending for the Lombardi trophy don't usually have.

 

Wideouts - still need a complimentary receiver for S Johnson.

Linebacking is average at best

Corners - plenty of potential, but still green

O-Line - LT spot still not settled. Don't expect Glenn to step in and be anything more than average as a rookie

QB - Fitz is smart and a team leader. He's still a journeyman QB. When I see one complete season of top tier QB play out of him, I'll be totally on board with him. For now, he's Frank Reich 2.0. - serviceable and able to win some games. Where's our Jim Kelly?

 

If the Bills can stay healthy - and that's a big if - they are probably an 8-10 win team. Does anyone really believe the Bills are capable of winning 12 games or more? The real question to be answered is can they finish strong? (as the Giants did in 2011).

 

"On paper" Nix has done a good job, but to quote the man himself, "show me the baby". I'll reserve my valentine's wishes to Buddy when I'm still watching live Bills games well into January.

 

I could live with 10 games this season

[SouthernMan]

Agree whole Heartedly.

 

 

Sometimes the truth is hard to handle. While we have gotten better at certain spots we are by no means a serious contender. Who knows, maybe these changes are what we neede but the OP made valid points regarding voids in our team. You just dont want to see them.

 

 

No one says they cant but half cant stay healthy the other half cant get off the PS. Getting Stevie in th 7th and having him progress the way he has is 1 in a million. These guys just dont have it.

 

 

 

Really? How about a QB? and consistent play at WR and secondary, the fact that the prior regimes shat the bed means nothing now. You are missing the OPs point AGAIN. He is simply pointing out obvious defficiencies that I am sure all teams share. Why is this so hard to comprehend? I Want this team to win just as much as the next guy and argue with friends and football fans to the bitter end. This team is definetly better on paper lets see if it translates to the field.

 

Thank goodness somebody using this forum can write intelligently and understand my OP without immediately getting defensive.

 

To all of you who think the post was trolling or some other provocative action - it wasn't. I was simply attempting to say, hey, before we anoint Buddy and Co as the next messiahs, let's see some results. What's so hard about understanding that? I didn't say "the Bills suck, Buddy Nix sucks" or anything that could remotely be misconstrued as bating. I didn't say don't be excited about the coming season.

 

Personally, I'm just not ready to pour my soul into it again, only to be burned by a team that again may fall short and has nothing but a barrel full of excuses to show for it.

 

I think a forum (or any discussion for that matter) is most interesting when different points of view are explored, considered intelligently, and discussed in a civil manner. Unfortunately, the built-in Buffalo paranoia and defense mechanism has kicked in with most of the responders to my OP.

 

Gee, sorry I didn't agree with you that we should be washing the feet of Buddy Nix. It seems at TSW if you're not towing the company line and being a synchophant for the opinions and nitwits who live at this site, you're deserving of name calling and other childish accusations.

 

My statement is simple: in theory you have all the players you need be a respectable team that should be fighting for a playoff spot or winning the division. So, go ahead - show me. When I'm setting my DVR in January to record a Bills playoff game, I'll stop questioning.

 

Show me the f ing baby!

Edited July 31, 2012 by SouthernMan

[PromoTheRobot]

Show me the f ing baby!

The "baby" ain't going to be born before Sept. 9 so asking to see the baby now is kind of stupid. How about looking at the nice sonograms for now?

 

PTR

[Malazan]

Did you even use the search function, original poster? Did you really need to feel special and start another thread on the topic?

[John from Riverside]

Isn't talent what we're really looking for? Who is to say, definitively, that a talented #2 won't emerge from the group that includes Easley, Jones, Graham, Hagan, Roosevelt, and Aiken?

 

Here is the thing

 

I think the OP is trying to say that we need every single talented quality player at every position in order to win.....the fact is we dont.

