Punch Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 If they like someone in this draft, they could draft him and make him 3rd string. Hoyer is no great shakes. That's true, but if that's how they view it, then a 3rd or 4th round pick is definitely more valuable than a 3rd string QB. It would be a move in line with New England's MO. Even if they think Mallett has potential and they pick another this year, it's not typical to have two understudies learning as the heir apparent at QB. If the Pats want to put all of their eggs in one developmental basket they may just not like the Mallett basket as much as someone else.
thewildrabbit Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 And again... does that at all take into account badly thrown balls? My guess is no... The catch rate statistic is subjective, as is drops. Who's fault is it when a ball is poorly thrown and the WR drops it? Are they suppose to catch everything within a specific radious of their hands even if its a poorly thrown ball? Edit: I'm not trying to just defend SJ. And I'm also not throwing Fitz under the bus, because I love him as the Bills QB. But I believe a little perspective is important. The offense as a whole failed. I wasn't trying to throw Stevie under the bus either, just pointing out that the guy wasn't a top draft pick, and he still has good games and bad. And that all QB's throw errant passes now and again, even Brady and Brees Yea I agree, the ENTIRE offense fell on its face after week 9 when Eric Wood went down and ended up on IR. Until that point both Fitz and the offense was playing pretty well, and had won a bunch of games. I suppose what Irks me the most is that some point at the QB and blame him for everything. some fans don't generally acknowledge that this current team is so limited for what it can do in the passing game because they only have one decent WR. A sort of scrub TE picked off the waiver wire. Some scrubs on that O line,and very little depth all around. Johnson barely broke the top 20 as a WR last year. Fitz is also currently in that 20 range category as a top QB. I believe both players could improve greatly by the addition of some quality help at WR-TE-O line. Lets hope they get that help this weekend As far as posters go I rank you in the upper tier. You are in the Brees, Brady etc category. As with you we are not always going to agree but you always give me pause to reconsider my positions because your positions are well reasoned. Let me get right to the point: You are missing my point. You are strenuously maintaining that I am not factoring in the limitations of the roster and the thinness of the roster when I evaluate Fitz as a middling qb. The caliber of team Fitz is playing on has very little to do in my evaluation of him. The second tier qbs you mentioned (I place Eli in the first tier) playing on better teams have nothing to do with how I rank them compared to Fitz. Your point they also would have struggled if they played on the ramshackle Bills last year is correct, but is not relevant to the discussion of how Fitz compares to them. Are you with a straight face going to say that Fitz is better than Rivers? I don't care what team Rivers plays for or Fitz plays for. Fitz is simply not as good and will never be as good as Rivers. Rivers is simply a better passer. Fitz will never have the accuracy that Rivers has. Fitz has limitations, such as consistent accuracy and arm strength, that will always be part of his makeup. I'm not suggesting that Fitz isn't a legitimate starter, because he is. I'm not suggesting that Fitz isn't without some valued qualities, such as mobility, leadership qualities and football intelligence, which he certainly possesses. If Jeff George had those Fitz traits he would be a first ballot hall of famer. The mistake you and many others make is the hometown factor sometimes clouds how one views and values one's own players. For some when Jason Peters plays for the Bills he is a beast. When he gets traded and plays for the Eagles he is a bum although he regularly makes the national league all-pro team. Yea I agree, the ENTIRE offense fell on its face after week 9 when Eric Wood went down and ended up on IR. Until that point both Fitz and the offense was playing pretty well, and had won a bunch of games. I suppose what Irks me the most is that some fans don't generally acknowledge that this team is so limited for what it can do in the passing game because they only have one decent WR. A sort of scrub TE picked off the waiver wire. Some scrubs on that O line,and very little depth. Johnson barely broke the top 20 as a WR last year. Fitz is also currently in that 20 range category as a top QB. Both could improve greatly by the addition of some quality help at WR-TE-O line. If you canvass the football publications and scan the internet most analysts rank Fitz in the mid to below mid range. In other words he is average at best. That is where I rank him. It shouldn't surprise anyone, although it does. If you watch a lot of different teams you will get a sense of the differennce between a very good qb and an average qb. In my view Fitz is what he is: average. NFL QB's don't play in a vacuum tube, they play on a team and most of the time they are only as good as the team around them. The world can see Fitz for what he has done in the past on bad teams, so that is how they judge him. I look at him and see a QB that has developed into a survivor. A journeyman QB that has learned how to survive on some of the worst teams I've ever witnessed. I honestly don't see how anyone can judge the caliber of a QB without looking at the team around him, makes no sense to me. I would compare Fitz right now to Rich Gannon. Gannon didn't fully develop until the late stages of his career while he was with the Raiders. He managed to play 17 years in the NFL and only becoming a top QB in Jon Grudens WCO in his 12th year.
