looks like we have to cut kelsey

[Kelly the Dog]

You might be correct based on your silly technicalities, but Kelsay has been wearing 90 for the Bills since he has been in the league. Even if the team could force him to switch (which I don't think they can, but I'm not sure), they have publicly stated that they would not. Since he is not being forced to and is unwilling to change, he will continue to wear 90 as long as he is a member of the team. That is what makes it his number.

The team can force him to change, yes. They won't but the team is responsible for the numbers. They can retire ones they want, they can force players to give up numbers if they want. They just don't usually. I think the Redskins forced Jabar Gafney to give up 10 for RG3 before they cut him but I'm not sure about that.

[todzilla]

As far as retired numbers goes it is my understanding that the only number retired is 12. And, it's not Jim Kelly's number. It was retired to honor the 12th man. (I could be wrong about this, not sure,)

 

 

The 12th Man is on the wall of fame, but the jersey was retired for Kelly. They had a big ceremony at one of the games. I would think Bruce and Thurman should get the same treatment. Thanks for posting the story about numbers Chandamonium, it was a good read.

 

And I agree that Kelsey should get to keep the number if he wants it...he's earned that. He's been a solid player for a while and is still contributing. If it was a 2nd year special teams player, then sure give it to Mario.

[dogma+]

You might be correct based on your silly technicalities, but Kelsay has been wearing 90 for the Bills since he has been in the league. Even if the team could force him to switch (which I don't think they can, but I'm not sure), they have publicly stated that they would not. Since he is not being forced to and is unwilling to change, he will continue to wear 90 as long as he is a member of the team. That is what makes it his number.

 

Of course they can. The team owns the jersey, the number, and the players services. They can do whatever they want.

 

It's not HIS number. The team has simply stated that they are not willing to take it from him and give it to another player. A veteran player like Kelsay should be willing to give up "his" number as a simple act of welcoming Mario to the team, if nothing else.

[Salty]

If I were Williams I would rather take a unused number (Im not sure what numbers are available). I would understand that Kelsay has been a Buffalo Bill for a long time and he deserves to wear his number on his team, Kelsay isnt the newcomer and despite all the Kelsay criticism he has played hard for Buffalo. Ive never thought he was a bad as everyone said, especially last year. He has become the whipping boy for this team years ago, Im not exactly sure why, but then again Im sure more of you on the board have better football knowledge then I do. ALSO 78 NEVER GETS TOUCHED AGAIN, NO RETIRED NUMBERS! (UNLESS WE START TO RUN OUT OF NUMBERS, that would be awesome)

[stony]

Of course they can. The team owns the jersey, the number, and the players services. They can do whatever they want.

 

It's not HIS number. The team has simply stated that they are not willing to take it from him and give it to another player. A veteran player like Kelsay should be willing to give up "his" number as a simple act of welcoming Mario to the team, if nothing else.

 

Kelsay has played longer than Williams. Vets, well-respected ones at that, don't have to give up anything they don't want to.

 

Also, as for the jersey, if he switches #s he is financially liable for the unsold Kelsay jerseys out there.

Edited May 2, 2012 by stony

[RyanC883]

Why should he give it up? Kelsay has played well for the Bills. Why should Carrington give 92 up? If you move teams and your numbers taken, suck it up and pick something else.

 

I don't know what yall have been been watching for the last 10 years. At DE Chris has been solid. Not great, but solid.

 

Good for you Chris in not giving it up.

 

I hope the Bills assign Williams #78. That would be sweet.

 

I'm all for him having #78. Is that retired? Carrington should give up his number as long as Williams pays him for it. That's how this works. Veteran comes in, wants a number of a YOUNGER (not another veteran) guy, and buys it. I doubt Carrington would demand much money.

 

Step one: buy Kelsay jersey on ebay.

Step two: put a Williams nameplate on it.

Step three: ignore the weird looks you get until Kelsay retires, then be the first of your friends to have Mario's new number.

 

Fantastic idea. haha.

 

Number 77 or 97 I like also.

[Rico]

jesus christ. talk about overdoing it. chris kelsay is a mediocre football player. he's a symbol of a decade of football in buffalo that brings new meaning to the term epic fail. that's awesome that his dad is cool, but i'm sure other players who have sucked have cool dads too.

Indeed. All Kelsay knows is how to lose.

 

That being said, I have no problem with him wanting to keep #90. Players with that many years on one team should consider themselves vested in that regard... it'd be similar to Vince Young asking Moorman for #8. Easiest and cleanest way around this is to just cut Kelsay.

[dogma+]

Kelsay has played longer than Williams. Vets, well-respected ones at that, don't have to give up anything they don't want to.

 

Also, as for the jersey, if he switches #s he is financially liable for the unsold Kelsay jerseys out there.

 

The purchaser of the number always pays for the unsold jerseys. Mario would pay for that. Common knowledge.

 

Kelsay is not a respected football player. He may be a respected human being, but he isn't very good at the NFL level. He routinely is caught off guard, gets bogged down by offensive lineman, bites on pump fakes...etc. I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut.