 

Lets talk about what we do have

 

- We know that we have a number 1 receiver....I dont exactly know where Stevie ranks.....but 1000 yards and 10 touchdowns (or somethign like that) the last two years (which is the years he has been starting)......check that box off

 

- Running back tandem.....we not only have a RB that was putting up Adrian Peterson numbers.....but when he went down his backup put up some very good numbers himself......running game.....check that box off

 

- Im not ready to mark the OL check box off yet.....because Glenn and Hairston have to prove they can do it.....Wood needs to make it back......BUT I think that it is fair to say that from Guard to Guard on the line we are at the very least SOLID.

 

- BUT....and in relation to the previous point....we have a QB that gets rid of the ball quick....which helps the OL along.....should Hairston and Glenn pan out and should Wood make it all the way back.......you will see more downfield stuff

 

ALL in ALL? When healthy this offense was dynamic last year.....only when injuries started mounting did performance go down.....and now they appear to have biult some depth at the OL positions. GOOD ENOUGH

 

 

Now on the defensive side of the ball

 

- Before we talk about the talent....lets talk about the coaching. Edwards was IN OVER HIS HEAD....the playcalling was horrible......he made players worse not better. Now he is gone and in comes a DC who has been successfull as a DC EVERYWHERE HE HAS BEEN....not only is stash good he is CONSISTANTLY good. Will it help him that the bills went shopping and put out a spread of new groceries? Certainly....but in truth I believe he could have taken last years squad and done better with it simply by not trying to make 300 pound DE's into linebackers!

 

- Our LB's are NOT average at best.....they are decent. Not a pro bowler amongst them but HOW DO YOU EXPECT THAT WITH NO PASS RUSH. Lets see how this group fairs with QB's running for their lives without having to blitz from the LB position.

 

- When you talk about secondary being green....you have to include the safeties which most certainly are not......the secondary is young and talented with veterans mixed in amoungst them in Byrd and Wilson.....2nd year guys will be a year better in Searcy, Rogers, Williams, etc etc\

 

- Oh then there is the DL.....which could field a starting unit out of its BACKUPS this year....this is what makes everything tick in the 4-3.....Nix knows it...Stash knows it....and they addressed it with the 100 million dollar contract......10 plus sack monster that Maybin should have been.....Marcel will be a year better.....and of course the return of Kyle Williams

 

 

 

Its the perfect storm of returning quality players.....better coaching....and solid drafts by Buddy Nix. Yes they STILL need to prove it on the field but lets face it...the team has turned into having Kelsay as your best DE into players pushing him off the field......same with McKelvin......etc etc

 

There is definately reason for optomism.....and I predict that one of those wide receivers bunched togeter WILL distinguish himself through all of this and emerge.

[Alphadawg7]

If the Bills can stay healthy - and that's a big if - they are probably an 8-10 win team. Does anyone really believe the Bills are capable of winning 12 games or more?

 

To answer your question, YES, I very much think this team can win 12 games. Will they is a different story, but the talent is there. As far as your injury comment, that is true for EVERY team in the league. So throw that out and assume we stay realtively healthy...then yes I absolutely think this team...scratch that...I absolutely KNOW that this team is capable of a 12 win season in terms of overall talent. We still need to play the games of course, but to say we are just an 8-10 win team is a bit silly.

 

Lets address your concerns here...

 

Corners - Yes they are young which means they are relatively green overall. That being said, Gilmore is very talented and already impressing with his skills and ability to to pick up the playbook. Most importantly though is the front 7. Our guys upfront are going to help make up for a lot of the learning curve of our younger DB's. Not to mention, we have two very smart and talented safeties out there backing them up.

 

Linebackers - Average at best? This group is better than you think. Barnett and Sheppard are going to be a force, we have young guys coming off the bench with a load of potential, Morrison should find his form again this year on this revamped D, and I think Merriman is going to mix in between here and DE to bring some pass rush as an added bonus.

