Adam Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I have heard a number of people call the war illegal. How was it illegal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 For starters there was never a Declaration of War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 For starters there was never a Declaration of War So the war authorization act (that isn't the proper name, but I am drawing a blank) doesn't take care of that? I am posing that as a question and not being sarcastic or anything. I have no idea, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Don't know about the Legality, but it was certainly stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Don't know about the Legality, but it was certainly stupid. Please expand. I have been reading about Iraq lately and i am interested in more informed opinions than my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Please expand. I have been reading about Iraq lately and i am interested in more informed opinions than my own. The treat was and continues to be in Afghanistan... we have done alot of damage to the terror network in Afghanistan, and our focus should have been lasered there and not diluted with a 8 year engagement in Iraq. Look, no one here sits in on the National Security breifing everyday like GWB did, or Obama does- so it is easy to sit back as a citizen and criticize- but from all the reports I have seen it appears Iraq was not a serious threat... a nuisance, yes, but immediate threat, no. Someone else here can probably lay out more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I have heard a number of people call the war illegal. How was it illegal? Some people may not agree with it (obviously) but the Iraqi War Resolution is easily found online. http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) Some people may not agree with it (obviously) but the Iraqi War Resolution is easily found online. http://uspolitics.about.com/od/wariniraq/a/jt_resolution.htm I think a lot of people in conversation confuse the fact that we often do engage in military action in ways the Constitution doesn't authorize, with the claims that the Iraq war was illegal under international agreements for lack of a UN Resolution authorizing it. I don't really know all the arguments and honestly it's moot b/c the UN won't do **** but the "illegality" of the Iraq war argument centers on the UN and our agreements with them and not having whatever clearance we need from them or something...and then we would point to something that either says we did somehow have clearance (based on some broad interpretation) or that we never signed away our ability to defend ourselves and that's what we're doing and blah blah blah. Long story short, something about the UN and international law not domestic law. Edited May 1, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Something that i am confused about is whether we could have gone to war even without the authorization law, bases on the fact that our legal policy towards Iraq was regime change and had been for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) Something that i am confused about is whether we could have gone to war even without the authorization law, bases on the fact that our legal policy towards Iraq was regime change and had been for awhile. Without "the authorization law?" W/ out a Congressional Declaration or without UN Authorization? W/ out UN Authorization we arguably did (though I don't think it's clear) and nothing happened. W/ out Congressional Declaration of War it depends who you ask. If you ask Ron Paul, no. If you ask virtually all people who have actually been President then the answer is either "yes" or "probably depending on how bad I thought I needed to." Edited May 1, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) I think a lot of people in conversation confuse the fact that we often do engage in military action in ways the Constitution doesn't authorize, with the claims that the Iraq war was illegal under international agreements for lack of a UN Resolution authorizing it. I don't really know all the arguments and honestly it's moot b/c the UN won't do **** but the "illegality" of the Iraq war argument centers on the UN and our agreements with them and not having whatever clearance we need from them or something...and then we would point to something that either says we did somehow have clearance (based on some broad interpretation) or that we never signed away our ability to defend ourselves and that's what we're doing and blah blah blah. Long story short, something about the UN and international law not domestic law. We don't need U.N. authorization to go to war but will naturally quote it when we have it. The Iraqi war resolution is linked below. Many have disagreed with the validity of some of the allegations but it can't be denied that Saddam claimed to have WMD's and refused U.N. inspectors access. It also can't be denied that certain terrorists were hiding out in Iraq. http://hnn.us/articles/1282.html http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/987075/posts http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp Edited May 1, 2012 by 3rdnlng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I have heard a number of people call the war illegal. How was it illegal? I was always under the impression that people considered it illegal because "Bush lied to congress and got authorization under false pretenses." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) Either way Bush certainly had some intelligence problems. No pun intended. As an executive you are only as good as the people around you... Edited May 1, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Either way Bush certainly had some intelligence problems. No pun intended. As an executive you are only as good as the people around you... That explains a lot about the current WH occupant. Dennis Miller once cleverly commented that while Bush was not the smartest guy, he surrounded himself with smart people like a hole surrounds itself with a donut. You could argue Obama surrounds himself with smart people like a hole surrounds itself with more holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 To me the question is, is a law a law if it is blatantly violated and there is not even an attempt to enforce it - in my opinion both the U.S. Constitution and international law are rather frequently maybe constantly violated- former CIA officer Jose Rodriguez was just on 60 minutes explaining that yeah we tortured people but we had a really really good reason to do it- I don't remember the United Nations Convention Against Torture reading torture is illegal and a war crime unless you got a really really good reason to do it but I haven't read it for awhile- despite the effort to pretend that the U.S. and the world in general operate under a system of laws the truth is the world operates pretty much as it always has and laws are just enforced on the weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 To me the question is, is a law a law if it is blatantly violated and there is not even an attempt to enforce it - in my opinion both the U.S. Constitution and international law are rather frequently maybe constantly violated- former CIA officer Jose Rodriguez was just on 60 minutes explaining that yeah we tortured people but we had a really really good reason to do it- I don't remember the United Nations Convention Against Torture reading torture is illegal and a war crime unless you got a really really good reason to do it but I haven't read it for awhile- despite the effort to pretend that the U.S. and the world in general operate under a system of laws the truth is the world operates pretty much as it always has and laws are just enforced on the weak. Again, I was under the impression more that violations of the international law against torture had more to do with the "Well, it wasn't really torture" argument, not "Torture is okay in this case, because we really really needed it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 To me the question is, is a law a law if it is blatantly violated and there is not even an attempt to enforce it - in my opinion both the U.S. Constitution and international law are rather frequently maybe constantly violated- former CIA officer Jose Rodriguez was just on 60 minutes explaining that yeah we tortured people but we had a really really good reason to do it- I don't remember the United Nations Convention Against Torture reading torture is illegal and a war crime unless you got a really really good reason to do it but I haven't read it for awhile- despite the effort to pretend that the U.S. and the world in general operate under a system of laws the truth is the world operates pretty much as it always has and laws are just enforced on the weak. Laws are enforced where and when they suit U.S. interests. Since WWII, the U.S. has consistently violated international law to curb Soviet influence, and now radical Islam. Its the world's worst kept secret. The question is whether or not it can be any other way? I've heard Chomsky and other intellectuals blast away at U.S. foreign policy, Imperial aspirations, and a litany of other charges, but they never propose an alternative or discuss how realistic it is to live up to the lofty standards we espouse. At what cost is it worth to live up to international law while our enemies are unconstrained? Are U.S. interests more or less aligned with global interests? Is the current economic system sustainable without a fleet aircraft carriers protecting our influence around the globe? If not the current system then what? And let's be serious, international law as enforced by the UN is a total farce anyway. Never Again!, unless approved by the Russians, Iranians and Chinese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Thank you to everyone for the insights. For anyone interested in the topic, it is covered extensively in Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's book. I find his insights as far as defending the administrations' decision to go to war, and his criticisms as to what followed the war. He makes a lot of things that I think would be over my head seem fairly easy to understand. Haven't finished the book, but I highly recommend it to anyone on either side of the aisle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Thank you to everyone for the insights. For anyone interested in the topic, it is covered extensively in Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's book. I find his insights as far as defending the administrations' decision to go to war, and his criticisms as to what followed the war. He makes a lot of things that I think would be over my head seem fairly easy to understand. Haven't finished the book, but I highly recommend it to anyone on either side of the aisle. My wife used to work in the same office building as Rummy; ran into him in the elevator all the time. The guy is absolutely obsessed with justifying the invasion of Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 My wife used to work in the same office building as Rummy; ran into him in the elevator all the time. The guy is absolutely obsessed with justifying the invasion of Iraq. My father in law, the biggest Democratic party supporter of all time tells me stories all the time about how "Rumms and Cheney are traitors and should be tried for treason"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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