Good lord, the Pats just keep getting better

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Again, debating who is responsible for the Pats draft's during BB's tenure here is a different topic.

 

Debating whether BB's draft's have been better than any other teams is what I am looking at. I have presented evidence (all pro selections) that no other team has been better than BB's. The counter seems to be that BB isn't responsible for adding those players. Please provide proof that this is the case.

I just did. All those names I mentioned?

 

"Since the departure of much of their braintrust, high draft picks like Shawn Crable, Terrence Wheatley, Brandon Merriweather, Brandon Tate and Darius Butler aren't even on the team anymore.

 

All of these guys were either 2nd or 3rd rounders and none of them have succeeded elsewhere. Several more of their higher draft picks are still with the team but disappointing like Ron Brace and Jermaine Cunningham."

 

Look at the track record pre and post Pioli-Dimitroff.

 

There are actually books on this subject.

 

And again, your "evidence" is outdated. All these guys I mention above are from 2008 or later. Some of them were thrown on the trash heap after one season. Darius Butler was taken one pick before the Bills drafted Jairus Byrd.

Edited April 29, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[mob16151]

I just did. All those names I mentioned?

 

"Since the departure of much of their braintrust, high draft picks like Shawn Crable, Terrence Wheatley, Brandon Merriweather, Brandon Tate and Darius Butler aren't even on the team anymore.

 

All of these guys were either 2nd or 3rd rounders and none of them have succeeded elsewhere. Several more of their higher draft picks are still with the team but disappointing like Ron Brace and Jermaine Cunningham."

 

Look at the track record pre and post Pioli-Dimitroff.

 

There are actually books on this subject.

 

And again, your "evidence" is outdated. All these guys I mention above are from 2008 or later. Some of them were thrown on the trash heap after one season. Darius Butler was taken one pick before the Bills drafted Jairus Byrd.

 

 

^^^^^^^ This

[Pneumonic]

I just did. All those names I mentioned?

 

"Since the departure of much of their braintrust, high draft picks like Shawn Crable, Terrence Wheatley, Brandon Merriweather, Brandon Tate and Darius Butler aren't even on the team anymore.

 

All of these guys were either 2nd or 3rd rounders and none of them have succeeded elsewhere. Several more of their higher draft picks are still with the team but disappointing like Ron Brace and Jermaine Cunningham."

 

Look at the track record pre and post Pioli-Dimitroff.

 

There are actually books on this subject.

 

And again, your "evidence" is outdated.

Please, do you actually follow the Pats?

 

The last few drafts have added top line starters such as Gronk, Hernandez, McCourty, Spikes, Chung, and Vollmer. And they also have added starters Deaderick, Pryor, Edelman. Last years draft is too early to judge but they appear to have on a star LT in Solder and, prior to getting injured, Dolwing was the starter. And they appear to have their starting RB's in Vareen and Ridley. And, by the looks of it, they did well in this draft as well.

 

Plenty of draft people have come and gone since BB took over the GM duties. But, one thing has remained consistent in all this time ..... BB has been calling the personnel shots. On this their is no argument.

[mob16151]

Please, do you actually follow the Pats?

 

The last few drafts have added top line starters such as Gronk, Hernandez, McCourty, Spikes, Chung, and Vollmer. And they also have added starters Deaderick, Pryor, Edelman. Last years draft is too early to judge but they appear to have on a star LT in Solder and, prior to getting injured, Dolwing was the starter. And they appear to have their starting RB's in Vareen and Ridley. And, by the looks of it, they did well in this draft as well.

 

Plenty of draft people have come and gone since BB took over the GM duties. But, one thing has remained consistent in all this time ..... BB has been calling the personnel shots. On this their is no argument.

 

Top line really? McCourty got burnt consistently last season,Chung struggles against the pass, and Spikes is the definition of average. Edelman's a glorified Special Teamer, not a starter.

[Pneumonic]

Top line really? McCourty got burnt consistently last season,Chung struggles against the pass, and Spikes is the definition of average. Edelman's a glorified Special Teamer, not a starter.

So it boils down to one opinion versus another when it comes to player skill?

 

OK, how about this for more objectivity. Tell me how many of the players on last years Pats team (that were good enough to play on a SB squad) were added post Dimitroff?

[DanInUticaTampa]

I think when looking at how much better the teams in the afc got, you have to look at the whole offseason.

 

this is a quick, vague overview:

 

 

Pats*

biggest needs: pass rush, pass rush, pass rush. also saftey, linebacker, and oline with light retiring.

 

Key additions: Brandon lloyd, Gonzalez, hightower, chandler jones.

 

key losses: light, anderson, carter (?)

 

 

Bills:

biggest needs going into the offseason: pass rush pass rush pass rush, LT, depth, CB, WR.