 

OL - Also not nearly as bad as you think. Glenn is going to be a welcomed addition to an already underrated line. This is the area where injury concern does come into play given how many we had last year. However, we have way more depth, a lot of good young talent, and an offense that can help offset short comings on the line when necessary. This group is going to just keep getting better.

 

QB - I have been as critical of Fitz as anyone, but this team now is built in a way that can help offset some of his flaws. For instance, our defense is going to be vastly improved allowing us to not be in so many come from behind situations or get way down. And with CJ's emergence, we are going to get both FJ and CJ heavily involved in the ground game...more touches are needed now and should better utilize our run game taking a lot of the pressure off Fitz. With better mechanics and not so much of a need to press or force throws that are too difficult for him, he can make better decisions and we can control the ball more.

 

2nd WR - Our WR talent is better than people think. Some people look at them and say we have a problem because there is no identified #2 WR yet. Well, has anyone considered that is not a bad thing? Maybe we don't have one yet because we have SEVERAL guys who can handle the job and letting the competition play out to find the best choice. Just because we don't know who it will be yet does not mean we don't have one. Easley is going to surprise some people, TJ is going to really surprise some people, and we have several other guys who can come in and contribute. Our WR's are not as bad as people think. Just because they don't have big names (yet) does not mean that can't do the job. In fact, several of them have been very impressive early already. Not to mention, Spiller is going to be an additional dangerous receiving weapon out of the backfield.

 

So all in all, while your concerns are valid, I think you are overly pessimistic and if you look at the true talent its there and its there to make a push this year for a playoff run. I still do not think we will win the division as I can see NE still winning potentially 14 games, but I certainly see us as a double digit win team and can see us winning as many as 12 games. By playoff time, we are going to be a team no one wants to face, especially NE with our defensive front giving them nothing but nightmares.

[SouthernMan]

The "baby" ain't going to be born before Sept. 9 so asking to see the baby now is kind of stupid. How about looking at the nice sonograms for now?

 

PTR

 

 

THAT'S MY POINT EXACTLY!!!! Nobody's throwing birthday parties with pony rides and clowns for a blurry black & white image of a half tadpole, half human, 120 days after conception.

 

I'll try one last time to make the point, and then I give up....

 

I'm as optimistic as y'all, but I'm not ready to heap unconditional praise on a GM that has yet to achieve the desired results. Th people in Pittsburgh, NY Giants, et al have earned that level of respect through results. When he does, I'll be right there with you full of Bills pride.

 

God help me if I should disagree with one of you full time TSW geeks.

[PromoTheRobot]

THAT'S MY POINT EXACTLY!!!! Nobody's throwing birthday parties with pony rides and clowns for a blurry black & white image of a half tadpole, half human, 120 days after conception.

 

I'll try one last time to make the point, and then I give up....

 

I'm as optimistic as y'all, but I'm not ready to heap unconditional praise on a GM that has yet to achieve the desired results. Th people in Pittsburgh, NY Giants, et al have earned that level of respect through results. When he does, I'll be right there with you full of Bills pride.

 

God help me if I should disagree with one of you full time TSW geeks.

There are always a million reasons for pessimism but not a single reason for optimism? I guess that passes for "reality" around here.

 

PTR

[John from Riverside]

THAT'S MY POINT EXACTLY!!!! Nobody's throwing birthday parties with pony rides and clowns for a blurry black & white image of a half tadpole, half human, 120 days after conception.

 

I'll try one last time to make the point, and then I give up....

 

I'm as optimistic as y'all, but I'm not ready to heap unconditional praise on a GM that has yet to achieve the desired results. Th people in Pittsburgh, NY Giants, et al have earned that level of respect through results. When he does, I'll be right there with you full of Bills pride.

 

God help me if I should disagree with one of you full time TSW geeks.

 

 

What would you rather talk about at this point in the season? Should they just shut down the wall till they prove something?

