Nanker Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 Year Winner LOT Year Drafted Round Drafted Position # Drafted By Losing Team LOT Year Drafted Round Drafted Position # Drafted By 2000 Baltimore Jonathan Ogden 1996 1 4th Ravens NY Giants Lomas Brown 1985 1 6th Detroit Lions 2001 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* StLouis Rams Orlando Pace 1997 1 1st SL Rams 2002 Tampa Bay Roman Oben 1996 3 91st NY Giants Oakland Barry Sims 1999 undrafted Oakland 2003 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* Carolina Todd Steussie 1994 1 19th Minnesota 2004 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* Philadelphia Tra Thomas 1998 1 11th Philly 2005 Pittsburgh Marvel Smith 2000 2 38th Pittsburgh Seattle Walter Jones 1997 1 6th Seattle 2006 Indianopolis Tarik Glenn 1997 1 19th Indy Chicago John Tait 1999 1 14th Kansas City 2007 NY Giants David Diehl 2003 5 160th Giants NE Pats* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* 2008 Pittsburgh Max Starks 2004 3 75th Pittsburgh Arizona Mike Gandy 2001 3 68th Chicago 2009 NO Saints Jermon Bushrod 2007 4 125th Saints Indianapolis Charlie Johnson 2006 6 199th Indy 2010 GB Packers Chad Clifton 2000 2 44th Packers Pittsburgh Jonathan Scott 2006 5 141st Detroit Lions 2011 NY Giants William Beatty 2009 2 60th Giants NE Pats* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* In the last 11 Superbowls only two winning teams drafted their LOT in the first round.
Mark Long Beach Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 Year Winner LOT Year Drafted Round Drafted Position # Drafted By Losing Team LOT Year Drafted Round Drafted Position # Drafted By 2000 Baltimore Jonathan Ogden 1996 1 4th Ravens NY Giants Lomas Brown 1985 1 6th Detroit Lions 2001 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* StLouis Rams Orlando Pace 1997 1 1st SL Rams 2002 Tampa Bay Roman Oben 1996 3 91st NY Giants Oakland Barry Sims 1999 undrafted Oakland 2003 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* Carolina Todd Steussie 1994 1 19th Minnesota 2004 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* Philadelphia Tra Thomas 1998 1 11th Philly 2005 Pittsburgh Marvel Smith 2000 2 38th Pittsburgh Seattle Walter Jones 1997 1 6th Seattle 2006 Indianopolis Tarik Glenn 1997 1 19th Indy Chicago John Tait 1999 1 14th Kansas City 2007 NY Giants David Diehl 2003 5 160th Giants NE Pats* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* 2008 Pittsburgh Max Starks 2004 3 75th Pittsburgh Arizona Mike Gandy 2001 3 68th Chicago 2009 NO Saints Jermon Bushrod 2007 4 125th Saints Indianapolis Charlie Johnson 2006 6 199th Indy 2010 GB Packers Chad Clifton 2000 2 44th Packers Pittsburgh Jonathan Scott 2006 5 141st Detroit Lions 2011 NY Giants William Beatty 2009 2 60th Giants NE Pats* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* In the last 11 Superbowls only two winning teams drafted their LOT in the first round. So from the winning superbowl team(very small sample) two 1st rounders and 6 second rounders. 8 out of 11 sure sounds like you need to invest a 1st or 2nd round pick in an LT. I'm not completely of that opinion, as I think Bell (7th round) was good enough, and I think that Peters (undrafted) was good enough. But your evidence does show that it's way more likely than not to have needed a 1st or 2nd rounder.
Nanker Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 I guess that's the point. It doesn't HAVE to be a 1st round pick. Teams have won the big one without a first round pick as their LT. But the if the guy's good - he'll be good enough to take in the 2nd round at the latest. Hey, Matt Light was picked in the 2nd and he shows up in five places in that chart. Look at the teams that got there with someone else's original draft pick. That to me is a strong metric that says you should draft your own LOT and develop him.