 

Key additions: Gilmore, Mario, anderson, glenn

 

Key losses: Bell

 

 

 

when you look at the offseason as a whiole, all afc east teams needed pass rush, and bad. it is obvious the bills pass rush improved way more than the others. Jones might turn out to be a good player for the pats*, but they also lost a 10 sack player from last year (to us) as well.

 

I think looking at the whole offeason, the bills improved more than their rivals. Sure, it might not be enough improvment to make us the best, and it has to be proven on the field. But I say if we had a top ten QB (Brees, Eli, Rivers) we would be division favorites. We can still win and do well with fitz, but if we did have a top ten QB, it would be hard not to have super bowl expectation for this team, imo.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Please, do you actually follow the Pats?

The last few drafts have added top line starters such as Gronk, Hernandez, McCourty, Spikes, Chung, and Vollmer. And they also have added starters Deaderick, Pryor, Edelman. Last years draft is too early to judge but they appear to have on a star LT in Solder and, prior to getting injured, Dolwing was the starter. And they appear to have their starting RB's in Vareen and Ridley. And, by the looks of it, they did well in this draft as well.

 

Plenty of draft people have come and gone since BB took over the GM duties. But, one thing has remained consistent in all this time ..... BB has been calling the personnel shots. On this their is no argument.

Do I follow the Pats? I follow them incidentally because actually I'm a Bills fan.

 

How about you?

 

If the 2011 draft is too early to judge, what is this nonsense about Vereen and Ridley? Why are they trying to trade Mallett? And just how well they drafted is certainly open to debate, thus our discussion here. I'm not impressed with their draft this year and I haven't been too impressed with their draftees other than Gronkowski (who they took a chance on due to teams being concerned about his back) and Hernandez.

 

So it boils down to one opinion versus another when it comes to player skill?

 

OK, how about this for more objectivity. Tell me how many of the players on last years Pats team (that were good enough to play on a SB squad) were added post Dimitroff?

The team which beat one other team with a winning record?

 

The team from which was a dropped TD pass and a short missed field goal from losing the AFC Championship at home?

 

You Cheatriots*** fans fail to acknowledge that your team is in a period of decline which was masked by a serendipitous season last year.

 

 

[billsfan89]

The Pats* in philosophy had a decent draft. They drafted up their front 7 in round 1 which is what I thought they had been ignoring in past years. Jones and Hightower should help that front 7. The Wilson pick was a boneheaded move as I think they could have gotten him much later. Bequette their 3rd rounder and last pick of consequence (As they only had 6th and 7th rounders left) tries to add some depth to the front 7.

 

Considering that the Pats* didn't get an extra 1st or 2nd in next years draft can we now calm down each year about the Pats* being so stocked with picks? They finally used them and yeah they got some good players but that's to be expected. I think Hightower is a stud, Jones could go either way, and Wilson and Bequette aren't much to write home about. The Bills honestly had a much better draft overall.

[Pneumonic]

Do I follow the Pats? I follow them incidentally because actually I'm a Bills fan.

 

How about you?

 

If the 2011 draft is too early to judge, what is this nonsense about Vereen and Ridley? Why are they trying to trade Mallett? And just how well they drafted is certainly open to debate, thus our discussion here. I'm not impressed with their draft this year and I haven't been too impressed with their draftees other than Gronkowski (who they took a chance on due to teams being concerned about his back) and Hernandez.

 

 

The team which beat one other team with a winning record?

 

The team from which was a dropped TD pass and a short missed field goal from losing the AFC Championship at home?

 

You Cheatriots*** fans fail to acknowledge that your team is in a period of decline which was masked by a serendipitous season last year.

You keep rationalizing reasons to explain why the Pats personnel moves have been bad yet the team was still good enough to be 1 play away from last years SB and have been good to win 10+ games every year dating back a decade.

 

At some point you would think that maybe, just maybe, you'd realize that whoever is the "real guy" running that team's personnel, has a pretty good idea of what they are doing

Edited April 29, 2012 by Pneumonic

[DanInUticaTampa]

it's threads like this wear I just cannot wait for the season to start.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

You keep rationalizing reasons to explain why the Pats personnel moves have been bad yet the team was still good enough to be 1 play away from last years SB and have been good to win 10+ games every year dating back a decade.

 

At some point you would think that maybe, just maybe, you'd realize that whoever is the "real guy" running that team's personnel, has a pretty good idea of what they are doing

I give Belichick a lot of credit for a lot of things including hiring Pioli and Dimitroff in the first place.

 

Since those two departed, the drafts have not been nearly as good. IMO, take away Brady and Wilfork and the Cheatriots*** are just another team.

 

In "The War Room" written by Belichick devotee Michael Holley, the author even writes how Belichick overruled Pioli and Dimitroff on Laurence Maroney and Chad Jackson, two high round busts.