[BuffaloBaumer]

After reading through several posts, I can see the annual offseason optimism is in full force. I think as fans of our team, it's great to be enthusiastic, but the love-fest for Buddy & Co is reminiscent of the unearned praise given to Sabres owner Terrance Pegula upon his arrival and following the personnel moves made by the Sabres front office.

 

Sabers fans were already planning the Stanley Cup parade through Lafayette Square. Unfortunately for the team and fans, you have to make the playoffs to have a chance of winning the cup.

 

Again, as is the yearly tradition, Bills fans are ever hopeful and some actually believing the Bills will be a team to be reckoned with in 2012. Maybe they will be, but I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Bills fans are the Charlie Browns of NFL fans. We keep attempting to kick the football held by Lucy, believing "this time I'll really kick it".

 

I'm always hearing the words "on paper". The proof is in the pudding. Unless a couple players really step up or there are some surprise breakout players or free agents, the Bills still have weaknesses that teams contending for the Lombardi trophy don't usually have.

 

Wideouts - still need a complimentary receiver for S Johnson.

Linebacking is average at best

Corners - plenty of potential, but still green

O-Line - LT spot still not settled. Don't expect Glenn to step in and be anything more than average as a rookie

QB - Fitz is smart and a team leader. He's still a journeyman QB. When I see one complete season of top tier QB play out of him, I'll be totally on board with him. For now, he's Frank Reich 2.0. - serviceable and able to win some games. Where's our Jim Kelly?

 

If the Bills can stay healthy - and that's a big if - they are probably an 8-10 win team. Does anyone really believe the Bills are capable of winning 12 games or more? The real question to be answered is can they finish strong? (as the Giants did in 2011).

 

"On paper" Nix has done a good job, but to quote the man himself, "show me the baby". I'll reserve my valentine's wishes to Buddy when I'm still watching live Bills games well into January.

 

For the love of.....It's SABRES not SABERS

[CodeMonkey]

To the OP ... optimism in any form is enjoyed here. Even if it is only speculative and unbounded. Most here, probably you as well, feel the Bills had a good off season on paper. That alone is reason enough for unbridled optimism and assumptions of playoffs etc here. Perceived pessimism in any form, including but not limited to trying to ground the optimism in any way, is generally met defensively. That's just the way it is.

 

Until the season starts and we can really see what the Bills have got this season, there is only how they look on paper and how they look running half speed drills at camp. Bills fans have suffered though 12 horrific seasons in a row. Certainly there is no harm in a little giddy love fest waiting for Sept. to roll around

Edited July 31, 2012 by CodeMonkey

[DrDawkinstein]

THAT'S MY POINT EXACTLY!!!! Nobody's throwing birthday parties with pony rides and clowns for a blurry black & white image of a half tadpole, half human, 120 days after conception.

 

I'll try one last time to make the point, and then I give up....

 

I'm as optimistic as y'all, but I'm not ready to heap unconditional praise on a GM that has yet to achieve the desired results. Th people in Pittsburgh, NY Giants, et al have earned that level of respect through results. When he does, I'll be right there with you full of Bills pride.

 

God help me if I should disagree with one of you full time TSW geeks.

 

I understand what you are saying, I dont blame anyone for taking a wait-and-see approach with this team. However, I think you are missing the fact that the GM does not play the games. He only builds the team.

 

While Forte holds out in Chicago, and MJD holds out in Jacksonville, Buddy signed our MVP Running Back to a new extension to keep him happy. Just as the fans wished as well. Not to mention previous extensions for guys like Kyle Williams, Fitz, and Pears.

 

While past GMs let our star players walk, Buddy got Stevie signed before FA started. And to a much cheaper deal than what WRs went for in the market. He also re-signed our best TE, Chandler, after his break out year.

 

While the Bills have been stagnant in Free Agency in the past, Buddy went out and got the best player in FA who also happens to be at the position of our biggest need, in Mario Williams. He also went out and got the 2nd best DE in FA with Mark Anderson.