Doc Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 So looks like no LT at 10. Good. I also doubt they go defense, although if they do, my guess would be Kuechly. I'm thinking it's WR, but hopefully they take Fleener after a trade down.
truth on hold Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) Do you see them taking fleener after paying chandler ? Edited April 18, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack
Doc Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 Do you see them taking fleener after paying chandler ? Chandler got a 2-year $5.45M deal with just $1.25M guaranteed. It's not an impediment to adding another WR. And in 2 years, they'll probably need to find his replacement anyway.
billsfan89 Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Nix has shown a penchant for picking up a lot of waiver wire players on the O-line. I suspect he will take Floyd or Kuechly at 10. Either way I like the pick as I think Kuechly has a big impact on the D, although I would prefer Floyd as you can find good LB's in rounds 2 and 3.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Unfortunately, the Bills recent past is full of picks that fit the mold of "guys we think we can develop into something special". It hasn't been a sound strategy and the results prove it. That's not a very useful comment. What is your opinion of Hairston? Also, do you think the Bills futility at choosing and developing players is continuing under Nix and Gailey?
BuffaloFan68 Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 How about BPA in the first such as Floyd, Richardson, etc - then Mike Adams in the second and then Big Brock in the 3rd? Of course this would have to go with some good luck on our side.
Bill from NYC Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 That's not a very useful comment. What is your opinion of Hairston? Also, do you think the Bills futility at choosing and developing players is continuing under Nix and Gailey? Useful comment? Not sure what this means SJB. If the poster would have said that the 2010 draft was great (and it did suck btw), would that remark have been "useful." The 2011 draft looks like it was a good one. For the Bills, it was great when compared to their usual disasters. This is the year for Buddy to show what he can do imo in terms of the draft. Last year we picked 3rd. We picked 9th when Nix tanked in 2010. This is not to say that Buddy didn't do a good job in terms of bringing in ufas and udfas. He did well in this regard. But this year, we pick early and often enough to improve this team a whole lot in 8 days. I have faith in Nix, but he has more to prove. What we have as fans is hope, but I'm quite used to this.
KOKBILLS Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Year Winner LOT Year Drafted Round Drafted Position # Drafted By Losing Team LOT Year Drafted Round Drafted Position # Drafted By 2000 Baltimore Jonathan Ogden 1996 1 4th Ravens NY Giants Lomas Brown 1985 1 6th Detroit Lions 2001 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* StLouis Rams Orlando Pace 1997 1 1st SL Rams 2002 Tampa Bay Roman Oben 1996 3 91st NY Giants Oakland Barry Sims 1999 undrafted Oakland 2003 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* Carolina Todd Steussie 1994 1 19th Minnesota 2004 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* Philadelphia Tra Thomas 1998 1 11th Philly 2005 Pittsburgh Marvel Smith 2000 2 38th Pittsburgh Seattle Walter Jones 1997 1 6th Seattle 2006 Indianopolis Tarik Glenn 1997 1 19th Indy Chicago John Tait 1999 1 14th Kansas City 2007 NY Giants David Diehl 2003 5 160th Giants NE Pats* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* 2008 Pittsburgh Max Starks 2004 3 75th Pittsburgh Arizona Mike Gandy 2001 3 68th Chicago 2009 NO Saints Jermon Bushrod 2007 4 125th Saints Indianapolis Charlie Johnson 2006 6 199th Indy 2010 GB Packers Chad Clifton 2000 2 44th Packers Pittsburgh Jonathan Scott 2006 5 141st Detroit Lions 2011 NY Giants William Beatty 2009 2 60th Giants NE Pats* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* In the last 11 Superbowls only two winning teams drafted their LOT in the first round. The fact that 8 out of the 22 (the last 11 years) were 2nd Round Picks definitely surprises me...That's more than the 6 1st rounders in that span... I think it tells me that when you hear some Folks say Cordy Glenn is not an NFL LT, and they would not take him till the 2nd Round, there's a good chance they're wrong about how effective he'll be on the blindside...Or if a Kid like Martin falls into the 2nd, he still may very well be a good LT in time... Thanks for that research btw...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Unfortunately, the Bills recent past is full of picks that fit the mold of "guys we think we can develop into something special". It hasn't been a sound strategy and the results prove it. That's not a very useful comment. What is your opinion of Hairston? Also, do you think the Bills futility at choosing and developing players is continuing under Nix and Gailey? Useful comment? Not sure what this means SJB. If the poster would have said that the 2010 draft was great (and it did suck btw), would that remark have been "useful." The 2011 draft looks like it was a good one. For the Bills, it was great when compared to their usual disasters. This is the year for Buddy to show what he can do imo in terms of the draft. Last year we picked 3rd. We picked 9th when Nix tanked in 2010. This is not to say that Buddy didn't do a good job in terms of bringing in ufas and udfas. He did well in this regard. But this year, we pick early and often enough to improve this team a whole lot in 8 days. I have faith in Nix, but he has more to prove. What we have as fans is hope, but I'm quite used to this. Well Bill, by "useful comment" I mean a few things. Sisyphus often makes flip, cryptic, somewhat negative comments without really developing an idea, IMO. As long as I've been on the board I've considered him to be a cursory and negative poster which is fine because among a bunch of reasons, the Bills have sucked and you can't argue results. But he said "recent past." You (Bill) talk about 2010 and 2011. When Sisyphus says "recent past" I'm interested in whether he believes that the goings on at One Bills Drive are on the same trajectory as when the show was being produced by Levy, Brandon, Jauron and Company. I want to know if he thinks that the status quo has remained the same or whether he thinks that Nixley and Company are a positive change and are doing a good job. I want to know if he means 2010 and 2011 when he says "recent past" or whether he's including the entire decade of futility. I guess I'd like to know what he means by "recent past."