 

And there is no rule that you dont have to give up your number because you have been in the league longer than someone else. Thats just silly.

[Kelly the Dog]

The purchaser of the number always pays for the unsold jerseys. Mario would pay for that. Common knowledge.

 

Kelsay is not a respected football player. He may be a respected human being, but he isn't very good at the NFL level. He routinely is caught off guard, gets bogged down by offensive lineman, bites on pump fakes...etc. I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut.

 

And there is no rule that you dont have to give up your number because you have been in the league longer than someone else. Thats just silly.

Actually, I have heard quite a few professional players when talking about the Bills and their talent, they mention Kelsay. Nix, who is appreciated by the vast number of Bills fans on this site as a talent evaluator thinks very highly of Kelsay, self-evident by the extension. Nix is not without fail, surely, but there was no reason for the Bills to extend Kelsay when they did and yet he still did it. Because Kelsay is valuable member on the team. I would bet you any amount of money you want that Wannstedt likes Kelsay, and I would bet you that he makes the team and plays a substantial amounts of snaps even with Mario and Anderson and even Merriman ahead of him. To say he is not a respected football player is just wrong. He may not be respected by Bills fans, but he's a good football player.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Kelly the Dog

[dogma+]

Actually, I have heard quite a few professional players when talking about the Bills and their talent, they mention Kelsay. Nix, who is appreciated by the vast number of Bills fans on this site as a talent evaluator thinks very highly of Kelsay, self-evident by the extension. Nix is not without fail, surely, but there was no reason for the Bills to extend Kelsay when they did and yet he still did it. Because Kelsay is valuable member on the team. I would bet you any amount of money you want that Wannstedt likes Kelsay, and I would bet you that he makes the team and plays a substantial amounts of snaps even with Mario and Anderson and even Merriman ahead of him. To say he is not a respected football player is just wrong. He may not be respected by Bills fans, but he's a good football player.

 

Who are the professional players, and do they still play? I don't think the Nix link is evident at all. Kelsay was re-signed by Nix because when Nix took over he knew he needed to retain some form of continuity while he slashed the team up. Kelsay was the perfect person for that job and he did admirably. There is no doubt that Kelsay is well liked, nice guy who is a good guy to have in a locker room.

 

But he is not a good football player, and I really don't care who tries to tell me that he is. I've evaluated talent for many years, and I am confident in my abilities. Kelsay is routinely swallowed up by athletic tackles and guards who can get to the next level. He bites on pump fakes and reverses worse than any DE that I can remember in the last decade of Buffalo Bills football. When dropping into a zone coverage, he consistently lets TE's get behind and to his right shoulder. At this position, he has no chance to rebound. He's too slow for an OLB and too flat footed for a DE. Not to mention that the majority of his tackles are 4-5 yards downfield - a very, very small percentage of his tackles are at the LOS or behind.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Kelsay doesn't make it through Training Camp this year.

Edited May 2, 2012 by dogma+

[eball]

Who are the professional players, and do they still play? I don't think the Nix link is evident at all. Kelsay was re-signed by Nix because when Nix took over he knew he needed to retain some form of continuity while he slashed the team up. Kelsay was the perfect person for that job and he did admirably. There is no doubt that Kelsay is well liked, nice guy who is a good guy to have in a locker room.

 

But he is not a good football player, and I really don't care who tries to tell me that he is. I've evaluated talent for many years, and I am confident in my abilities. Kelsay is routinely swallowed up by athletic tackles and guards who can get to the next level. He bites on pump fakes and reverses worse than any DE that I can remember in the last decade of Buffalo Bills football. When dropping into a zone coverage, he consistently lets TE's get behind and to his right shoulder. At this position, he has no chance to rebound. He's too slow for an OLB and too flat footed for a DE. Not to mention that the majority of his tackles are 4-5 yards downfield - a very, very small percentage of his tackles are at the LOS or behind.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Kelsay doesn't make it through Training Camp this year.

As a profession?

[dogma+]

As a profession?

 

My father was a BLESTO Scout for many years. I can't tell you how many thousands of hours of film we have gone through together.

Edited May 2, 2012 by dogma+

[Kelly the Dog]

My father was a BLESTO Scout for many years. I can't tell you how many thousands of hours of film we have gone through together.

Got it. So you haven't actually watched any since the late 70s?

 

Actually, that's pretty cool, and a great background for evaluating players. I agree that Kelsay is the worst player I have ever seen as far as biting on reverses. I told someone a couple days ago if I were coaching against the Bills I would run a reverse every single play and Kelsay would never catch on. He's also terrible covering TEs. So what? He's supposed to be a DE and is not supposed to be covering TEs downfield. But it's the height of arrogance to say I don't care who tells me he is good, I know he is not good. If Bill Belichick and Rex Ryan and Dave Wannstedt told you Chris Kelsay was a pretty darn good football player, you would still say no, you guys are stupid, he isn't because I know?

 

The thing is, I would bet you all three of those guys think he is good.

