Jags release Drew Colemen - would be a good pickup for the Bills

[dogma+]

If a team devoid of talent like the Jags can't use him then why would he fit in here when we are suddenly very deep at DB?

 

Who do you cut? We already got rid of Florence.

 

This is a common misconception by fans. "If such and such team couldn't use him, how could we?" It's a logical fallacy. Different teams have different needs. And teams often make mistakes in releasing players. Think about this:

 

If the Bills couldn't use him, why would the Vikings want Pat Williams and Antoine Winfield?

If the Colts couldn't use him, why would the Broncos want Peyton Manning?

If the Texans couldn't use him, why would the Bills want Mario Williams?

If the Falcons couldn't use him, why would the Packers want to trade for Brett Favre?

If the Chiefs couldn't use him, why would the Falcons want Tony Gonzalez?

If the Bills couldn't use him, why would the Saints want Jabari Greer?

If the Chiefs couldn't use him, why would the Vikins want Jared Allen?

 

Different teams have different needs. Being deep at a position does not mean we are good at a position. The Dolphins are "deep" at QB, but they're not very good.

 

I honestly have no idea who Drew Coleman is...

 

I'm not surprised.

 

Lol So I am not the only buying the I used to be a scout line. Oh well, seems like a decent poster except for that (time will tell).

 

Technically I wasn't the scout. I was an assistant to my father who was a BLESTO scout.

 

I googled dogma football scout 20 different ways without any hits

 

LOL.

Edited May 4, 2012 by dogma+

[Captain Caveman]

Technically I wasn't the scout. I was an assistant to my father who was a BLESTO scout.

 

Yes, but what kind of car do you drive?

[stony]

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my assessment or ideas. In fact, I like conversations in which people grow and learn from each others experiences. But his post was not meant in good faith. It was condescending and insulting.

 

You are right though. Drew would be a luxury. I wouldn't be surprised if the Jets re-signed him.

 

 

 

Look at his post. I copied his condescending smilies.

 

It probably had something to do with the fact you compared him to Leodis. Not the way to inspire confidence.

[The Tomcat]

Technically I wasn't the scout. I was an assistant to my father who was a BLESTO scout.

 

 

I don't mind the should we sign this guy threads if there is rhyme or reason behind it which I think

you've made a good case for it.

[atlbillsfan1975]

It sound slike you described Ron Brooks in your initial evaluation OP.

And to be honest the Bills have a glut on CB right now. Wanny's 4-3 does not call for many cb blitzes.

 

The only position i would like to hear about pickin gup right now is LB. I think that is still a bit of a 'weak' area.

 

Or if Brees can not get a deal done! lol

[dogma+]

I don't mind the should we sign this guy threads if there is rhyme or reason behind it which I think

you've made a good case for it.

 

Thank you.

 

It sound slike you described Ron Brooks in your initial evaluation OP.

And to be honest the Bills have a glut on CB right now. Wanny's 4-3 does not call for many cb blitzes.

 

The only position i would like to hear about pickin gup right now is LB. I think that is still a bit of a 'weak' area.

 

Or if Brees can not get a deal done! lol

 

I don't think Ron will be an effective blitzer in the NFL. I hope i'm wrong.

 

If you watch Brooks tape, you will see why people have categorized him as a soft player. The reason is that whenever he is going up against adequately larger than him, he doesn't bring the same tenacity as he does against the smaller guys. YouTube highlight reels show just that - highlights. And even in those you can see that the majority of his big hits were against receivers and RB's of his size. In the NFL, the average QB is around 6 foot 4 and over 210 pounds. That's why in college you see a lot more thundering QB sacks than you do in the pro's.

 

Secondly, in the pro's you're most often not going to show that your blitzing your DB in a man-man formation as you do in college. You're going to be pulling DB's back, zoning the QB, and blitzing hard off the end. This creates a problem for many college blitzers who try to transition their game to the pro's. In college, pure speed would get you there. In the pro's, this technique not only gives the blitzing CB 5 more yards to cover but he also has to beat a much faster and more agile tackle or blocking RB.

 

Last but not least, if you look at the best blitzing cornerbacks in the NFL, you see a pattern. They're mostly bigger guys. Adrian Wilson, probably the best pure blitzing DB of the mid 2000's is 6 foot 3, 230 pounds. Charles Woodson 6 foot 1, 205 pounds. Eric Berry 6 foot 212 pounds. There are the rare player like Coleman who are smaller and turn out to be good blitzers, but they're the exception - not the norm. In case you're wondering, Brooks is 5'10, 190 pounds.