BillsVet Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Year Winner LOT Year Drafted Round Drafted Position # Drafted By Losing Team LOT Year Drafted Round Drafted Position # Drafted By 2000 Baltimore Jonathan Ogden 1996 1 4th Ravens NY Giants Lomas Brown 1985 1 6th Detroit Lions 2001 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* StLouis Rams Orlando Pace 1997 1 1st SL Rams 2002 Tampa Bay Roman Oben 1996 3 91st NY Giants Oakland Barry Sims 1999 undrafted Oakland 2003 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* Carolina Todd Steussie 1994 1 19th Minnesota 2004 NE Patriots* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* Philadelphia Tra Thomas 1998 1 11th Philly 2005 Pittsburgh Marvel Smith 2000 2 38th Pittsburgh Seattle Walter Jones 1997 1 6th Seattle 2006 Indianopolis Tarik Glenn 1997 1 19th Indy Chicago John Tait 1999 1 14th Kansas City 2007 NY Giants David Diehl 2003 5 160th Giants NE Pats* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* 2008 Pittsburgh Max Starks 2004 3 75th Pittsburgh Arizona Mike Gandy 2001 3 68th Chicago 2009 NO Saints Jermon Bushrod 2007 4 125th Saints Indianapolis Charlie Johnson 2006 6 199th Indy 2010 GB Packers Chad Clifton 2000 2 44th Packers Pittsburgh Jonathan Scott 2006 5 141st Detroit Lions 2011 NY Giants William Beatty 2009 2 60th Giants NE Pats* Matt Light 2001 2 48th NE Pats* In the last 11 Superbowls only two winning teams drafted their LOT in the first round. Debating the quality of an OL is a nuanced argument not summed up by stating SB winning OLT draft positions. The fact remains that QB play makes an OL better and vice versa. I could just as easily point out that a great QB significantly offsets the need for a premier OT. And I'd say if you teamed a very good OLT with a very good QB an offense can do amazing things. 30 NFL teams have used a 1st or 2nd round pick on an OT since 2006. The ones who haven't? Oakland and Buffalo.
Pete Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 I like Mike, but he's not infallibile and missed a few like anyone else. Mayock rocked that draft IMO. Sure Gabbert sucks- but the rest of the rankings are pretty spot on
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Mayock rocked that draft IMO. Sure Gabbert sucks- but the rest of the rankings are pretty spot on He was way off on Cam Newton. It wasn't till about a week before the draft that he moved Newton up ahead of Jake Locker… but still behind Gabbert. In fact I believe Cam Newton didn't make Mayock's Top 20 prospects. I like Mayock too but too many people around here treat his word like gospel.
Bill from NYC Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Debating the quality of an OL is a nuanced argument not summed up by stating SB winning OLT draft positions. The fact remains that QB play makes an OL better and vice versa. I could just as easily point out that a great QB significantly offsets the need for a premier OT. And I'd say if you teamed a very good OLT with a very good QB an offense can do amazing things. 30 NFL teams have used a 1st or 2nd round pick on an OT since 2006. The ones who haven't? Oakland and Buffalo. This is absolutely amazing BV. Both owners were elderly AFC men, and both were burned by early OL draft picks (M.Williams and Gallery). It is especially odd wrt the Raiders. The best Raider team ever was the one in 77 who beat the Vikings in the SB. And they did so in large part because they had one of the best offensive lines ever (2 hall of famers).