Never NEVER Give-up Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 Mallet - maybe. If he's clean and if Chanix like him as a franchise QB than go for it. Maybe a 4th Rd pick, this year's 4th Rd'er if they like him that much. Remember, just because they have Brady, doesn't mean they are great judges of QB talent - otherwise they'd have drafted Brady earlier in the draft. So don't assume Mallet is trash just because they are dangling him.
cantankerous Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 I'd take mallett in a heartbeat. If he's clean and isn't a head case he'd totally be worth up to a 3rd. Some of you sound ridiculous saying you don't want him at all. I'd much rather have mallett backing up fitz than thigpen.
DDD Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 Brady will be 35 this year if Belecheat thought Hoyer or Mallet were franchise QB's do you think he'd trade them or develope them? Point well taken.
JohnC Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 I agree that quality QB play is necessary for a championship team. I do feel obliged to ask, how this argument rationalizes the impact of Newton's exceptional talents on the Panthers W/L record? I do believe they are drafting ahead of us, exceptional QB and all. Whether Newton is playing on a poor team or the record is worse or better than the Bills really doesn't relate to the central point I have been making in my numerous posts on the topic of Fitz and the caliber of qb he is. Cam Newton is an immensely more talented qb than Fitz. That is in disputable. If you ask 32 GMs which qb they would prefer having right now all 32 GMs would say Newton, and that includes Buffalo's GM. Also curious, do you regard Bradford as a mediocre or poor QB? He certainly isn't living up to his #1 draft choice billing as the Rams got to trade down from #2 pick. Do you think maybe, just maybe, playing on a bad team has altered his abilities, and playing on a good team might improve his impact somewhat? Bradford is a young and developing qb who assuming he stays healthy will in the not too distant future become a very good qb. In my view he has immensely more talent and potential than Fitz has. Again, if you ask 32 GMs whether they would rather now have Bradford or Fitz as their starting qb all 32 GMs, including Nix would say Bradford. Don't let yourself get drawn into the distracting issue of whether a qb is on a good or bad team and how that affects the particulaar qb. That isn't the central issue here. The issue is the talent level of Fitz and how he compares to the other qbs in the league. In my view he is average at best.
The Senator Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 I'd take mallett in a heartbeat. If he's clean and isn't a head case he'd totally be worth up to a 3rd. Some of you sound ridiculous saying you don't want him at all. I'd much rather have mallett backing up fitz than thigpen. And this would be because you've actually seen Mallett play in a regular-season NFL game? (No one else has.) Or you are basing this bold claim on Mallett's collective body of NFL career experience holding a clipboard and "warming the pine" last season as an NFL rookie and *NE's 3rd-string QB, inactive for 15 of 16 games???
cantankerous Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 I've seen Thigpen play enough to know I'd rather have Mallett. Of course if Mallett is a meth head then of course I'd stay away.
3rdand12 Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 I would do no business with Billichecks if i were Nix. And he wont. There's no friendship between them and they are both VERY competitive. I would consider not doing business with anyone in the AFC and especially the patriots FO. Just try to keep in mind kids, they are the enemy and every thing we do should be to gain an advantage. The fat Kid Ryan got some mileage out of that defensive end who was a bust for us. But when coaches get arrogant bad things happen to the team soon enough and they are going to soon. I'm hard headed so no mallet just because he is being offered up by the bastage Patriots. That fellow is up to no good again. He was the one who is still giving Ryan meth and heroins and now trying to get a third from him. just Evil. good OP sir
eball Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 I've seen Thigpen play enough to know I'd rather have Mallett. Of course if Mallett is a meth head then of course I'd stay away. A third round pick is more valuable than either of them.