[Dat Dude]

To save some people a lookup: Drew Coleman is a CB who played only 1 year with the Jags and the previous 5 with the Jets. Nickle only type player. Seems like a better player than Corner, and better run support, but can't play outside.

 

I think we're pretty deep at CB right now, and we'll probably have to cut a good player. Well, since I'm rooting for McKelvin to be cut "Good" is in quotes.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Thank you.

 

 

 

I don't think Ron will be an effective blitzer in the NFL. I hope i'm wrong.

 

If you watch Brooks tape, you will see why people have categorized him as a soft player. The reason is that whenever he is going up against adequately larger than him, he doesn't bring the same tenacity as he does against the smaller guys. YouTube highlight reels show just that - highlights. And even in those you can see that the majority of his big hits were against receivers and RB's of his size. In the NFL, the average QB is around 6 foot 4 and over 210 pounds. That's why in college you see a lot more thundering QB sacks than you do in the pro's.

 

Secondly, in the pro's you're most often not going to show that your blitzing your DB in a man-man formation as you do in college. You're going to be pulling DB's back, zoning the QB, and blitzing hard off the end. This creates a problem for many college blitzers who try to transition their game to the pro's. In college, pure speed would get you there. In the pro's, this technique not only gives the blitzing CB 5 more yards to cover but he also has to beat a much faster and more agile tackle or blocking RB.

 

Last but not least, if you look at the best blitzing cornerbacks in the NFL, you see a pattern. They're mostly bigger guys. Adrian Wilson, probably the best pure blitzing DB of the mid 2000's is 6 foot 3, 230 pounds. Charles Woodson 6 foot 1, 205 pounds. Eric Berry 6 foot 212 pounds. There are the rare player like Coleman who are smaller and turn out to be good blitzers, but they're the exception - not the norm. In case you're wondering, Brooks is 5'10, 190 pounds.

Great analysis on CB blitzing. Is this the main reason you think Coleman would be a good fit? I ask because a few months back a poster here put up a comprehensive playbook for the 4-3 as written by Wanny. Very good read. His interpretation and thus version relies on your front four causing pressure. He does not really consider Blitzing a necessary device. For this reason i do not think a DB who is a specialist in blitzing is worth it. We have good young guys that need some time to grow. We have a vet in McGee to provide leadership, and McKelvin who has the speed and talent. McKelvin to this point has lacked the discipline to be the shutdown corner the bills hoped for,

[T master]

The Jags just released Drew Colemen and his $7 million contract. If willing to sign for a reasonable amount, Coleman would be a very good pick up. He is serviceable in pass coverage, but his true skill is in what he brings to the run defense and pass rush. He is a fast player, and a sure tackler. He has a good punch on the ball carrier, and has accumulated 8 forced fumbles in the last two seasons. Approximately a quarter of his blitzes result in sacks.

 

Coleman was top 10 in the NFL in "stops" in 2010 according to Football Outsiders. "Stops" are defined as "The total number of plays by a defensive player that prevent a successful play by the offense, defined as 45% of needed yards on first down, 60% of needed yards on second down, and 100% of needed yards on third or fourth down. In general, "plays" refers to tackles, passes defensed, fumbles forced, or interceptions. The exception is when discussing pass defense data from the FO game charting project, in which case "plays" refers to all charted passes with the given player as the listed defender."

 

In pass coverage, think of McKelvin. In run defense, think of Antoine Winfield. In pass rush, think a slightly softer Adrian Wilson.

 

For the right price, the Bills could bring him in to play obvious rushing downs and pass rush situations. But I'm afraid that there will be plenty of teams interested in his services and his price is going to be a little too much for us and what we would use him for.

 

We just cut Flo to give the young blood a chance to participate & grow in this D , not to mention to add a bit of space to this years cap . They have saved 4 mil this year from Flo being cut so i ask you this ..