[dogma+]

But it's the height of arrogance to say I don't care who tells me he is good, I know he is not good. If Bill Belichick and Rex Ryan and Dave Wannstedt told you Chris Kelsay was a pretty darn good football player, you would still say no, you guys are stupid, he isn't because I know?

 

The thing is, I would bet you all three of those guys think he is good.

 

Well, I don't believe any of them would say that in full honesty. They may say it the way that all coaches give politically correct answers to questions, but I don't believe Kelsay would be a starting anything on a Rex Ryan or Bill Belichick team. In fact, I know he wouldn't. He may not even be a starting DE on our Wannstedt defense.

 

To answer your question, if any one of those three told me in full discourse that they believed Kelsay was a good football player I would have to go back and question my ability all together. I believe that Belichick has LOVED the fact that Kelsay has been a starting player on the Bills for years. He has taken advantage of Kelsay time and again.

[Kelly the Dog]

Well, I don't believe any of them would say that in full honesty. They may say it the way that all coaches give politically correct answers to questions, but I don't believe Kelsay would be a starting anything on a Rex Ryan or Bill Belichick team. In fact, I know he wouldn't. He may not even be a starting DE on our Wannstedt defense.

 

To answer your question, if any one of those three told me in full discourse that they believed Kelsay was a good football player I would have to go back and question my ability all together. I believe that Belichick has LOVED the fact that Kelsay has been a starting player on the Bills for years. He has taken advantage of Kelsay time and again.

Fair enough. I don't think he is going to be starting for us either. I think he is going to be the #4 DE. But that doesn't mean he is not a good football player. I don't think he is great or even very good. And I REALLY think that most Bills fans get hung up on his obvious deficiencies when he looks downright foolish out there, like on reverses. But those are 1-2 plays a game, and on the other 48 snaps he's a different player. Yes, he does get engulfed too much and completely taken out of plays, but all DEs do who are not stellar players. Again, I don't think he is really good. But he is a solid, serviceable NFL quality player and he is definitely respected around the league.

 

Nix did NOT in any way have to resign him to that deal. He wasn't up for a contract for well over a year and maybe two. And even if he did want to do it to show other players something, there is no reason to pay him 6 million. That's an outrageous contract for Chris Kelsay. It's downright criminal. But it shows you Nix thinks very highly of him.

[dogma+]

Fair enough. I don't think he is going to be starting for us either. I think he is going to be the #4 DE. But that doesn't mean he is not a good football player. I don't think he is great or even very good. And I REALLY think that most Bills fans get hung up on his obvious deficiencies when he looks downright foolish out there, like on reverses. But those are 1-2 plays a game, and on the other 48 snaps he's a different player. Yes, he does get engulfed too much and completely taken out of plays, but all DEs do who are not stellar players. Again, I don't think he is really good. But he is a solid, serviceable NFL quality player and he is definitely respected around the league.

 

Nix did NOT in any way have to resign him to that deal. He wasn't up for a contract for well over a year and maybe two. And even if he did want to do it to show other players something, there is no reason to pay him 6 million. That's an outrageous contract for Chris Kelsay. It's downright criminal. But it shows you Nix thinks very highly of him.

 

You are clearly an intelligent poster, so I think the problem may be that we have different definitions of the phrase "good football player".

 

When you study film, the prevailing question is "Would he be a good football player for our team?" and the definition of "good football player" is a player who will win a starting position and sustain it for many years, not by lack of competition but by being clearly better and harder working than the competition which results in that player being an integral part of why our football team wins football games.

 

And Chris Kelsay does not match that definition.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

Kelsay's "solid" season last year. 5.0 sacks. 3 came against Tebow and the Broncos. Great game, but the entire defense shut Tebow down that game in a blowout. The other 2 sacks in 11 games? Miami (1) and Washington (1). So he also got to John Beck and Matt Moore once. Wow.

 

Sad thing is, CK probably could've nearly doubled his sack total last year if he had ANY pursuit or tackling discipline after 9 years in the league. He still doesn't. He still gets wide eyed when he gets back there, and whiffs on way, way too many plays.

 

Tackles and run support? Hard to say that with the Bills historically bad run defense. 10 tackles in the aforementioned Denver game. Great. The other 11 games? He averaged less than 3 tackles (solo+assited) per.

 

Is CK a great guy? Sure, maybe. Doesn't change the fact he disappears for stretches on the field and has been a major cog in some awful defenses during his time here. You can make the excuse he was surrounded by "bartenders" and it's not his fault. I contend he is one of those bartenders and should've been out long ago.

 

Kelsay's extension is still mystifying to me, but obviously it was a vote of confidence by Nix and Gailey. But pair it with Nix's other moves the last few years ( drafting carrington, signing merriman, williams and anderson) and I think that confidence is wearing thin.

[reddogblitz]

I have an idea for a number for Mario to wear

 

100,000,000

 

He's certainly earned it.

[C.Biscuit97]

Good for Kelsay. Why should he give up his number? If some hotshot comes to your office, should you have to give up your cube?

 

The funniest part is fans care more than Mario does. A new team should equal a fresh start.

[RTW2012]

12 is the only number officially retired. The unofficially retired ones are 78, 34, and 32.