Sisyphean Bills Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 I guess I'd like to know what he means by "recent past." As long as you're getting personal ... your reply history to my comments is one of condescending tone with a dash of arrogance. I've told you before that your self-proclaimed abilities at mind reading are not up to snuff. When you talk to people face to face, do you start each conversation with a personal slight or hint of superiority? Do people respond well? In recent years, the Bills have drafted a number of project players and guys that they projected to new positions. Aaron Maybin is a prime example. I know other Bills fans that have said the same exact thing on this board in fact. As plainly as it can be said: I meant the recent era (decade plus) of Bills futility. You suggest, not based on asking for clarification, that somehow an attack on Buddy Nix had been made and some sort of defense had to be raised. That's sort of an interesting insight in its own way, but had nothing whatsoever to do with what I was thinking at the time. And, I'm sure you'll think that I am just "making **** up" in this response as you have in the past, so I'm seriously not sure why I bother... As far as Buddy Nix, I am taking the sensible course of the wait and see approach. I have neither praised nor attacked either of the last two drafts, despite what falsehoods you may want to credit to me. Quite to the contrary, while it was very popular on this board to blast the pick of CJ Spiller, I actually defended the pick initially. Debate can be used as a learning tool, and it isn't a bad thing to have people express contrasting viewpoints. This is a discussion board, and it wouldn't be at all interesting if every poster on here was required to lay prostrate at the feet of the hero-for-now, Buddy Nix, for example.
Kelly the Dog Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 He was way off on Cam Newton. It wasn't till about a week before the draft that he moved Newton up ahead of Jake Locker… but still behind Gabbert. In fact I believe Cam Newton didn't make Mayock's Top 20 prospects. I like Mayock too but too many people around here treat his word like gospel. From what I recall Mayock saying about Newton had little to do with him as a player, it was all mental. Mayock questioned one thing the most: whether or not Newton had the burning desire to be a great NFL player, and then he also questions whether he could read defenses and such, since he never had to do it in college. That is what dropped Newton way down on his chart. I don't know where it came from, that he didnt think, or more precisely, he wasn't sure that Newton wanted to be a great pro, but that was Mayock's knock on him. It was not as if he thought he couldn't run and throw with accuracy or had bad mechanics or couldn't physically play the position of QB at the very top level.
Nanker Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Debating the quality of an OL is a nuanced argument not summed up by stating SB winning OLT draft positions. The fact remains that QB play makes an OL better and vice versa. I could just as easily point out that a great QB significantly offsets the need for a premier OT. And I'd say if you teamed a very good OLT with a very good QB an offense can do amazing things. 30 NFL teams have used a 1st or 2nd round pick on an OT since 2006. The ones who haven't? Oakland and Buffalo. Here are the names of all the OTs that were picked from 2000 - 2010 in the first and second round. Players names that are bolded were picked before the Bills were on the board. i.e., unless we traded up - these guys were gone and we had no chance at taking them. 2000 1st Chris Samuels Washington Stockar McDougle Detroit Chris McIntosh Seattle Bills Pick: Erik Flowers 2000 2nd Marvel Smith Pittsburgh Chad Clifton Green Bay Todd Wade Miami Bills Pick: Travares Tillman 2001 1st Leonard Davis Arizona Kenyatta Walker Tampa Jeff Backus Detroit Bills Pick: Nate Clements 2001 2nd Maurice Williams Jacksonville Matt Light NE Pats* Aaron Schobel 2002 1st Mike Williams Buffalo Bryant Mckinnie Minny Levi Jones Cincy Marc Colombo Chicago Bills Pick: Mike Williams 2002 2nd Mike Pearson Jax Chester Pitts Houston Langston Walker Oakland Josh Reed 2003 1st Jordan Gross Carolina George Foster Denver Kwame Harris San Fran Bills Pick: Willis McGahee 2003 2nd Jon Stinchcomb NO Saints Bills Pick: Chris Kelsay 2004 1st Robert Gallery Oakland Vernon Carey Miami Bills Pick: Lee Evans, JP Lostman 2004 2nd Jacob Rogers Dallas Bills Pick: No 2nd - used it on JP 2005 1st Jammal Brown NO Saints Alex Barron St Louis Bills Pick: Traded to Dallas for JP 2005 2nd Michael Roos Tennessee Khalif Barnes Jax Adam Terry Baltimore Bills Pick: Roscoe Parrish 2006 1st D'Brickashaw Ferguson JESTS Bills Pick: Donte Whitner, John McCargo 2006 2nd Winston Justice Philly Daryn Colledge GBP Marcus McNeill SD Chargers Andrew Whitworth Cincy Jeremy Trueblood Tampa Bills Pick: No 2nd - used on McCargo 2007 1st Joe Thomas Cleveland