Bruce Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 "Patriots Entertaining". You know what's really going to be entertaining me this season from the Patriots? When we face them twice and Mario Williams and the rejuvenated Bills pass rush has Brady constantly on his keister because Light has retired and we are just plain better. Aw, Giselle. Please make little Towmy feel better. Lots of hugs and Kleenex. YEAH!! GO BILLS!!
Orton's Arm Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 You mean the 3 time pro bowl qb that threw for over 4400 yards for us in a single season? In case you're wondering that's about 1000 yards more than Jim Kelly's best. I'll take zero pocket presence and 4400 yards any day of the week. Yards per season is not the correct measurement, because it's so dependent on a QB's number of pass attempts. A much better measure is yards per pass attempt. Jim Kelly averaged 7.4 yards per pass attempt over the course of his career. During Fitz's best season, he averaged 6.8 yards per pass attempt. Trent Edwards' career average is 6.5 yards per pass attempt. Fitzpatrick is better than Edwards, but not nearly as good as Kelly.
Alphadawg7 Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 A third round pick is more valuable than either of them. Mallet is the best pure passer from last years draft, and I have heard some scouts talking the last couple of days since NE talked of making Mallet available that he would be the best pure passer even in this draft. Doesn't mean everyone would say that or that they would choose him over Luck (they wouldnt), but it does speak volumes about his throwing ability and potential as a pocket passer. If it was not for the off field questions, he was a certain top first round pick in either last years or this years draft...that to me is worth more than a 3rd round pick...getting top QB talent and a very rare skill set of throwing ability for a 3rd round pick. Especially for a team who has yet to have a real franchise QB since Kelly retired. His skill set resembles a style like a Brady, Manning, Montana, etc (no, I am not comparing him to them as he has not even started his career yet, just saying the QB style of play is the same style as those guys...pure pocket passing). Brady, Manning, Montana, etc are all slow as molasses and slower than Mallet, so the common comments people say of him being a statue that one so frequently sees on here is silly. You do not have to be fast to play QB and to play it well as I just named 3 of the 5 best QB's of all time and they are all very nonathletic and slow as dirt (and two of them dominate in the modern NFL right now). Bottom line, 4 years from now I think when we look back at that draft, passing on him in round 3 was a mistake given the value it presented.
Doc Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 Mallet is the best pure passer from last years draft, and I have heard some scouts talking the last couple of days since NE talked of making Mallet available that he would be the best pure passer even in this draft. Doesn't mean everyone would say that or that they would choose him over Luck (they wouldnt), but it does speak volumes about his throwing ability and potential as a pocket passer. If it was not for the off field questions, he was a certain top first round pick in either last years or this years draft...that to me is worth more than a 3rd round pick...getting top QB talent and a very rare skill set of throwing ability for a 3rd round pick. Especially for a team who has yet to have a real franchise QB since Kelly retired. His skill set resembles a style like a Brady, Manning, Montana, etc (no, I am not comparing him to them as he has not even started his career yet, just saying the QB style of play is the same style as those guys...pure pocket passing). Brady, Manning, Montana, etc are all slow as molasses and slower than Mallet, so the common comments people say of him being a statue that one so frequently sees on here is silly. You do not have to be fast to play QB and to play it well as I just named 3 of the 5 best QB's of all time and they are all very nonathletic and slow as dirt (and two of them dominate in the modern NFL right now). Bottom line, 4 years from now I think when we look back at that draft, passing on him in round 3 was a mistake given the value it presented. If he amounts to nothing, then there was no value lost. Again the Pats wouldn't just come out and say they're willing to trade him unless they thought he was worthless. Because no one will trade more than a 3rd rounder for a guy who hasn't even thrown an NFL pass yet. He'll need to showcase himself a la Cassel did, and even then it's caveat emptor.