 

WHY THE HECK WITH TAKING A CB IN THE FIRST ROUND AT 10 & ANOTHER IN LATER ROUNDS PLUS ONE IN THE SECOND ROUND LAST YEAR WOULD THEY BRING IN ANOTHER VETERAN THAT HIS CONTRACT THIS YEAR IS DOUBLE THE GUY THEY JUST CUT ?? :wallbash:

 

I think there is a chance that Mcgee might not make the roster too with all the young guys . What are you thinking ??

Edited May 4, 2012 by T master

[dogma+]

We just cut Flo to give the young blood a chance to participate & grow in this D , not to mention to add a bit of space to this years cap . They have saved 4 mil this year from Flo being cut so i ask you this ..

 

WHY THE HECK WITH TAKING A CB IN THE FIRST ROUND AT 10 & ANOTHER IN LATER ROUNDS PLUS ONE IN THE SECOND ROUND LAST YEAR WOULD THEY BRING IN ANOTHER VETERAN THAT HIS CONTRACT THIS YEAR IS DOUBLE THE GUY THEY JUST CUT ?? :wallbash:

 

I think there is a chance that Mcgee might not make the roster too with all the young guys . What are you thinking ??

 

#1) This thread was started 2 days before Florence was cut. Just because you recently got to the party does not mean that the party just started.

 

#2) People like you make the mistake of thinking we already have X amount of Y position and therefore we shouldn'tnt sign another Y. Proffesional teams do not think that way. They look at any player that holds the ability to improve their team. There are starters, depth, and situational players. All are needed on some capacity to be a successful team. For what it's worth, I don't see Brooks transitioning to be a quality blitzer in the NFL.

 

#3) We don't have a single quality blitzing CB on our roster. Not a one. The NFL is not just about the amount of each position you have. It's about skill and situational match ups.

 

Great analysis on CB blitzing. Is this the main reason you think Coleman would be a good fit? I ask because a few months back a poster here put up a comprehensive playbook for the 4-3 as written by Wanny. Very good read. His interpretation and thus version relies on your front four causing pressure. He does not really consider Blitzing a necessary device. For this reason i do not think a DB who is a specialist in blitzing is worth it. We have good young guys that need some time to grow. We have a vet in McGee to provide leadership, and McKelvin who has the speed and talent. McKelvin to this point has lacked the discipline to be the shutdown corner the bills hoped for,

 

I haven't seen the playbook in question, but I assure you that there is not a coach in the NFL who doesn't blitz CB's.

[FreakPop]

 

Technically I wasn't the scout. I was an assistant to my father who was a BLESTO scout.

 

 

 

.......and i stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night......

[3rdand12]

This season will be full of opportunities to bring a corner and it will be a part of our success. Because we expect to win the one on ones at the line does not mean we wont overload. And although we will have a run and pass rush that can dominate the matchups, it's wise on occasion to find the weakest spot to bring a secondary blitzer to scare the bejeesus out of the runner or the QB.

Vital to keep most offenses defending our defense. We just could not beat our man at the line much last year. This year we will be securing him or running right over him and that is the key to succeeding with a corner blitz. I

do not think we need another player at that price right now. Let's wait and see what we have. Next year we get into the finer details of world domination. Now where the hell is that ether Dr. ?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think that with Brown's athleticism and knack for big plays (a developed timing instinct?), he could be a great blitzing cornerback.

 

And FWIW, the cornerback with the most career sacks, Ronde Barber (27 sacks) is listed at 5'10" and 184 pounds.

[Canks]

Dogma lived out his dream today. Now it's back to the real world where he is wrong all the time. The Bills should have traded Florence for someone better than him instead of cutting him

 

Trust me, I used to work at a pregnancy clinic and we were right 99% of the time.

[dogma+]

I think that with Brown's athleticism and knack for big plays (a developed timing instinct?), he could be a great blitzing cornerback.

 

Who is Brown?

 

And FWIW, the cornerback with the most career sacks, Ronde Barber (27 sacks) is listed at 5'10" and 184 pounds.

 

And Drew Brees is 6'0. That doesn't mean the rest of the league isn't filled with QB's who are 6'4 and taller. There is always an exception to the rule, as I stated in my original post. There have actually been many smaller CB's who have turned out to be good blitzers. But the majority are bigger.

 

Dogma lived out his dream today. Now it's back to the real world where he is wrong all the time. The Bills should have traded Florence for someone better than him instead of cutting him

 

Trust me, I used to work at a pregnancy clinic and we were right 99% of the time.