 

He then followed this up with a great draft. A solid CB prospect, a 1st round-graded LT in the 2nd, etc.

 

As far as Im concerned, this GM HAS achieved the desired results that can be expected of a GM.

 

It's not up to Buddy to play the games. All he can do is build the best team possible, on paper. And that is exactly what he has done.

 

So I dont think the praise for Buddy is unfounded or out of line. Again, you dont have to throw him a parade. But at least acknowledge he is doing what we have all wanted past GMs to do.

Edited July 31, 2012 by DrDareustein

[SouthernMan]

There are always a million reasons for pessimism but not a single reason for optimism? I guess that passes for "reality" around here.

 

PTR

 

 

I'M NOT PESSIMISTIC!!!! ON THE CONTRARY!!

 

 

 

Fact: Buddy has not accomplished his goal as an NFL GM.

Fact # 2: A large portion of posters at TSW fawn over him as if he's brought multiple Lombardi trophies to WNY.

 

If I were a public school teacher, I wouldn't give a student an A+ just for showing up with sharpened pencils and being able to recite Ozymandias by heart. They'd have to pass the exam with enough correctly answered question to earn the A+.

 

When Buddy's actions in the offseason result in an A+ (being competitive in the NFL playoffs)I'll give him my "not worthy" bows as so many have you have already done.

 

ps - Promo, always respected your points of view, but think maybe you been in that tin can too long.

[eball]

I'M NOT PESSIMISTIC!!!! ON THE CONTRARY!!

 

 

 

Fact: Buddy has not accomplished his goal as an NFL GM.

Fact # 2: A large portion of posters at TSW fawn over him as if he's brought multiple Lombardi trophies to WNY.

 

If I were a public school teacher, I wouldn't give a student an A+ just for showing up with sharpened pencils and being able to recite Ozymandias by heart. They'd have to pass the exam with enough correctly answered question to earn the A+.

 

When Buddy's actions in the offseason result in an A+ (being competitive in the NFL playoffs)I'll give him my "not worthy" bows as so many have you have already done.

 

ps - Promo, always respected your points of view, but think maybe you been in that tin can too long.

I understand what you're saying here, but preparing for success does deserve recognition and praise. Comparing the talent level of the Buffalo Bills when Nix arrived, and currently, is like comparing night and day. Buddy can't play the games, but he has assembled a collection of players who, on paper, appear poised to bring the Bills back to relevance.

 

We will ALL be terribly disappointed if the results don't show themselves on the field, but that doesn't take away from the unbounded optimism most of us feel right now. It was quite possibly the best offseason for talent acquisition in Bills history.

[Lurker]

God help me if I should disagree with one of you full time TSW geeks.

Not to be snide, but what did you expect by your OP--to be told how right you are?

 

If so, I bet you also like yelling "Fire!" in theaters or cross-dressing at Chick-a-Fil...

[BillsVet]

Ladies and gentlemen, TSW's **** cloud has returned, and it looms lower than ever!

 

Firing George Edwards, bad.

Designing a scheme to fit our current talent, then getting the best talent available to plug in, also bad.

We have one outstanding receiver, a handful of situational receivers, a receiving threat at tight end and two dynamite backs, "personnel challenges"

Couldn't do it last year, won't do it this year (easy schedule bedamned).

 

Oh, boy. You never fail to deliver!

 

At this point, I'm convinced this is some drawn-out performance piece.

 

Now here is the civility which has driven plenty of knowledgeable posters away. You can pat yourself on the back for being wrong more often than not, yet still have the audacity to keep coming back and acting like a total d-bag. Congratulations.

 

This board is worse with you on it. Not every Bills fan has to be a massive homer to post here. Stay classy.

[BUFFALOTONE]

Here is the thing

 

I think the OP is trying to say that we need every single talented quality player at every position in order to win.....the fact is we dont.