Alphadawg7 Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 If he amounts to nothing, then there was no value lost. Again the Pats wouldn't just come out and say they're willing to trade him unless they thought he was worthless. Because no one will trade more than a 3rd rounder for a guy who hasn't even thrown an NFL pass yet. He'll need to showcase himself a la Cassel did, and even then it's caveat emptor. See this is where we disagree. NE does not need a QB right now, they want to win Super Bowls. Brady easily have 3 to 5 years potentially at very high level play left in him. If they can add more pieces to win with this team, then thats valuable to them because its about winning now. So, just because they are willing to part with him for the right trade does not mean they don't think the kid can play. They have a lot of holes to fill on this team right now, and backup QB is not one of them as they have two good prospects on the bench. Brady has never missed a game in his career outside of the fluke tearing of his ACL. So, he is pretty durable. They need to fill a lot of holes on D, now on the OL with one of their top guys retiring, and there is buzz they want to move up and get Barron...so stock piling more picks and trying to MAXIMIZE what time they have left with one of the greatest QB's to play the game makes a lot of sense for them.
rstencel Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 Mallet is the best pure passer from last years draft, and I have heard some scouts talking the last couple of days since NE talked of making Mallet available that he would be the best pure passer even in this draft. Doesn't mean everyone would say that or that they would choose him over Luck (they wouldnt), but it does speak volumes about his throwing ability and potential as a pocket passer. If it was not for the off field questions, he was a certain top first round pick in either last years or this years draft...that to me is worth more than a 3rd round pick...getting top QB talent and a very rare skill set of throwing ability for a 3rd round pick. Especially for a team who has yet to have a real franchise QB since Kelly retired. His skill set resembles a style like a Brady, Manning, Montana, etc (no, I am not comparing him to them as he has not even started his career yet, just saying the QB style of play is the same style as those guys...pure pocket passing). Brady, Manning, Montana, etc are all slow as molasses and slower than Mallet, so the common comments people say of him being a statue that one so frequently sees on here is silly. You do not have to be fast to play QB and to play it well as I just named 3 of the 5 best QB's of all time and they are all very nonathletic and slow as dirt (and two of them dominate in the modern NFL right now). Bottom line, 4 years from now I think when we look back at that draft, passing on him in round 3 was a mistake given the value it presented. Sounds like the argument about why Leaf is better than Manning for some reason.
Doc Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 See this is where we disagree. NE does not need a QB right now, they want to win Super Bowls. Brady easily have 3 to 5 years potentially at very high level play left in him. If they can add more pieces to win with this team, then thats valuable to them because its about winning now. So, just because they are willing to part with him for the right trade does not mean they don't think the kid can play. They have a lot of holes to fill on this team right now, and backup QB is not one of them as they have two good prospects on the bench. Brady has never missed a game in his career outside of the fluke tearing of his ACL. So, he is pretty durable. They need to fill a lot of holes on D, now on the OL with one of their top guys retiring, and there is buzz they want to move up and get Barron...so stock piling more picks and trying to MAXIMIZE what time they have left with one of the greatest QB's to play the game makes a lot of sense for them. The Pats don't know how much longer they'll have Brady/if he'll stay healthy. Odds are he gets injured within the next year or so. So having a good backup/future QB is far more important. They have Mallett for another 3 years as a EFA/RFA, meaning he'll be cheap. They can develop him like they did Cassel 4+ years ago and either trade him for far more if he gets a chance to play and plays well, or have him become the starter when Brady declines. A 3rd or 4th round pick they might get for him won't help them win the SB now.
dayman Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 Brady will be 35 this year if Belecheat thought Hoyer or Mallet were franchise QB's do you think he'd trade them or develope them? Brady will still be in the league as long as Mallet in all likely hood (from here on out) barring injury.
Ray Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 Pure passer, can make every throw etc.....so could JP Losman, Rob Johnson and Drew Bledsoe. Unfortunately it is one of at least a dozen variables and not the most important. There are so many factors for a QB and decision making and intelligence tend to be more important in today's NFL. The criticism on Brady (even after winning his first two SBs) was his arm strength was only average. If you can get Mallett for a 5th or 6th sure, get him but not much more than that.
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