Levi Brown Arizona Joe Staley San Fran Bills Pick: Marshawn Lynch 2007 2nd Tony Ugoh Indy Bills Pick: Paul Posluszny 2008 1st Jake Long Miami Ryan Clady Denver Chris Williams Chicago Gosder Cherilus Detroit Jeff Otah Carolina Sam Baker Atlanta Duane Brown Houston Bills Pick: Leodis McKelvin 2008 2nd Mike Pollak Indy Bills Pick: James Hardy 2009 1st Jason Smith St Louis Andre Smith Cincy Eugene Monroe Jax Michael Oher Baltimore Bills Pick: Aaron Maybin 2009 2nd Eben Britton Jax Phil Loadholt Minny Sebastian Vollmer NE Pats* William Beatty Giants Bills Pick: Jarius Byrd 2010 1st Trent Williams Washington Russell Okung Seattle Anthony Davis San Fran Brian Bulaga Packers Bills Pick: C.J. Spiller 2010 2nd Rodger Saffold St Louis Vladimir Ducasse JESTS Charles Brown NO Saints Bills Pick: Torell Troup So, just going from 2006 - which is when the doom cloud was in full bloom: By taking McCargo we passed up on at least three good players in a Tackle rich draft. 2007 - We took Lynch instead of Joe Staley and Poz instead of Tony Ugoh (who Pollian admitted was a mistake). 2008 - was nearly as bad as 2006. In taking McLovin we passed up on a lot of 1st round Tackle talent. 2009 - added insult to injury - Error Maybenot instead of Oher (or really, any other player that could fog a mirror). But do you really question the pick of Byrd Man in the 2nd?... I don't. 2010 - CJ or Anthony Davis or Brian the Guard Bulaga, Vladimir Ducasse or Charles Brown?... I think the jury's still out on that one.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 20, 2012 Posted April 20, 2012 As long as you're getting personal ... your reply history to my comments is one of condescending tone with a dash of arrogance. I've told you before that your self-proclaimed abilities at mind reading are not up to snuff. When you talk to people face to face, do you start each conversation with a personal slight or hint of superiority? Do people respond well? In recent years, the Bills have drafted a number of project players and guys that they projected to new positions. Aaron Maybin is a prime example. I know other Bills fans that have said the same exact thing on this board in fact. As plainly as it can be said: I meant the recent era (decade plus) of Bills futility. You suggest, not based on asking for clarification, that somehow an attack on Buddy Nix had been made and some sort of defense had to be raised. That's sort of an interesting insight in its own way, but had nothing whatsoever to do with what I was thinking at the time. And, I'm sure you'll think that I am just "making **** up" in this response as you have in the past, so I'm seriously not sure why I bother... As far as Buddy Nix, I am taking the sensible course of the wait and see approach. I have neither praised nor attacked either of the last two drafts, despite what falsehoods you may want to credit to me. Quite to the contrary, while it was very popular on this board to blast the pick of CJ Spiller, I actually defended the pick initially. Debate can be used as a learning tool, and it isn't a bad thing to have people express contrasting viewpoints. This is a discussion board, and it wouldn't be at all interesting if every poster on here was required to lay prostrate at the feet of the hero-for-now, Buddy Nix, for example. Sorry to offend you. Bill inquired as to my point and I guess I got a bit superfluous. My apologies. I was very curious on your Nixley take and I didn't view your comments as an attack on him/them. I did want to know what your position was on the current regime because as I stated before, besides a brief criticism, you don't often expound on a viewpoint. It seems that you're saying that you're taking a wait and see attitude but that you aren't convinced that the present regime is beyond making another Maybin error. I guess the third year will make things clearer. From what I recall Mayock saying about Newton had little to do with him as a player, it was all mental. Mayock questioned one thing the most: whether or not Newton had the burning desire to be a great NFL player, and then he also questions whether he could read defenses and such, since he never had to do it in college. That is what dropped Newton way down on his chart. I don't know where it came from, that he didnt think, or more precisely, he wasn't sure that Newton wanted to be a great pro, but that was Mayock's knock on him. It was not as if he thought he couldn't run and throw with accuracy or had bad mechanics or couldn't physically play the position of QB at the very top level. Be that as it may (I never use that expression but it seems fitting), everyone knows the main ingredient in an NFL QB's success is what's between his ears. Pretty clearly Mayock didn't think Newton had it upstairs as far as reading defenses (intellect) or his desire and motivation. Bottom line, Mayock was most likely very wrong about Newton. Love Mayock but many people here seem to treat his opinions as gospel.
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