 

Lets talk about what we do have

 

- We know that we have a number 1 receiver....I dont exactly know where Stevie ranks.....but 1000 yards and 10 touchdowns (or somethign like that) the last two years (which is the years he has been starting)......check that box off

 

- Running back tandem.....we not only have a RB that was putting up Adrian Peterson numbers.....but when he went down his backup put up some very good numbers himself......running game.....check that box off

 

- Im not ready to mark the OL check box off yet.....because Glenn and Hairston have to prove they can do it.....Wood needs to make it back......BUT I think that it is fair to say that from Guard to Guard on the line we are at the very least SOLID.

 

- BUT....and in relation to the previous point....we have a QB that gets rid of the ball quick....which helps the OL along.....should Hairston and Glenn pan out and should Wood make it all the way back.......you will see more downfield stuff

 

ALL in ALL? When healthy this offense was dynamic last year.....only when injuries started mounting did performance go down.....and now they appear to have biult some depth at the OL positions. GOOD ENOUGH

 

 

Now on the defensive side of the ball

 

- Before we talk about the talent....lets talk about the coaching. Edwards was IN OVER HIS HEAD....the playcalling was horrible......he made players worse not better. Now he is gone and in comes a DC who has been successfull as a DC EVERYWHERE HE HAS BEEN....not only is stash good he is CONSISTANTLY good. Will it help him that the bills went shopping and put out a spread of new groceries? Certainly....but in truth I believe he could have taken last years squad and done better with it simply by not trying to make 300 pound DE's into linebackers!

 

- Our LB's are NOT average at best.....they are decent. Not a pro bowler amongst them but HOW DO YOU EXPECT THAT WITH NO PASS RUSH. Lets see how this group fairs with QB's running for their lives without having to blitz from the LB position.

 

- When you talk about secondary being green....you have to include the safeties which most certainly are not......the secondary is young and talented with veterans mixed in amoungst them in Byrd and Wilson.....2nd year guys will be a year better in Searcy, Rogers, Williams, etc etc\

 

- Oh then there is the DL.....which could field a starting unit out of its BACKUPS this year....this is what makes everything tick in the 4-3.....Nix knows it...Stash knows it....and they addressed it with the 100 million dollar contract......10 plus sack monster that Maybin should have been.....Marcel will be a year better.....and of course the return of Kyle Williams

 

 

 

Its the perfect storm of returning quality players.....better coaching....and solid drafts by Buddy Nix. Yes they STILL need to prove it on the field but lets face it...the team has turned into having Kelsay as your best DE into players pushing him off the field......same with McKelvin......etc etc

 

There is definately reason for optomism.....and I predict that one of those wide receivers bunched togeter WILL distinguish himself through all of this and emerge.

 

How is the high lighted not Chan and Buddy's fault. Granted they saw the problem and addressed in but it was still a problem they created that set us back!

Edited July 31, 2012 by BUFFALOTONE

[Like A Mofo]

Sabers fans

 

 

Not sure who the Sabers are

[DrDawkinstein]

How is the high lighted not Chan and Buddy's fault. Granted they saw the problem and addressed in but it was still a problem they created that set us back!

 

Please name me one GM or HC that has made 100% perfect decisions across their career.

 

No one is saying they were perfect, but give the guys a break! Furthermore, Wanny wasnt even available when they hired Edwards as he was still in Pittsburgh.

 

I get that it has been a long time since the Bills gave us fans something to be happy about, but nothing and no one is 100% perfect.

 

Even Super Bowl teams have problems from imperfect decisions. Such is life. Such is the universe.

 

They took a chance on a guy, as successful coach has had to start somewhere, and it didnt work out. So they addressed it (fairly quickly, I might add), and moved on.

[uncle flap]

 

They took a chance on a guy, as successful coach has had to start somewhere, and it didnt work out. So they addressed it (fairly quickly, I might add), and moved on.

 

Not to mention it wasn't like proven DCs were flooding the in-box with applications!