 

I think it's pretty self-evident that the Cheatriots*** have not drafted well since Pioli/Dimitroff left and that it's reached the point that their drafts not be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

So yes, I disagree completely with your broad, general, and unsupported suggestions that it's been Belichick making the picks all throughout his tenure and that the recent drafts are as good as the early ones. I disagree with both of your points.

Edited April 29, 2012 by San Jose Bills Fan

[Pneumonic]

I give Belichick a lot of credit for a lot of things including hiring Pioli and Dimitroff in the first place.

 

Since those two departed, the drafts have not been nearly as good. IMO, take away Brady and Wilfork and the Cheatriots*** are just another team.

 

In "The War Room" written by Belichick devotee Michael Holley, the author even writes how Belichick overruled Pioli and Dimitroff on Laurence Maroney and Chad Jackson, two high round busts.

 

I think it's pretty self-evident that the Cheatriots*** have not drafted well since Pioli/Dimitroff left and that it's reached the point that their drafts not be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

So yes, I disagree completely with your broad, general, and unsupported suggestions that it's been Belichick making the picks all throughout his tenure and that the recent drafts are as good as the early ones. I disagree with both of your points.

BB is the GM and has final say on all personnel matters. Not sure what more I can tell you.

 

BTW, all GM's miss on drafted players. To selectively note BB's misses is fine but, realize he's not alone. For example, take a look at the four best drafting teams after NE, the Packers, Giants, Steelers and Ravens. They all have sizeable misses.

 

BTW, many people believe the Pats '10 draft class .... McCourty, Gronk, Hernandez, Spikes, Mesko and Deaderick ....... may end up being the best of the BB era .....

[John from Riverside]

One more thing to add to this

 

It really does not matter what the patriots do at this point.....until we actually beat them when it matters they are our big brother in the league.

 

It matters what WE do.....it matters what OUR drafts look like....it matters what WE do in the offseaon to fix weaknesses

 

Lets take care of our own kitchen before we worry about the pats

[San Jose Bills Fan]

BB is the GM and has final say on all personnel matters. Not sure what more I can tell you.

 

BTW, all GM's miss on drafted players. To selectively note BB's misses is fine but, realize he's not alone. For example, take a look at the four best drafting teams after NE, the Packers, Giants, Steelers and Ravens. They all have sizeable misses.

 

BTW, many people believe the Pats '10 draft class .... McCourty, Gronk, Hernandez, Spikes, Mesko and Deaderick ....... may end up being the best of the BB era .....

BB has final say on all personnel matters?

 

No one's arguing that.

 

But when he had Pioli and Dimitroff, he at least had guys who would stand up to him and argue with him, even if they were overruled… according to Holley's book.

 

So BB was responsible for:

 

Laurence Maroney 2006 1st rounder: Out of Football

Chad Jackson 2006 2nd rounder: Omaha Nighthawks

Brandon Merriweather 2007 1st rounder: Washington Redskins

Terrence Wheatley 2008 2nd rounder: Tennessee Titans

Shawn Crable 2008 3rd rounder: Hamilton Tiger Cats

Darius Butler 2009 2nd rounder: Carolina Panthers

Brandon Tate 2009 3rd rounder: Cincinnati Bengals

 

All of these guys are complete busts (not one single established starter in the group, let alone Pro Bowlers) and 2009 2nd rounder Ron Brace and 2010 2nd rounder Jermaine Cunningham have been huge disappointments and could very well join the group.

 

Yeah all GMs have sizable misses but if it was anyone but Belichick calling the shots in New England, he would have been fired by now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One more thing to add to this

 

It really does not matter what the patriots do at this point.....until we actually beat them when it matters they are our big brother in the league.

 

It matters what WE do.....it matters what OUR drafts look like....it matters what WE do in the offseaon to fix weaknesses

 

Lets take care of our own kitchen before we worry about the pats

That's fine John but we are having a football discussion on the quality of the Cheatriots*** drafts.

 

The fact that we've regrettably only beat them once in recent memory does not supersede having this discussion.

 

 

[Adam]

So? You can't worry about what other teams do, just what you can do. Bottom line NE is saying '****, Buffalo is getting !@#$ing good on D'

And with a line of Sanders, Levitre, Wood, Glenn and Hairston, the offense may be improved as well- we will put up more points, just based on teh D getting us extra possessions.