 

 

The majority of fans are very ignorant people. I am responsible for what I write, not what you understand. There is a reason why Marv Levy said "If you listen to the fans, eventually you wind up sitting next to them."

Edited May 5, 2012 by dogma+

[atlbillsfan1975]

#1) This thread was started 2 days before Florence was cut. Just because you recently got to the party does not mean that the party just started.

 

#2) People like you make the mistake of thinking we already have X amount of Y position and therefore we shouldn'tnt sign another Y. Proffesional teams do not think that way. They look at any player that holds the ability to improve their team. There are starters, depth, and situational players. All are needed on some capacity to be a successful team. For what it's worth, I don't see Brooks transitioning to be a quality blitzer in the NFL.

 

#3) We don't have a single quality blitzing CB on our roster. Not a one. The NFL is not just about the amount of each position you have. It's about skill and situational match ups.

 

 

 

I haven't seen the playbook in question, but I assure you that there is not a coach in the NFL who doesn't blitz CB's.

You are sure of that?? I do not remember seeing one from our CB's last year. I am sure someone can provide footage?

I remember Wilson on some. But he was at safety.

My point is lets say the Bills blitz the CB 5x an entire year. Colemen does not sound any better to me then what we have already on our roster for coverage. So he would be a waste of a spot on the roster. In fact the young guys could prove to be much better cover men then Colemen, but their playing time hampered by his presence. So i say no thanks to him. Let stick with what we have.

[Fan in San Diego]

Who are you? What are your credentials? How much experience do you have scouting players? What film have you watched of Drew?

 

Oh whats that? None? You're just assuming that I pulled a name out of a hat and said "hey! lets sign him". Not thinking about the fact that I scouted him coming out of college, and have followed his career. Ive watched his game film. Have you?

 

Next time you decide to act like a tough guy, perhaps you should try picking on someone who wasn't a professional scout for many years. I've forgotten more about the game of Football than you have ever known.

 

:worthy: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Really, who did you scout for?

[dogma+]

You are sure of that?? I do not remember seeing one from our CB's last year. I am sure someone can provide footage?

 

Absolutely positive. Bryan Scott blitzed from the Nickel almost exclusively. The only time he blitzed from Safety is when he was pulled up in run support.

 

McKelvin was 0/2 on blitzes and he only played 9 games I believe.

 

My point is lets say the Bills blitz the CB 5x an entire year. Colemen does not sound any better to me then what we have already on our roster for coverage. So he would be a waste of a spot on the roster. In fact the young guys could prove to be much better cover men then Colemen, but their playing time hampered by his presence. So i say no thanks to him. Let stick with what we have.

 

If the Bills blitz their corners only 5 times in a season, were in for more trouble than anyone knows. Part of blitzing a corner is not just to sack the QB, but to keep the tackles honest.

 

Really, who did you scout for?

 

I was an assistant to my father who was a BLESTO scout for the majority of his career in the NFL. He worked with Jack Butler (former steeler, now the head of the combine) for many years.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I think that with Brown's athleticism and knack for big plays (a developed timing instinct?), he could be a great blitzing cornerback.

 

And FWIW, the cornerback with the most career sacks, Ronde Barber (27 sacks) is listed at 5'10" and 184 pounds.

 

Who is Brown?

 

 

 

And Drew Brees is 6'0. That doesn't mean the rest of the league isn't filled with QB's who are 6'4 and taller. There is always an exception to the rule, as I stated in my original post. There have actually been many smaller CB's who have turned out to be good blitzers. But the majority are bigger.

 

 

 

 

The majority of fans are very ignorant people. I am responsible for what I write, not what you understand. There is a reason why Marv Levy said "If you listen to the fans, eventually you wind up sitting next to them."

Who is Brown? We were talking about Brooks… does that help?

 

You were making the point that the best CB blitzers are big corners… Ronde Barber is the leading sacker among CBs in NFL history.

 

You give the Drew Brees explanation which is fine.

 

But the second most prolific sacker among NFL CBs is Ray Crockett and he played at 5'10" and 185 pounds.

 

I'm not completely buying your size argument for blitzing cornerbacks although all things being equal…

 

It seems like quickness, speed, instincts, and timing are the main factors.

Edited May 5, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[eball]

<snip>

perhaps you should try picking on someone who wasn't a professional scout for many years.

 

I think he did, since we've established you weren't.