[MattM]

Always look at the underlying data. I just did and it's hysterical. Here are the Cheats* PB players they drafted who played in PB's from 2002 to 2011:

 

Bledsoe

Woody

Seymour

Law

Milloy

Izzo (ST)

McGinest (not sure they drafted him, but what the heck)

Brady

Bruschi

Vinatieri

Koppen

Wilfork (2004)

Mankins

Light (2002)

Gostkowski

Merriweather (just shows what a joke the PB is, more on that later)

McCourty (see immediately above comment)

Mayo

Slater (ST)

 

Notice something here? First thing I noticed was that most of the guys in the list above were drafted in the mid to late 1990s, well over a decade ago. Not much at all in the last few years, as you'll see, and some of those taken in the last few years would NEVER HAVE MADE THE PB IF THEY DIDN'T PLAY FOR THE CHEATS* (I'm looking at you Merriweather and McCourty (great soph season, BTW--ha, ha)), since we all know that the success of the team one plays on has a massive amount to do with whether you make the PB or not. Great example to me of that on the other side is TKO not making it when he had great seasons with the Bengals about a decade ago--the guy was clearly one of the best LBs in the League then, but got no recognition. Thus the whole premise is flawed, but even so, Pneumonic's arguments about how special the Pats* drafting skills are recently has been shredded by the evidence.

 

In looking at the PB lists, it's also apparent to me that a lot of their success has been in picking up FA's who will play at below market wages for a chance at a ring and/or aging vets who may like New England's aging vet-friendly pharmaceuticals policy, like Harrison--free HGH all around, boys!--too bad HGH testing is coming about a decade too late to catch some of his teammates....

Edited April 29, 2012 by MattM

[3rdand12]

I have considered the Patriots on the decline based purely on opinion. regardless of this draft. and i consider the Bills to be rising based on the last two drafts and other points of interest. Both Offence and defence. But mostly defense. poor Mr Brady. i am not gloating but he is going to get knocked up this year because of defenses in the afc going after the passer as the ginats did.

the Patriots era is ending, but who will rise to the occasion and skim the cream?

[Pneumonic]

We can argue the merits of players talents and skills till we are blue in the face. The reality, however, points to overwhelming support that the Pats braintrust, led by BB, knows a thing or two about stocking a team with talented players. All personal biases aside, the Pats have won 10+ games each season dating back a decade, they have dominated the AFC during this time (having gone to the SB in 5 of the last 10 seasons winning 3 of them), and they just came off a another SB appearance where they were 1 missed play away from winning it all yet again.

 

One has to rationalize a TON to explain away such facts. But it's an exercise in futility if one is to remain objective in the process.

[John from Riverside]

BB has final say on all personnel matters?

 

No one's arguing that.

 

But when he had Pioli and Dimitroff, he at least had guys who would stand up to him and argue with him, even if they were overruled… according to Holley's book.

 

So BB was responsible for:

 

Laurence Maroney 2006 1st rounder: Out of Football

Chad Jackson 2006 2nd rounder: Omaha Nighthawks

Brandon Merriweather 2007 1st rounder: Washington Redskins

Terrence Wheatley 2008 2nd rounder: Tennessee Titans

Shawn Crable 2008 3rd rounder: Hamilton Tiger Cats

Darius Butler 2009 2nd rounder: Carolina Panthers

Brandon Tate 2009 3rd rounder: Cincinnati Bengals

 

All of these guys are complete busts (not one single established starter in the group, let alone Pro Bowlers) and 2009 2nd rounder Ron Brace and 2010 2nd rounder Jermaine Cunningham have been huge disappointments and could very well join the group.

 

Yeah all GMs have sizable misses but if it was anyone but Belichick calling the shots in New England, he would have been fired by now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's fine John but we are having a football discussion on the quality of the Cheatriots*** drafts.

 

The fact that we've regrettably only beat them once in recent memory does not supersede having this discussion.

 

 

Fair enough...a couple of thoughts

 

- The patriots have had high draft picks that have not worked out.....brandon merriweather?

- It gets overshadowed because of their core players....their defense was god awful last year....and rookies are not going to come in and change that

 

Personally....I think the patriots are on the decline.....but until we can prove we can stop Tom Brady its all talk

[MattM]

We can argue the merits of players talents and skills till we are blue in the face. The reality, however, points to overwhelming support that the Pats braintrust, led by BB, knows a thing or two about stocking a team with talented players. All personal biases aside, the Pats have won 10+ games each season dating back a decade, they have dominated the AFC during this time (having gone to the SB in 5 of the last 10 seasons winning 3 of them), and they just came off a another SB appearance where they were 1 missed play away from winning it all yet again.

 

One has to rationalize a TON to explain away such facts. But it's an exercise in futility if one is to remain objective in the process.

 

 

Dude--the point of the thread was to discuss the Pats* "drafting prowess" this year and you've been owned. Quit trying to change the subject and face it (or respond to my post above laying out pretty precisely why your original point on such prowess was ridiculous).

 

As for your attempted deflection, no one can deny that he's had a very good team year in and year out since Brady (the one other constant over that period) stepped to the fore. Let's see how Belicheat does without a HOF QB in a couple of years (and I use that term intentionally, since I suspect Brady will be done either by choice or not by choice after the 2013 season)--then we'll have a pretty good idea of who was responsible for these teams. That may actually turn out to be pretty funny, as payback is, well, you know....